Holy Sh*t Play have killed off HKL's website! ;-)

Killer Meteor · Post by **Killer Meteor** » 27 Jan 2008, 03:11

Yeah but you never do seem to give a damn, do you?

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 27 Jan 2008, 03:16

I'd give a damn if I had to still buy those atrocious HK DVDs like the Tai Chi Master and Fong Sai Yuk discs if that's what you mean. I guess I'm just not all that fussy, by forum standards anyway.

Killer Meteor · Post by **Killer Meteor** » 27 Jan 2008, 03:58

Yeah but everytime anyone raises a reasonable objection to a quality control issue on a DVD, you go all Joe Public on us, saying "I don't care" or "this isn't important". Don't bother commentating if you;re just gonna slag us off. No wonder distributors don't give a damn

gasteropod · Post by **gasteropod** » 27 Jan 2008, 08:18

Yeah I don't think it's right to be all easygoing on distributors, they should give us the best quality possible for our hard-earned money.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 27 Jan 2008, 11:18

Despite the flaws on the HKLs sometimes they're still (sadly) the best option.

Police Story - IVL has OOS sound, DD has a poorer image AND OOS sound.

The Prodigal Son - JS has remixed sound.

A Chinese Ghost Story - IVL has remixed sound.

Full Contact - Alternate soundtrack, not sure if that counts as "screwed-up". I thought it worked fine myself, but I understand they should have the theatrical audio also.

Iron Monkey - HKL has superior image (was the 5.1 poor on this?)

Millionnaire's Express - DD has the same pinkified image, IIRC?

Dragons Forever - JS has remixed sound

Wheels on Meals - JS has remixed sound

Heart of Dragon - JS has remixed sound

Miracles - The HKL audio is supposeldy muffled, but the image great.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 27 Jan 2008, 11:31

Doesnt the HKL of Chinese Ghost Story have remixed sound as well? I'm sure the sound is different from what I remember on the MIHK VHS, in some places there is extra music/speech etc.

HungFist · Post by **HungFist** » 27 Jan 2008, 11:39

As for Miracles I've also heard a lot of complaints about the audio, but I never understood why. It sounds clean to me. It's not like My Lucky Stars or Twinke Twinkle Lucky Stars which do sound very muted.

grim_tales wrote:Doesnt the HKL of Chinese Ghost Story have remixed sound as well? I'm sure the sound is different from what I remember on the MIHK VHS, in some places there is extra music/speech etc.

yes, it's some sort of Media Asia remix, I think. But it's just a few "small" changes here and there, compared to IVL's track which has more or less everything redone. I think. Correct me if I'm wrong.

tom2681 · Post by **tom2681** » 27 Jan 2008, 12:21

@Brad:
Just because an HKL disc is "not as bad" as the other available editions doesn't mean that it's good (or even acceptable).

OUATIC 3 is horizontally stretched. Big time.
https://www.bulletsnbabesdvd.com/forums/ ... php?t=1910
Some people can't notice that sort of thing but it drives me nuts.
Jet's face just doesn't look right.

OUATIC 2 has weak bass and the volume is too low (IIRC).
Same problem for Iron Monkey.

Yes I'm blaming HKL for the print damage.
All they had to do was ask for another print (which is what HK Vidéo usually do) or try to fix it.

Yes I'm picky. But I'm especially pissed off when I see flaws that could easily be avoided with a little bit of quality control.

gasteropod · Post by **gasteropod** » 27 Jan 2008, 12:28

Markgway wrote:Miracles - The HKL audio is supposeldy muffled, but the image great.

The IVL appears to be missing certain colour filters, so scenes on the HKL which have a blue tint to them, don't on the IVL. HKL wins.

Killer Meteor · Post by **Killer Meteor** » 27 Jan 2008, 13:40

I though HKL Miracles sounded fine. the Joy Sales had original mono but changed title card so I didn't bother upgrading

Yeah Iron Monkey is dead quiet. You can barely hear the dialogue in places

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 27 Jan 2008, 15:25

Ivan Drago wrote:Yeah Iron Monkey is dead quiet. You can barely hear the dialogue in places

Really? Both my CE and 2 Disc SE sounded ace to me. Not the slightest bit problematic. Iron Monkey CE and SE are two of the best HKL releases ever. Top film too.

