Bullets 'n' Babes

This appalling event happened literally down the road from me...the man in question has been detained on suspicion of killing his 70 year old mother...however in 2004 he was detained under the mental health act after a rampage which resulted in killing his father and fracturing his mother's skull....he was let out free after just 3 years and it looks like he's finished the job he started surely someone should be held accountable for something like this...who the fuck signed his release papers and decided he wasn't a danger

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpoo ... -26152958/

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpoo ... -26160543/

It gets even worse......

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... lling.html

I'm not surprised. This country has gone to shit. The authorities don't fucking care. As long as they reach their quotas and whatnot they don't give a fuck who suffers. Abused children failed by social services, violent criminals at large, and mental patients left to their own devices... just another brick in the wall, mate.

Care In The Community, well that is one of the most fucked up things the government ever created.

It forced us out of our last house as the government bought a house on our estate, and turned it into a looney bin! but without bars on the windows, and only some 18 years old tiny girls to look after 6 massive teenage mentally disturbed loonballs! you can only imagine how much shit went down, well acctually no one could imagine it was off the scale.
When you wake up on a morning, come down stairs and open the blinds to find a 6 foot 5 massive ginger haired down syndrome patient has got loose and is in the front of your garden trying to pull up a small tree, you know you have to move house. Sadly is is a legal requirment to mention Care in the Community is going on near you when you sell your home! so you can imagine no one wants to move into a house near a crazy house.

I wish the authorities pain, or just to have a loonhouse open up next door to them.

Now look what you've done Salty, you've started the "Mark and Romero the world's gone to shit" rant again . Some truth mixed in with lots of exaggeration.

3 years is ridiculously short but as worrying is how he was allowed to see his mother again, once he was let out.

Lots of truth mixed in with minimal exaggeration. Why? Because we don't need to exaggerate. None of this shit is made up. It's there in black and white. You can find countless examples - Sam mentions but one. Liberals just like to bury their heads in the sand because it doesn't suit their rosy cosy world view in which middle-class white males are to blame for everything. But then if you really think Britain is a better, safer place overall than it was 10-20 years ago then there's nothing much I can say to change that.

bradavon wrote:"Mark and Romero the world's gone to shit" rant again . Some truth mixed in with lots of exaggeration.

You are blind, you walk around with your eyes closed, you see nothing which is proven by your comments countless times on this very forum.

Some of us acctually interact with the people around us and find out what happens around us in our area, you obviously do not at all. Or maybe no one cares to talk to you or let you know a thing about what goes on, you just stay in the bubble and think everyone is telling lies

@ Mark:

You said, the country's gone to shit. No it hasn't. As usual, you both chose to ignore all the good that goes on too. You said, the authorities don't fucking care. Yes they do, they do a very hard job and obviously don't always get it right but right they do sometimes and again you choose to ignore it.

Markgway wrote:Lots of truth mixed in with minimal exaggeration.

So you admit you're exaggerating?

Markgway wrote:Liberals just like to bury their heads in the sand because it doesn't suit their rosy cosy world view in which middle-class white males are to blame for everything.

I consider myself liberal and don't consider "middle-class white males are to blame for everything". I don't even like the class terminology, as it implies the upper class are somehow better than the lower class. There are poor, richer and rich. You're the on who keeps bringing class into so many discussions.

Markgway wrote:But then if you really think Britain is a better, safer place overall than it was 10-20 years ago then there's nothing much I can say to change that.

To take some of your statements:

* This country has gone to shit - You reckon people didn't think this in 1990s and 1980s too? Get real!
* The authorities don't fucking care -You reckon people didn't think this in 1990s and 1980s too?
* Abused children failed by social services, violent criminals at large, and mental patients left to their own devices -You reckon people didn't think this in 1990s and 1980s too?

It's no better or worse than it's ever been. Obviously things aren't perfect and of course what you say has some truth but you so often decide to paint such a dour picture and choose to ignore all the good that is equally done.

You honestly reckon there weren't abused children (ignored by social services) or violent criminals at large in the 1980s and 1990s?

