Holy Sh*t Play have killed off HKL's website! ;-)

[Killer Meteor]

I expect the trailer was for a reissue

And LAOF is Cantonese. Ninja was a good release

[Killer Meteor]

But why don't they have the right idea? Brian White demonstrated early on that he was willing to crop the films to sell them to teenagers. I know full well that the HK producers don't give a damn, either about preserving the films or in quality control of the DVDs, but why should UK and US based producers, who do know how to handle the films within their limts and yet screw them up, do so?

Because there's about a thousand intricate problems that faces a company when they decide to take on the extremely uphill task of bringing old and new HK films onto DVD. For a startm you're working in a very niché segment of the market, even at the height of its popularity here in the U.K, Asian cinema has always been a tough sell. A guy like Brian White has to balance his idealist view of bringing HK classics to mainstream UK audiences with the highest quality with the simple fact that to remaster these films costs a shitload of money - there's no two ways about that. Add to that the fact that the HK distributors don't give a fuck about what masters they send out, and you've got a serious problem.

HKL' early DVDs have print damage and shite audio because that's what they were supplied with. Sure they could've gone back to Megastar and demanded better masters, but that costs time and money on both sides - and certainly I doubt Megastar would be motivated to do so - certainly HKL wouldn't be when tight deadlines come into play.

And also, it's more a matter of whether to decide to spend a shitload of money on one classic film, or spread that budget across a whole slew of releases. When you're faced with modest sales and tight profit margins on even the most popular, classic "oldie" then this just isn't a difficult choice to make at all. The whole issue of cropping is tied into this, it's simple pragmatic sense that a 16:9 film will appeal to mainstream buyers more than a 2.35:1. When they first came out HKL obviously decided to crop their films because of this, but they did later change their policy. Ignoring the early cropped titles and Legend of a Fighter (which was one of the earliest titles that they worked on), the cropping in later films like Police Story and Prodigal Son were probably a result of bad telecining - and certainly are no where near the level of cropping you get when shifting from 2.35:1 - 1.85:1. Of course, the way you lot go on about it, you'd think it was.

The simple reality is that only us, the hardcore fanbase, notice and are even remotely bothered by the lesser cropping/stretching/5.1 remastering issues that plague HKL/IVL releases. How big an affect do you think us not buying these titles really makes on the sales of these DVDs? I'm willing to put good money on the fact that all our protestations over the poor quality of HKL' releases of PS1 & PS2 had absolutely no effect on their sales.

So if you really think about it, it's a miracle that any HK film distributor ever listen and even remotely attempt to pander to the teeny-tiny-miniscule hardcore fanbase and ramp up their DVD production budgets with costly & time consuming remastering & sourcing, when they know it's going to have very little effect on their sales.

It's all about motivation and simple numbers. A guy like Brian White will buy the rights to a whole slew of films and think "well I could do a bang up job on Eastern Condors, or release an extra X amount of film instead".

So why are the same mistakes been made with Dragon Dynasty?

I don't blame HKL for what they are given. I blame them for making what they were given worse!

[HungFist]

This is what peeves me off about asian film fans, they're the most negative bunch of fans on the internet imo. You can usually split them into 3 categories:

HK Film Fans: Can't handle flaws in transfers, think every HK film print was put into stasis the moment they were struck. They also can't accept that the people who predominantly make and watch these films - I.E The Chinese - just don't give a fuck. I don't think there have been many western DVD release of HK films that have been a success because of Asian Film Forum posters buying it, it's the casual fans who make or break releases, and again they don't give a fuck.

JPN Film Fans: Biggest film snobs in existence.

KRN Film Fans: Deluded, think every concept or theme in Korean films are completely original and not lifted from US comedies or Japanese dramas. (Admittedly the sheer awfulness of Korea's output over the last 3yrs or so has changed this viewpoint)

Post of the month

JPN Film Fans: Biggest film snobs in existence.

Thanks. That's the greatest compliment I’ve heard since the last time you called me snob

[chenlung]

Legend of a Fighter should have been in Cantonese right? Given the rareness of the film and the fact its a title not many have heard of, shouldnt we be grateful stuff like LoAF and Ninja in the Dragons Den is released at all? Back in the day, I was amazed at restoration job HKL did on the Bruce Lee CE titles - the colours on the CE were striking though (eg Bruce's hair being brown).
I wonder why the HK trailer for FIST is still only in Cantonese, despite HKL releasing FIST with the original Mandarin audio?

HKL's priority wasn't with a trailer, so they just stuck on the old Media Asia trailer with the wrong ratio and missing bars in the opening audio. A 1972 trailer is seemingly rare (FS currently prove to have the Cantonese one only). The only relation is a 1974 UK one which is likely a truncated version of it.

'Legend Of A Fighter' is available in an inferior, unremastered, cropped (with exception to the 2:35:1 squished into 4:3 at the credits), cut-off-subtitled, Cantonese and Mandarin Mei Ah VCD (which had different information and to an extent, made HKL look like everything was not only cropped, but differently matted). It is very slightly cut, replaced title card (and ending I think) and Mandarin, but it's the best available.