Ivan Drago wrote:Yeah but everytime anyone raises a reasonable objection to a quality control issue on a DVD, you go all Joe Public on us, saying "I don't care" or "this isn't important". Don't bother commentating if you;re just gonna slag us off. No wonder distributors don't give a damn

As opposed to slagging off HKL for the past 5 years, yep because that's got you somewhere

gasteropod wrote:Yeah I don't think it's right to be all easygoing on distributors, they should give us the best quality possible for our hard-earned money.

I completely agreed but once everyone has said their bit it's futile to carry on, especially years later.

tom2681 wrote:@Brad:
Just because an HKL disc is "not as bad" as the other available editions doesn't mean that it's good (or even acceptable).

Agreed but does bitching about it suddenly fix or it usually get a better DVD released? No.

tom2681 wrote:Yes I'm blaming HKL for the print damage.
All they had to do was ask for another print (which is what HK Vidéo usually do) or try to fix it.

Wouldn't that result in some kind of filtering which would bring in all manner of new problems?

tom2681 wrote:OUATIC 2 has weak bass and the volume is too low (IIRC).
Same problem for Iron Monkey.

I thought that's what you guys wanted (in the bass)? A Mono soundtrack will have virtually no bass so I'd think a 5.1 remix with low bass would please you, no?

I don't honestly think HKL and their like can win. Whatever they do someone will bitch, why? Because the expectations are so unrealistically high.

chenlung · Post by **chenlung** » 27 Jan 2008, 15:43

HKL's 'Miracles' was probably the one rare occasion where the FS master looked inferior visually. Some very classy cinematography for a HK production, even though I don't think a great deal for the movie.

HKL was very nice indeed, but the sound is a bit unevenly mixed (dialogue is lost amongst everything else).

Killer Meteor · Post by **Killer Meteor** » 27 Jan 2008, 15:49

bradavon wrote:
Ivan Drago wrote:Yeah Iron Monkey is dead quiet. You can barely hear the dialogue in places
Really? Both my CE and 2 Disc SE sounded ace to me. Not the slightest bit problematic. Iron Monkey CE and SE are two of the best HKL releases ever. Top film too.

tom2681 wrote:t;]OUATIC 2 has weak bass and the volume is too low (IIRC).
Same problem for Iron Monkey.
I thought that's what you guys wanted (in the bass)? A Mono soundtrack will have virtually no bass so I'd think a 5.1 remix with low bass would please you, no?

I don't honestly think HKL and their like can win. Whatever they do someone will bitch, why? Because the expectations are so unrealistically high.

Our expectations are no higher than for any DVD releases, tons of DVD producers manage to get it right so I see no reason why HKL can't be held up to the same scutiny

And any audio has bass and treble. 5.1 increases the channels, but a well done mono track should have an even balance of bass and treble - and I'm a sound mixer so unlike you I know what I'm talking about!

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 27 Jan 2008, 16:17

Ivan Drago wrote:Our expectations are no higher than for any DVD releases, tons of DVD producers manage to get it right so I see no reason why HKL can't be held up to the same scutiny

It depends which studios you mean. It's unfair to compare HKL to the likes of Warner, who work with material in much better shape and have much more money at their disposal.

Which studios are you comparing HKL against?

Ivan Drago wrote:And any audio has bass and treble. 5.1 increases the channels, but a well done mono track should have an even balance of bass and treble - and I'm a sound mixer so unlike you I know what I'm talking about!

I know thanks

I also know Mono doesn't have a great deal of Bass or Treble to start with.

Killer Meteor · Post by **Killer Meteor** » 27 Jan 2008, 17:12

bradavon wrote:
Ivan Drago wrote:Our expectations are no higher than for any DVD releases, tons of DVD producers manage to get it right so I see no reason why HKL can't be held up to the same scutiny
It depends which studios you mean. It's unfair to compare HKL to the likes of Warner, who work with material in much better shape and have much more money at their disposal.

Which studios are you comparing HKL against?

[.