As to whether I think Britain is a better and safer place to what it was 10-20 years ago. Firstly I don't spend too much time thinking about it either way, I prefer to live in the present and get on with things but as you asked. I don't think it's better or worse and largely the same to it was in the 1990s. I cannot comment on the 1980s as I'm too young (as are you). Statistically crime is down to what it was a decade ago, so technically yes The UK must be safer.

romerojpg wrote:You are blind

Since my eye operation, my eyes are working much better thanks.

romerojpg wrote:Some of us acctually interact with the people around us and find out what happens around us in our area, you obviously do not at all. Or maybe no one cares to talk to you or let you know a thing about what goes on, you just stay in the bubble and think everyone is telling lies

If things are really as bad as you say, nothing good is left in this country, emigrate but of course you're exaggerating and there is good too. You just choose to ignore it.

Who said anything about lies? You're the absolution here. I said there was truth in what you said, I equally said you've blown it out of proportion and aren't even willing to acknowledge the good that is done too.

Do either of you actually do anything to make things better? No, you just whing and moan on Internet forums. Go you! Neither do I but I don't think The UK is in that bad a state (no I didn't say it was perfect either, which seems to be the constant retort against me in such discussions), most people don't realise how lucky they are. Go live in your beloved Asia and see how bad things really can be.

Do you actually interact with people in your area? Are you actually involved in community programmes? I some how doubt it Romero but show me "proof" and no that doesn't mean more unsubstantiated waffle but actual proof.

But of course Romero you'd prefer to live in your own bubble, never leave The UK, never see the outside world and feel safe thinking everyone has it in for you. You often bring up that The UK is shit but have nothing to compare it against.

I agree with Brad on some counts here - sadly evil, cruel shit happens all the time But it happened equally when the Tories were in power - the James Bulger murder and Dunblane shooting etc, happened under a Tory Government, IMO its hard to believe the whole landscape of the country has changed in just over 10 years.

bradavon wrote:As usual, you both chose to ignore all the good that goes on too.

For example? Name half a dozen things in society that are better now than they were 15 years ago.

You said, the authorities don't fucking care. Yes they do

They have a funny way of showing it. All you hear about is quotas and targets. The real people in need come second. A man with one leg is told off for not seeking employment. Same day a junkie refuses to work and given maximum benefits. True stories both. And they're not one-offs. But you won't ever read about it in the left-wing press.

they do a very hard job and obviously don't always get it right but right they do sometimes and again you choose to ignore it.

Examples? I never said social work was easy but some of these cases are staggering. Read the reports. Don't take my word for it. It's not like we're talking about one rogue case every few years. On a regular basis people are let down badly by the system.

Markgway wrote:Lots of truth mixed in with minimal exaggeration.

Bradavon wrote:So you admit you're exaggerating?

That's a pathetic shot even for you.

I consider myself liberal and don't consider "middle-class white males are to blame for everything". I don't even like the class terminology, as it implies the upper class are somehow better than the lower class.

You've completely missed the point as usual.

You're the on who keeps bringing class into so many discussions.

Because in this society its relevant. Class affects the culture. Working class people get fucked all the time by the middle class and the middle class gets fucked by the liberals.

You reckon people didn't think this in 1990s and 1980s too? Get real! It's no better or worse than it's ever been. Obviously things aren't perfect and of course what you say has some truth but you so often decide to paint such a dour picture and choose to ignore all the good that is equally done.

I'd love to hear about all these good things... maybe it'll brighten my day? Crime is worse, anti-social behaviour is worse, prisons are overcrowded, manners have disappeared, education is rapidly declining (something which no amount of exam fixing can cover), the ecconomy is piss-poor, the UK is on the verge of becoming a police state for christ's sake... Look for the info. It's out there. The 90s were worse than the 80s... the 80s worse than the 70s... so yeah that's why people get worked up.

You honestly reckon there weren't abused children (ignored by social services) or violent criminals at large in the 1980s and 1990s?

Of course there were.

Firstly I don't spend too much time thinking about it either way

And that's part of your problem. You don't think. You lap up what you're told.

I prefer to live in the present and get on with things

Or bury your head in the sand... like if I don't experience it first hand it's doesn't exist therefore everything is peachy. For most of those suffering out there this is their present and they'd dearly love to get on but can't. Guess they're not as fortunate as you.

I cannot comment on the 1980s as I'm too young (as are you).

As an adult that's true. But Sam would remember. When I was a kid I used to walk the streets without fear. The only thin my parents worried about was me crossing busy roads. But now...? Adults can't walk the streets safely. An 80 year olf woman had the shit kicked out of her a few streets away from where I live at Xmas. They did it for a few quid. That kinda shit was very rare when I was young.