'Ninja' was a nice release (except for the half-dubtitle/subtitle track, alleged cuts, Mandarin only trailer and a slightly beefed up 2.0 mix), but bootlegs were out I believe.

So neither film hasn't been released elsewhere and despite the madness in some of the contents, they're still the preferred versions in comparison to others.

[Markgway]

I though HKL Miracles sounded fine. the Joy Sales had original mono but changed title card so I didn't bother upgrading

The JS image is quite poor compared to the HKL.

Yeah Iron Monkey is dead quiet. You can barely hear the dialogue in places

The original mono was the only good thing about the IVL. Again HKL's image was superior.

I thought that's what you guys wanted (in the bass)? A Mono soundtrack will have virtually no bass so I'd think a 5.1 remix with low bass would please you, no?

That's incorrect. Mono tracks have a much stronger bass on most occasions than 5.1 remixes. Even on blockbusters like Octopussy I noticed it. With HK-style remixes there's a giant gulf in quality.

I don't blame HKL for what they are given. I blame them for making what they were given worse!

That's true. Like needless cropping and pinkifying. Also things like incorrect languages and dubtitles are simply unacceptable. That's not being picky or having ridiculously high standards. Those are basic requirements for any DVD.

[Shingster]

That's true. Like needless cropping and pinkifying. Also things like incorrect languages and dubtitles are simply unacceptable. That's not being picky or having ridiculously high standards. Those are basic requirements for any DVD.

Naturally there are some releases that have major problems, but to see earlier in this thread how Ivan and Tom talk about HKL, like every release of theirs was unacceptably low in quality, it's taking the negativity way too far and on other boards many HK film fans do this all the time.

It's not a case of the more casual fans saying that the hardcore fans shouldn't bemoan heavily flawed releases, it's that the hardcore fanbase make blanket statements and absolutes, and don't stop to think about the good that a distributor like HKL have done for Asian cinema.

[Killer Meteor]

Rubbish, I'll be the first to admit the good that HKL did. The reason I go on about the major flaws is a) they didn't stop when they should have b) they cost us the only chances of a decent DVD of certain films, in particular Legend Of A Fighter and c) the same mistakes are going on at Dragon Dynasty

[bradavon]

Well said again Shingster.

What major mistakes are DD making HKL also made?

[Killer Meteor]

The wrong flipping language on films (My Young Auntie), pinkifying (Police Story) and using dubtitles (Hard Boiled)

[bradavon]

Thanks.

[Shingster]

Rubbish, I'll be the first to admit the good that HKL did.

And yet here we are, posting in a thread that signals the end of the label - not a thread about a problematic release - and all you've done so far is bitch, whine, and attack HKL as a label. At the end of it all, despite their flaws HKL did do a good job as an asian film label, but you would never think that to read any one of your posts in this thread.

[Killer Meteor]

Is it a crime to criticise HKL's flaws? I belive that not only could these flaws have been avoided but HKL could have set up minimal quality control so that the last year's releases were not all bloody downmixes and the wrong language.

They f*cked up the Jackie Chan/LO Wei films, some of the most treasured films in my time as a HK film fan (even though they are disliked by many!), so yes, I am bitching. The label's gone so it's not like I shouldn't criticise them in order to keep the label's titles selling

[tom2681]

If everybody was as easygoing as Brad and Shingster are, HKL would have kept releasing Hong-Kong titles cropped to 1:78, with mandarin soundtracks and dubtitles.

The only way to obtain improvements is to yell at the people in charge until they do something about it. It has been tested and it works.

Remember when Fox started releasing their waves of asian titles with progressive transfers and proper subtitles ?
That's because we were bitching about it.

Same thing with HKL and their cropped and dubtitled mandarin transfers.
Maybe if we had bitched enough they would have stopped the pinkifying. Who knows ?

[Shingster]

Like a broken record.

C'mon people, let's all shout together:

GEEK POWER!

[HungFist]

I really would like to know how exactly companies can improve their products if no one ever tells them what is wrong with them.

[Killer Meteor]

Like a broken record.

C'mon people, let's all shout together:

GEEK POWER!

We're not more a broken record than apologists like you

I agree with you the difficulties of trying to release HK films AND I agree with you that the good HKL did for several titles - Swordsman, Moon Warriors, The Master, Naked Killer - should be noted

[Markgway]

I don't see how wanting quality releases makes us geeks. The only reason people complain so often is because companies get it wrong so often. I'd much rather praise everything that HKL and DD did/do and save having to be concerned about their flaws. I just call it as I see it.

[bradavon]

If everybody was as easygoing as Brad and Shingster are, HKL would have kept releasing Hong-Kong titles cropped to 1:78, with mandarin soundtracks and dubtitles.