Any that don't take the trouble to crop or distort the image, knowingly use the wrong language or sound format. I was not comparing HKL to Warners but now I will. Warners doesn't take a 2.00:1 image that's cropped from 2.35:1, squish it down to 2.27:1 and then say on the box that it's 2.35:1. Warners doesn't release French films in Spanish.

HKL have NO excuse for many of their screwups, other than gross stupidity. You don't need a million to make a decent DVD. Allowing for sources and legal rights, all you need is common sense and honesty

Honestly, get your head out of the sand and appreciate a few simple facts

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 27 Jan 2008, 17:23

Ivan Drago wrote:Warners doesn't release French films in Spanish.

Which DVD are you talking about?

Ivan Drago wrote:Honestly, get your head out of the sand and appreciate a few simple facts

Like I said I'm just not as picky as you guys. You should learn to be less picky, you'll enjoy watching DVDs a lot more.

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 27 Jan 2008, 17:26

bradavon wrote:
Ivan Drago wrote:Warners doesn't release French films in Spanish.
Which DVD are you talking about?

I think he means HKL releasing films in Cantonese while they should have been in Mandarin.

You should learn to be less picky, you'll enjoy watching DVDs a lot more.

Couldn't agree more. In the end it's the story of a film I care about the most. If it is a serious mess like HKL's "Police Story 2", then I'm unhappy. But other than that?

Killer Meteor · Post by **Killer Meteor** » 27 Jan 2008, 17:34

Well it comes down to money. Why waste money on a poor DVD when you may as well rent or borrow it? Watching a flawed DVD doesn't make me not enjoy a film. It DOES make we wish I'd saved that money for a better DVD of another film

Shingster · Post by **Shingster** » 27 Jan 2008, 18:55

tom2681 wrote:Yes I'm picky. But I'm especially pissed off when I see flaws that could easily be avoided with a little bit of quality control.

You're not picky, you're naively idealist to the point of insanity. I'd love to see top-quality releases of all the HK films I love, but we all know that simply isn't possible. Can companies like HKL & IVL easily improve? Sure, can that reach the standards that obviously yourself, Ivan Drago and scores of members on the other Asian DVD boards expect? No, it's simply not possible to completely satisfy the geeks and make any kind of money.

This is what peeves me off about asian film fans, they're the most negative bunch of fans on the internet imo. You can usually split them into 3 categories:

HK Film Fans: Can't handle flaws in transfers, think every HK film print was put into stasis the moment they were struck. They also can't accept that the people who predominantly make and watch these films - I.E The Chinese - just don't give a fuck. I don't think there have been many western DVD release of HK films that have been a success because of Asian Film Forum posters buying it, it's the casual fans who make or break releases, and again they don't give a fuck.

JPN Film Fans: Biggest film snobs in existence.

KRN Film Fans: Deluded, think every concept or theme in Korean films are completely original and not lifted from US comedies or Japanese dramas. (Admittedly the sheer awfulness of Korea's output over the last 3yrs or so has changed this viewpoint)

Shingster · Post by **Shingster** » 27 Jan 2008, 19:06

Ivan Drago wrote:Our expectations are no higher than for any DVD releases, tons of DVD producers manage to get it right so I see no reason why HKL can't be held up to the same scutiny

Complete bullshit when it comes to HK cinema on DVD Ivan and you know it, there's only a few producers who have the right idea when it comes to bringing older HK films to DVD.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 27 Jan 2008, 19:09

Well put Shingster. Particularly about the Chinese not giving a fuck, most of them buy bootlegs.

Ivan Drago wrote:It DOES make we wish I'd saved that money for a better DVD of another film

And what if you already own the best version, what then?

Shingster · Post by **Shingster** » 27 Jan 2008, 19:12

Ivan Drago wrote:HKL have NO excuse for many of their screwups, other than gross stupidity. You don't need a million to make a decent DVD. Allowing for sources and legal rights, all you need is common sense and honesty

Honestly, get your head out of the sand and appreciate a few simple facts

And of course you are speaking from experience as someone who has operated an Asian film DVD label in a Western company, right? I mean you know everything about the costs of running such a label compared to the input from sales, then dealing with HK film distributors and sourcing the prints, remastering them, authoring DVDs, marketing them, etc etc.