Statistically crime is down to what it was a decade ago, so technically yes The UK must be safer.

Only a fool would believe that kind of bollocks. Tell you what - you really think the UK is safer come to my neighbourhood (or any urban grime) and see if you last an hour with that attitude.

bradavon wrote:Do either of you actually do anything to make things better? No, you just whing and moan on Internet forums. Go you!

Do you actually interact with people in your area? Are you actually involved in community programmes? I some how doubt it Romero but show me "proof" and no that doesn't mean more unsubstantiated waffle but actual proof.

But of course Romero you'd prefer to live in your own bubble, never leave The UK, never see the outside world and feel safe thinking everyone has it in for you. You often bring up that The UK is shit but have nothing to compare it against.

Wow You are so clueless on every single count there.

I dont just moan on the net like you that is for damn sure. "Proof" yeah I will get the Police round to yours to back me up as proof what do you expect from me, a written notice from the cops to show what I do to idiots who ruin our area Classic. Next time I call 999 I will send you a recording of the report. Some of us are not as spineless as you come off as being and acctually go outside, unlike you.

and I have been out of the UK more time than you, FACT. Some of us do not care to share information like an Internet Slag who pimps everything they do in life, you do and it is sad. You have bragged how many times you have been out of the UK in your life so far, over and over again, I have beaten you by a vast amount. So shut up old grand master who travels alone looking for a life elsewhere and thinks he knows everything about every country and culture, except you dont YOU are a fucking tourist How deep Grand Master.

I will get the Police and my Travel company to email you proof of my movements and actions along with every film I watch, what equipment I own, who my friends are and where I go on a weekend and who I interact with, and when I shit as we all know you love the bum stuff.

You win, everyone else is wrong

Stop beating about the bush and tell us your true feelings Romero Internet Slag....classic

Haha, classic Romero post.

Markgway wrote:For example? Name half a dozen things in society that are better now than they were 15 years ago.

Off the top of my head so not 6:

* Equality - Sexism rights, Gay Rights, Black rights etc... Not perfect and I think they've gone too far sometime but yes it's overall better than it was 15 years ago. A lot of which because people no longer care and don't see the big deal, except of course for the homophobic Christians, hanging on to a book written hundreds of years ago.
* Generally most people are better off.
* Crime is down and yes statistically it is. People think they're less safe because we have much more access to news from the media.

There is no more chance of a kid being kidnapped than their ever has been but parents still will no longer allow their kids to go out unsupervised, whereas once they would have.

Markgway wrote:But you won't ever read about it in the left-wing press.

I tend to read the BBC's website and watch Sky News/BBC News. What are they? Not that I really care, left, right, it's all bollocks frankly. Both sides have good and stupid things to say.

Markgway wrote:Examples? I never said social work was easy but some of these cases are staggering. Read the reports. Don't take my word for it.

I said they don't always get it right. Of course I cannot give examples where they get it right because that doesn't sell papers so isn't reported on. I'm sure it happens though.

Markgway wrote:Lots of truth mixed in with minimal exaggeration - That's a pathetic shot even for you.

You were the on admitting you're exaggerating.

Markgway wrote:Working class people get fucked all the time by the middle class and the middle class gets fucked by the liberals.

To use your words, I'm middle class and liberal. Am I therefore fucking myself?

Markgway wrote:manners have disappeared, education is rapidly declining

I agree with you on these two. Did you hear on the news, in one school teachers are interviewed by adults but wait for it, the pupils too. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. There's no wonder there's no discipline, kids are given far too much say in matters nowadays and parents are partly to blame. Generally good parents, listen to their kids opinion way too much.

I will counter that with more people are going to Uni though. I don't think education overall is declining, it's just not improving to the level it should. Does that make sense? People are generally more intelligent than they were 10-15 years ago.

Markgway wrote:the UK is on the verge of becoming a police state for christ's sake...

. Another joke please. This crackpot idea always cracks me up.

Markgway wrote:Of course there were.

Yet you still say it's worse?

Markgway wrote:And that's part of your problem. You don't think. You lap up what you're told.

You've completely missed the point. I know a lot of what goes on in the UK and abroad. I just don't choose to dwell on it.

Markgway wrote:Or bury your head in the sand... like if I don't experience it first hand it's doesn't exist therefore everything is peachy.