HKL knew as soon as they'd released those 3 titles it was a mistake to crop them.

All I'm saying is at least praise them for the good work they've also done. What about the companies that came before or have since, do you honestly prefer them? (i.e - the UK ones).

I really would like to know how exactly companies can improve their products if no one ever tells them what is wrong with them.

My point was and I think Shingster's was the same was once you've told them "then shut the fuck up"

Why? Because they clearly only listen so much.

I'd much rather praise everything that HKL and DD did/do and save having to be concerned about their flaws.

Except you don't. No one does.

If you guys really were that bothered you'd have written a letter (an e-mail doesn't count) to HKL politely explaining why there DVDs are wrong but nope instead you'll bitch to the converted on a forum such as this.

[Shingster]

I really would like to know how exactly companies can improve their products if no one ever tells them what is wrong with them.

I completely agree, and as a DVD reviewer I'm more than aware of the concept constructive criticism, most HK film fans take it too far, it's all about the moan moan moan in every single thread about HKL or any other company that dared to get a few releases wrong.

Case in point: This thread. Ivan and Tom are taking this stance of "we're only saying these things so the company can improve" then why the fuck are you trolling a thread about the end of the HKL label? You people think anyone at HKL is actually reading this thread and thinking "yes! we have failed our fans, we must do better with our next release!....... Er, wait minute, D'oh! I forgot we're no linger in business anymore".

You want to bleat on about how the r2uk release of Prodigal son is a little stretched and cropped? Don't do it in this thread and insult our intelligence by claiming you're only doing it for our benefit. You're doing it just because you can let go of your negativity.

I'm not a HKL apologist, I just know that criticism is only constructive when you use it at the right ties in the right context, not if you just bleat on and on and on in every fucking thread you can until the more pragmatic members of the boards are just sick and tired of it.

I don't see how wanting quality releases makes us geeks.

We are all what is populary percieved as "asian film geeks" I didn't intend to mean just the moaners. Being a regular poster on an asian film board is probably the minimum requirement

[Killer Meteor]

If everybody was as easygoing as Brad and Shingster are, HKL would have kept releasing Hong-Kong titles cropped to 1:78, with mandarin soundtracks and dubtitles.

HKL knew as soon as they'd released those 3 titles it was a mistake to crop them.

All I'm saying is at least praise them for the good work they've also done. What about the companies that came before or have since, do you honestly prefer them? (i.e - the UK ones).

I really would like to know how exactly companies can improve their products if no one ever tells them what is wrong with them.

My point was and I think Shingster's was the same was once you've told them "then shut the fuck up"

Why? Because they clearly only listen so much.

I'd much rather praise everything that HKL and DD did/do and save having to be concerned about their flaws.

Except you don't. No one does.

If you guys really were that bothered you'd have written a letter (an e-mail doesn't count) to HKL politely explaining why there DVDs are wrong but nope instead you'll bitch to the converted on a forum such as this.

As a matter of fact, I DID write a letter. One in 2002, the other 2 in 2004

Now, YOU shut the f*ck up!

[HungFist]

I really would like to know how exactly companies can improve their products if no one ever tells them what is wrong with them.

I completely agree, and as a DVD reviewer I'm more than aware of the concept constructive criticism, most HK film fans take it too far, it's all about the moan moan moan in every single thread about HKL or any other company that dared to get a few releases wrong.

And what was your (DVD Times) name? Because I'm still going like is that Shing, yes, no, what the fuck was his name?

[Killer Meteor]

Wait a minute. Shingster = Dave Foster

Call it deductive reasoning, and I'm not Holmes (or Watson for that matter)

[bradavon]

And Dave Foster = Equals the Dude who pretty much uploads all the DVD "News"

As a matter of fact, I DID write a letter. One in 2002, the other 2 in 2004

Good. In your case I stand corrected then

But seriously few do, don't they.

Did you get any kind of response?

[thelostdragon]

Guys, thanks! You reminded me of "Legend of a Fighter". I'm gonna watch it tonight and enjoy it again, not thinking of any cropping, but just enjoying this beautiful film.

[Killer Meteor]

And Dave Foster = Equals the Dude who pretty much uploads all the DVD "News"

As a matter of fact, I DID write a letter. One in 2002, the other 2 in 2004

Good. In your case I stand corrected then

But seriously few do, don't they.

Did you get any kind of response?

Dave Foster is also the man who called me an obsessive fanboy when I made a case for the HKL Platinum Edition of The Big Boss including the original Mandarin version PRIOR to the DVD being released. I respect the man for his good reviews and for his work on DVD Times, which is a fine site. But whenever it comes to HKL, he was suddenly very forgiving in the reviews of the major flaws and rude in the comments sections, especially with the aforementioned Big Boss DVD - which you yourself Brad did nothing to help

HKL never replied to anything. In contrast, every letter or e-mail I sent to Soulblade, Blue Underground, Siren, Madman, and even Bey Logan himself was replied with courtesy and detail