Killer Meteor · Post by **Killer Meteor** » 27 Jan 2008, 19:13

Shingster wrote:
Ivan Drago wrote:Our expectations are no higher than for any DVD releases, tons of DVD producers manage to get it right so I see no reason why HKL can't be held up to the same scutiny
Complete bullshit when it comes to HK cinema on DVD Ivan and you know it, there's only a few producers who have the right idea when it comes to bringing older HK films to DVD.

But why don't they have the right idea? Brian White demonstrated early on that he was willing to crop the films to sell them to teenagers. I know full well that the HK producers don't give a damn, either about preserving the films or in quality control of the DVDs, but why should UK and US based producers, who do know how to handle the films within their limts and yet screw them up, do so?

Shingster · Post by **Shingster** » 27 Jan 2008, 19:33

Ivan Drago wrote:But why don't they have the right idea? Brian White demonstrated early on that he was willing to crop the films to sell them to teenagers. I know full well that the HK producers don't give a damn, either about preserving the films or in quality control of the DVDs, but why should UK and US based producers, who do know how to handle the films within their limts and yet screw them up, do so?

Because there's about a thousand intricate problems that faces a company when they decide to take on the extremely uphill task of bringing old and new HK films onto DVD. For a startm you're working in a very niché segment of the market, even at the height of its popularity here in the U.K, Asian cinema has always been a tough sell. A guy like Brian White has to balance his idealist view of bringing HK classics to mainstream UK audiences with the highest quality with the simple fact that to remaster these films costs a shitload of money - there's no two ways about that. Add to that the fact that the HK distributors don't give a fuck about what masters they send out, and you've got a serious problem.

HKL' early DVDs have print damage and shite audio because that's what they were supplied with. Sure they could've gone back to Megastar and demanded better masters, but that costs time and money on both sides - and certainly I doubt Megastar would be motivated to do so - certainly HKL wouldn't be when tight deadlines come into play.

And also, it's more a matter of whether to decide to spend a shitload of money on one classic film, or spread that budget across a whole slew of releases. When you're faced with modest sales and tight profit margins on even the most popular, classic "oldie" then this just isn't a difficult choice to make at all. The whole issue of cropping is tied into this, it's simple pragmatic sense that a 16:9 film will appeal to mainstream buyers more than a 2.35:1. When they first came out HKL obviously decided to crop their films because of this, but they did later change their policy. Ignoring the early cropped titles and Legend of a Fighter (which was one of the earliest titles that they worked on), the cropping in later films like Police Story and Prodigal Son were probably a result of bad telecining - and certainly are no where near the level of cropping you get when shifting from 2.35:1 - 1.85:1. Of course, the way you lot go on about it, you'd think it was.

The simple reality is that only us, the hardcore fanbase, notice and are even remotely bothered by the lesser cropping/stretching/5.1 remastering issues that plague HKL/IVL releases. How big an affect do you think us not buying these titles really makes on the sales of these DVDs? I'm willing to put good money on the fact that all our protestations over the poor quality of HKL' releases of PS1 & PS2 had absolutely no effect on their sales.

So if you really think about it, it's a miracle that any HK film distributor ever listen and even remotely attempt to pander to the teeny-tiny-miniscule hardcore fanbase and ramp up their DVD production budgets with costly & time consuming remastering & sourcing, when they know it's going to have very little effect on their sales.

It's all about motivation and simple numbers. A guy like Brian White will buy the rights to a whole slew of films and think "well I could do a bang up job on Eastern Condors, or release an extra X amount of film instead".

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 27 Jan 2008, 19:57

Legend of a Fighter should have been in Cantonese right? Given the rareness of the film and the fact its a title not many have heard of, shouldnt we be grateful stuff like LoAF and Ninja in the Dragons Den is released at all? Back in the day, I was amazed at restoration job HKL did on the Bruce Lee CE titles - the colours on the CE were striking though (eg Bruce's hair being brown).
I wonder why the HK trailer for FIST is still only in Cantonese, despite HKL releasing FIST with the original Mandarin audio?