So because I don't choose to have a "the world is doomed" attitude I'm living with my head buried in the sand? Okay, right then. I've seen some of the world's poverty first hand remember. As I'm guessing you have, just more close to home.

Markgway wrote:Guess they're not as fortunate as you.

Or fortune as any of us. We all have a roof over our heads and can afford the Internet. Don't you still live with your parents? That's a luxury in itself.

Markgway wrote:An 80 year olf woman had the shit kicked out of her a few streets away from where I live at Xmas. They did it for a few quid. That kinda shit was very rare when I was young.

Bollocks it was. You forget we're much more informed nowadays and that's the crux of why I say it's no better or worse. This all was going on much the same, people just didn't know about it. We now have 24 hour news channels, newspapers, twitter, facebook, websites, radio etc... A lot of this simply didn't exist 10-15 years ago.

I feel perfectly safe walking the streets at night, probably not everywhere but that's the case everywhere. Everywhere has dodgy areas. There was a time, it was considered okay for a husband to beat his wife. She just lived with it. Today she's leave and it would get in the papers.

Markgway wrote:Only a fool would believe that kind of bollocks. Tell you what - you really think the UK is safer come to my neighbourhood (or any urban grime) and see if you last an hour with that attitude.

You think those neighbourhoods were better 10-15 years ago? Please.

romerojpg wrote:and I have been out of the UK more time than you, FACT.

You only said a few months back you've never left the UK. So you've suddenly left the UK more than I have in only a matter of months. Yeah okay. Where btw? At least say which imaginary worlds you've been too. Of course I visit as a tourist, there's nothing other way of visiting a country, unless you choose to live in every one. You're either a tourist or you live somewhere, there's no in between.

I don't know where to start with the rest of your drivel. There's nothing concrete there, just hyperbole. The statement I've quoted proves that, how can you possibly make such a statement?

bradavon wrote: * Equality - Sexism rights, Gay Rights, Black rights etc...

Sexism rights? Is that the right to be sexist then? You need to be more specific. Before Labour came into power women, gays, and ethnic minorities all had basic rights. What's new?

A lot of which because people no longer care and don't see the big deal, except of course for the homophobic Christians, hanging on to a book written hundreds of years ago.

As opposed to homophobic Muslims... but you wouldn't dare say that would you?

Generally most people are better off.

Is that before or after the numerous stealth taxes? The only people better off are the unemployed.

Crime is down and yes statistically it is. People think they're less safe because we have much more access to news from the media.

The statistics are obviously manipulated, just as almost all government figures are. According to Alan Johnson on Q.T unemployment was at 1.5m. Who's he trying to bullshit? The media just report what has occured. When they start making up stories I'll agree with you. I can promise you that my area is less safe now than it was 15-20 yrs ago. This used to be a reasonable area, now it's chav central.

There is no more chance of a kid being kidnapped than their ever has been but parents still will no longer allow their kids to go out unsupervised, whereas once they would have.

Factor in violence between children. It's not just adults kids have to fear. When I was growing up no kid in my school carried a knife. The worst you had to worry about was getting punched. Now the teachers are scared.

I tend to read the BBC's website and watch Sky News/BBC News. What are they? Not that I really care, left, right, it's all bollocks frankly. Both sides have good and stupid things to say.

The BBC is leftist, SKY a lot less so from what I've seen. At least that's something of a balance for you. There's no right-wing media on TV in the UK (not that I'd want drivel like Fox News). The Daily Mail is the most right-wing paper (followed by The Sun, which is condensed for morons). Worth checking out simply because they report stories that the rest purposely ignore. I don't subscribe to a partisan view, but I recognise the truth when I see it.

Of course I cannot give examples where they get it right because that doesn't sell papers so isn't reported on. I'm sure it happens though.

Because that's what you want to believe. I only wish that were true. Too many cases of social services fucking up can't be dismissed as a blip.

You were the on admitting you're exaggerating.

Please stop. It's embarrassing. Everyone but you knows what I meant.

Markgway wrote:To use your words, I'm middle class and liberal. Am I therefore fucking myself?

Probably.

I agree with you on these two. Did you hear on the news, in one school teachers are interviewed by adults but wait for it, the pupils too. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. There's no wonder there's no discipline, kids are given far too much say in matters nowadays and parents are partly to blame. Generally good parents, listen to their kids opinion way too much.

We agree on something.

I will counter that with more people are going to Uni though.

Is that a good thing though? Sounds great if you're into statistics. But really what are these kids learning? Does it really require millions of taxpayer pounds (and student debt) to take a course in The Simpsons? OK, so I picked a particularly frivilous course to illustrate, but it's not alone. Look at the list of degree courses on offer and ask yourself why anyone needs degrees in many of them? Of course you need to go to Uni to study medicine or the law... but really, there's far too much bullshit on offer. I know, I went to Uni, and it was a waste of fucking time (even though I passed). It didn't help me with employment and I learnt very little. Further education isn't for everyone. Let's concentrate on getting basic education right first.

IPeople are generally more intelligent than they were 10-15 years ago.

I don't see how you could back up a statement like that. They dumb down exams so kids can achieve higher pass rates. It's actually not possible for a society to be as intelligent as the government claims. If it were we'd all be in Mensa. Education standards have in real terms dropped abysmally. We have access to more information, but that does not make us more intelligent.

. Another joke please. This crackpot idea always cracks me up.

Seriously...? Spy cameras in wheelie bins, children asked to spy on teachers, neighbours asked to report anyone behaving unconventionally in case they're a terrorist, more CCTV than any country on the planet, ID cards... that's just off the top of my head.

You've completely missed the point. I know a lot of what goes on in the UK and abroad. I just don't choose to dwell on it.

Dwell on it. You can't ignore the truth because it's 'a bit depressing'.

So because I don't choose to have a "the world is doomed" attitude I'm living with my head buried in the sand? Okay, right then. I've seen some of the world's poverty first hand remember. As I'm guessing you have, just more close to home.

I'm not saying you can't be happy or enjoy life... that would be a waste. But you act as though bad shit in the UK doesn't exist. It does. Get fucking angry. Surely even Liberals get angry sometimes...?

Don't you still live with your parents? That's a luxury in itself.

I can't afford to live anywhere else!

(At least for now...)

Bollocks it was. You forget we're much more informed nowadays and that's the crux of why I say it's no better or worse. This all was going on much the same, people just didn't know about it. We now have 24 hour news channels, newspapers, twitter, facebook, websites, radio etc... A lot of this simply didn't exist 10-15 years ago.

In my neighbourhood you knew everything that happened. It was like something out of an old Italian gangster movie. Everybody knew everybody and looked after their own. If an old lady was beaten in broad daylight it was big news. When it comes to world news you're right about greater access. But I'm talking about the streets where you live.

I feel perfectly safe walking the streets at night, probably not everywhere but that's the case everywhere. Everywhere has dodgy areas.

And that doesn't bother you? No go areas? Gangs hanging around causing bother? Ghettos?

There was a time, it was considered okay for a husband to beat his wife. She just lived with it. Today she's leave and it would get in the papers.

When was that? Not in my lifetime.

You think those neighbourhoods were better 10-15 years ago? Please.

Yes, I live in one. But don't get me wrong... I'm not saying there weren't any problems with crime and shit. Just that things have gotten worse is all.

I don't know if things have gotten "worse", maybe I'm more aware of things now as I'm a bit older but there was crime and bad shit happening 10-15 years ago as well.
The BBC "say" they are impartial and want to be seen as such, I'm not sure they are.

I think it depends entirely on your personal circumstances and also those of your immediate area.

I do feel the drug and gang cultures are what keep us back.

That's a good point. I don't exactly live in a tough area I guess

Markgway wrote:Before Labour came into power women, gays, and ethnic minorities all had basic rights. What's new?

They really didn't, not adequately anyway. The Torries did little for gay rights for example, it was labour who brought them in. I was speaking to a friend about it recently.

Have you heard about what Chris Grayling (of the Torries) has said recently? On the one hand he voted for more gay rights, the right for gay people to marry, oddly the right for gay people not to be turned away in hotels/B&Bs because they're gay and now he's been secretly filmed saying B&B owners should have the right to turn away gay people.

That's homophobia and that's the Torries. If you have such a problem with a gay couple staying in your B&B, then frankly you're in the wrong job.

Markgway wrote:As opposed to homophobic Muslims... but you wouldn't dare say that would you?

Of course I would. Why would you think otherwise? I'm no more Muslim than you are. All religious text was written hundreds of year ago in an entirely different time and place. That's not to think I think religion is bad per-se just very outdated in some of it's views.

Markgway wrote:The Daily Mail is the most right-wing paper (followed by The Sun, which is condensed for morons).

Do I have to? There's so much drivel in The Daily Mail. I'd struggle to even call it a "news"paper.

Markgway wrote:Because that's what you want to believe. I only wish that were true. Too many cases of social services fucking up can't be dismissed as a blip.

If they literally only did wrong, the social services would literally fall apart. So sorry but even you have to see they do good too. It's just not reported on. We hear about a dozen/two dozen/whatever cases a year compared with the hundreds that don't get reported. That might sound like a lot but it probably isn't even that high.

Markgway wrote:Of course you need to go to Uni to study medicine or the law...

That basically proves my point. It works for as many I'd say as it fails. That's always been the way with Unis and yes I think it's a good thing more people go, education is never a bad thing.

Markgway wrote:I know, I went to Uni, and it was a waste of fucking time (even though I passed). It didn't help me with employment and I learnt very little.

To counter act that, my brother to went to Uni, also passed and now is starting a managerial trainee job in September. Earning about what I'm earning (he's 8 years younger than me) and it's his first full time job. Uni for him clearly wasn't a waste of time and he wouldn't have even got an interview without either experience or a Uni degree.

Markgway wrote:Further education isn't for everyone.

Of course. I just used it as an example.

Markgway wrote:Seriously...? Spy cameras in wheelie bins, children asked to spy on teachers, neighbours asked to report anyone behaving unconventionally in case they're a terrorist, more CCTV than any country on the planet, ID cards... that's just off the top of my head.

Those are the extremes, it's still not 1984.

Markgway wrote:Dwell on it. You can't ignore the truth because it's 'a bit depressing'.

I'd rather not. I'd rather enjoy my life and if something isn't right I'll vote with a pen and paper at the general elections.

Markgway wrote:But you act as though bad shit in the UK doesn't exist.

I don't. Our opinion on how bad it really is and how often it happens differs though. The thing is, if it is this bad, emigrate. Obviously that's not a two minute decision but you're young and have your health (I presume), you're capable of moving abroad.

Markgway wrote:I can't afford to live anywhere else!

Are you working full time? Then you can probably afford to live "somewhere" else (even if it's a 1 bedroom shared house). The government gives us so much help, as you point out, remember.

Markgway wrote:And that doesn't bother you? No go areas? Gangs hanging around causing bother? Ghettos?

Of course it does but what's the point typing long paragraphs about it on Internet forums?

Markgway wrote:When was that? Not in my lifetime.

Of course it does. It happens now in some Asian families.

A BnB is really inviting people into your home (some people make their homes BnBs), and once you run a business you surely cannot discriminate against a certain group like that.

bradavon wrote:You only said a few months back you've never left the UK.

I never said anything ever like that you backward fool - YOU said that I had not been out the UK, and have a few times now. Once again pretending you know more about everyone than they know themself.

bradavon wrote:They really didn't, not adequately anyway. The Torries did little for gay rights for example, it was labour who brought them in. I was speaking to a friend about it recently.

Well, if you mean gay adoption, then I don't particularly agree with that concept. Can gays be good parents? Of course. But it's what's in the child's best interest that counts, and same sex parents isn't that. When the register runs out of straight married couples then we'll see. But as with anything Labour does a possible good (whether I agree with it or not) is basterdized. A child taken away from its grandparents and forced into adoption with two unknown men. True story.

Have you heard about what Chris Grayling (of the Torries) has said recently? On the one hand he voted for more gay rights, the right for gay people to marry, oddly the right for gay people not to be turned away in hotels/B&Bs because they're gay and now he's been secretly filmed saying B&B owners should have the right to turn away gay people...If you have such a problem with a gay couple staying in your B&B, then frankly you're in the wrong job.

I don't agree with what he said. A B&B is a public business and if you run such a business you cannot discriminate on grounds of race, sex, sexuality, or religion. It may be run out of their home, but it's still a public business. Like you said: If you have such strong bigotted convictions then you're in the wrong business. Your home is your own, but a B&B must stick to the law. Personally I don't care who sleeps together - none of my business. This religious conviction shit is an excuse for bigotry. "Ah, it's OK to discriminate, because the Bible said so!" As for gay marriage - well, I think marriage is the wrong word as that's a religious ceremony isn't it? Civil partnerships are fine though.

That's homophobia and that's the Torries.

You can't sum up the whole party with one comment made by one MP.

Of course I would. Why would you think otherwise?

Just because you singled out Christianity when as a primarily Christian country we're more tolerant than any Muslim country. If you want to talk about gay rights are complete lack thereof start with them. But I accept your clarification and largely agree.

Do I have to? There's so much drivel in The Daily Mail. I'd struggle to even call it a "news"paper.

Drivel, really? Have you ever read it or are you just regurgitating student union politics? Please give me examples of the drivel.

If they literally only did wrong, the social services would literally fall apart. So sorry but even you have to see they do good too. It's just not reported on. We hear about a dozen/two dozen/whatever cases a year compared with the hundreds that don't get reported. That might sound like a lot but it probably isn't even that high.

Falling apart? Maybe not. But you have to admit there's a real problem. The Baby P case was a fiasco from start to finish (and there are too many others across the country to ignore). Don't deny the problems... fix them. You can't go back but you can save another child.

That basically proves my point. It works for as many I'd say as it fails. That's always been the way with Unis and yes I think it's a good thing more people go, education is never a bad thing.

You've obviously ignored MY point so we'll move on as I'm not stating it all again.

To counter act that, my brother to went to Uni, also passed and now is starting a managerial trainee job in September. Earning about what I'm earning (he's 8 years younger than me) and it's his first full time job. Uni for him clearly wasn't a waste of time and he wouldn't have even got an interview without either experience or a Uni degree.

Lucky him. But jobs are extremely scarce. He should considered himself fortunate. It really does depend on what course you do. My generalised course qualified me for bugger all - and that's what I'm against. Bullshit courses. Kids coming out with bits of paper that qualify them for next to nothing useful in the real world. Your brother is a success story - but there are so many failures.

Those are the extremes, it's still not 1984.

Not yet...

I'd rather not. I'd rather enjoy my life and if something isn't right I'll vote with a pen and paper at the general elections.

Ignorance is bliss as they say...

I don't. Our opinion on how bad it really is and how often it happens differs though. The thing is, if it is this bad, emigrate. Obviously that's not a two minute decision but you're young and have your health (I presume), you're capable of moving abroad.

I would move abroad, really. I have no undying love for the UK. Money is the problem and I don't have any special qualifications (I'm not a brain surgeon) that would grant me special access. But when I can save up enough - or get a career break - I'll probably do it. Only 30 so I still have time.

Are you working full time? Then you can probably afford to live "somewhere" else (even if it's a 1 bedroom shared house).

Part-time (for now). Else I wouldn't have so much time to waffle to you guys.

The government gives us so much help, as you point out, remember.

The government only helps certain types. If I was a lifetime sponger they'd be knocking down my door to grant me handouts.

Of course it does but what's the point typing long paragraphs about it on Internet forums?

By extention what's the point of having this discussion? What's the point of any debate on this forum?

Of course it does. It happens now in some Asian families.

That's not UK law. That's a failure to stop illegality.Wipe away all the PC bullshit and make it clear that any man (Asian or otherwise) who strikes an innocent women will go to jail. Sorted.

Markgway wrote:Well, if you mean gay adoption, then I don't particularly agree with that concept.

I didn't but as you bring it up. In an ideal world, I'd agree but we don't live in an ideal world. An ideal world, we'd have no need for adoption, no need for adoption.

While I agree a child "ideally" needs a male and female role model, what it need more is "good parenting". There are plenty of straight parents who frankly, should't be. At least with adoption (straight or gay) you have to jump through numerous hopes. You just need sperm, ovaries and two randy buggers for straight people to have kids.

Markgway wrote:A child taken away from its grandparents and forced into adoption with two unknown men. True story.

It's a true statement maybe but a true story, no. Care to turn it into a true story and give more than the newspaper headline?

Markgway wrote:As for gay marriage - well, I think marriage is the wrong word as that's a religious ceremony isn't it? Civil partnerships are fine though.

We all know the only reason it's not "technically" called a marriage because Christians would get so hot under the collar about it. Is marriage a religious thing? No I don't think it is any more, no more than Christmas and Easter are for the masses.

Markgway wrote:Just because you singled out Christianity when as a primarily Christian country we're more tolerant than any Muslim country.

I don't think we are. We're largely an Atheist or Agnostic society, surely? Otherwise I agree. It's political correctness gone mad. I don't think we want to follow Muslims countries but have gone too far the other way.

Markgway wrote:Drivel, really? Have you ever read it or are you just regurgitating student union politics? Please give me examples of the drivel.

I've never been to Uni, so therefore a student union. I wouldn't know what they talk about. A quick look at the Daily Mail website shows me:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/ar ... orbit.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/ar ... ng-me.html

Obviously Katie Price is bloody everywhere. It's just not paper for me. I tried The Guardian once too, I didn't much like it either. The Times is probably my favourite. Not that I'm a weekly reader.

Markgway wrote:Money is the problem and I don't have any special qualifications (I'm not a brain surgeon) that would grant me special access.

We're part of the EU, so allowed to live anywhere in it.

Markgway wrote:Only 30 so I still have time.

Me too. 31 though. I'm hoping to learn Spanish this year, after my first attempt earlier in the year didn't work out too well.

bradavon wrote:I didn't but as you bring it up.

I was just guessing...

While I agree a child "ideally" needs a male and female role model, what it need more is "good parenting". There are plenty of straight parents who frankly, should't be. At least with adoption (straight or gay) you have to jump through numerous hopes. You just need sperm, ovaries and two randy buggers for straight people to have kids.

Yeah, any fool can be a parent. I see ignorant, shit for brains dragging around their brats all the damn time, screaming and swearing at them. Are there more kids in need of adoption than prospective married parents? I don't know the figures, but probably. But I believe married couples should get priority. Once all the married couples (and then male-female partnerships) have been exahausted then we can look at gay parents. But I've seen cases where a married couple gets turned down because their too old (over 50) or too fat (really) yet gay parents...? No problem. If you even dare to question the logic you're branded a homophobe.

It's a true statement maybe but a true story, no. Care to turn it into a true story and give more than the newspaper headline?

I see. You think the headline hides the truth? I couldn't find an original link (the case was over a year ago) but here's the article text:

"Two young children are to be adopted by a gay couple, despite the protests of their grandparents. The devastated grandparents were told they would never see the youngsters again unless they dropped their opposition. The couple, who cannot be named, wanted to give the five-year-old boy and his four-year-old sister a loving home themselves. But they were ruled to be too old - at 46 and 59. For two years they fought for their rights to care for the children, whose 26-year- old mother is a recovering heroin addict. They agreed to an adoption only after they faced being financially crippled by legal bills. The final blow came when they were told the children were going to a gay household, even though several heterosexual couples wanted them. When the grandfather protested, he was told: 'You can either accept it, and there's a chance you'll see the children twice a year, or you can take that stance and never see them again.' The man said last night: 'It breaks my heart to think that our grandchildren are being forced to grow up in an environment without a mother figure. We are not prejudiced, but I defy anyone to explain to us how this can be in their best interests.' Social workers themselves have admitted that the little girl is 'more wary' of men than women."

We all know the only reason it's not "technically" called a marriage because Christians would get so hot under the collar about it. Is marriage a religious thing? No I don't think it is any more, no more than Christmas and Easter are for the masses.

I guess each religion has its own version of marriage, but it is a religious concept. I would go to a reg office myself so am probably not the best person to ask about the religious elements. Frankly I suspect that gays want it to be called marriage just to be bloody minded. I mean if the law recognises the union isn't THAT the point?

I don't think we are. We're largely an Atheist or Agnostic society, surely?

Nah, the majority of the population still label themselves as Christian of some form. Our legal system isn't relgious based, however, which puts us ahead of many Muslim countries.

I've never been to Uni, so therefore a student union. I wouldn't know what they talk about.

It's a figure of speech.

A quick look at the Daily Mail website shows me:

You won't get an argument from me about tabloid obsession with the cult of celebrity. That doesn't make The Mail invalid as a source of news, however. It's just means they're far from perfect. Every paper has leanings, an agenda of their own to promote. These days you get so much news on TV, radio and the web, that I can't be arsed taking the time to digest a broadsheet. Life's too short... lol

We're part of the EU, so allowed to live anywhere in it.

I was thinking about English-speaking countries. Although you weren't to know that.

Me too. 31 though. I'm hoping to learn Spanish this year, after my first attempt earlier in the year didn't work out too well.

I think poor concentration which makes learning a new language a bitch. I'd probably have a stab at Mandarin if I were to try again.

The Daily Mail makes up so much rubbish, its unbeliveable. A dispicable paper