Abortion doctor murdered in the US

[EvaUnit02]

Oh dear.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8076253.stm

Sixty-seven year-old George Tiller was killed just after 1000 (1500 GMT) at the Reformation Lutheran Church.

The gunman, described as a white man, fled in a car, but officials say a suspect is now in custody in Wichita.

Dr Tiller, one of the few US doctors who performed so-called late-term abortions, had been vilified by anti-abortionists in the US.

His clinic - called Women's Health Care Services - had often been the site of demonstrations, and he had been shot and wounded by an assailant 16 years ago.

Here's a description of his practice
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mary-mape ... 09529.html

In 1991 and until his murder, Dr. Tiller was one of the few doctors in this country who performed late-term abortions. Despite what Operation Rescue claimed, none of his clients were ending pregnancies on a whim. None of them wanted to be there.

Each case was a tragedy -- a much anticipated child discovered to have only a partially formed head, a baby that was dying in the womb and had to be delivered, a child with medical problems so profound as to be unimaginable, a diagnosis that meant a child's life outside its mother's body would be both brief and brutal.

Tiller's clients often included couples who had been hoping to become parents but had their hearts broken late in pregnancy when they received horrifying medical news about their much-wanted babies.

Christian zealots are such scum bags. The US Department of Homeland Security now considers right-wing extremists to be terrorists, amen to that I say.

[Yi-Long]

The killer must have been 'pro-life'(!)

Heard about this last night. It's beyond comprehension for normal sane people, but I'm sure there are religious fanatics in the USA (or anywhere else in the world) who agree with this nutcase.

[Markgway]

Murdering abortionists solves nothing.

I'm against abortion myself and think that the law needs to be changed to reduce the number of weeks under which an abortion can be legally carried out.

Exceptions should be made in rare health-related cases (for example deformity or major illness) or if the pregancy came about via rape.

It appears as though this doctor only performed late abortions that were very necessary.

I don't know enough without reading to comment further...

[bradavon]

General question that no pro-life person ever answers or seems to think about:

* What about all the millions of unwanted kids as it is, without bringing more into the world?
* What are we supposed to do with them all? Build endless homeless buildings to house them?
* Is it better to bring a child into an unloved world?

It's all very well saying it's wrong but you have to then deal with the consequences.

[Markgway]

* What about all the millions of unwanted kids as it is, without bringing more into the world?

Doesn't every unborn child deserve a chance? It's easy for us to say there are too many kids because our parents didn't abort us. We're here because we got that chance you seem eager to deprive others of. Maybe if "adults" thought before they fucked there wouldn't be so many unwanted kids. Abortion only encourages society to not take responsibility. But then we do live in an age we everything is someone else's fault don't we? You get pregnant you take responsibility. Be an adult.

* Is it better to bring a child into an unloved world?

Hmm... to be unloved or dead? Geez... what a choice!?! How many times do you think children are born when parents are "unsure" only for them to be their pride and joy. I'd rather live in that world than a world where kids are killed on the off chance that their lives might suck a bit. There are so many potential parents who can't have children willing to adopt. Not better to give a life than to take one?

[bradavon]

Doesn't every unborn child deserve a chance?

Well, that's where our opinions wildly differ. I disagree a foetus is a life, it's a form of life granted but not a life in the same sense a born baby is. Although I appreciate where do you draw the line, intelligent people far greater than us are best to decide that.

I also take the point of view that it's all too easy to solely think of the child and ignore everything else, including the mother, who has to carry this baby for 9 months. I'm not saying you are hear specifically but most pro-life certainly do.

Maybe if "adults" thought before they fucked there wouldn't be so many unwanted kids.

Like that's ever going to happen, it's a given it's just not going to happen. Maybe in heaven but in the real world, never.

Abortion only encourages society to not take responsibility.

I disagree. Like every other pro-life supporters, your arguments are incredibly simplistic. People simply aren't as simple as pro-life makes out.

There are so many potential parents who can't have children willing to adopt.

You have a point there, in that statistically there aren't enough children in this country for all those who want to adopt.

In short, if we're going to give it a name. I am pro-abortion, pro-choice.

[gasteropod]

I'm pro-abortion as long as it's less than 49 days after conception, as that is when I believe the soul enters the foetus.

[bradavon]

How so Gas?

[IronMonkey]

I'm pro-abortion as long as it's less than 49 days after conception, as that is when I believe the soul enters the foetus.

You what?!?!

[gasteropod]

DMT is released in the foetus's brain 49 days after conception, which just so happens to be the amount of time a soul wanders during the Bardo before being reincarnated (in Buddhism).

[bradavon]

Interesting.

What's the current UK legal limit?

[gasteropod]

24 weeks I think.

[grim_tales]

Well thats a lot more than 49 days

[bradavon]

24 weeks is 6 months, two-thirds of a pregnancy .

[gasteropod]

Which is far too much time to give someone to decide whether they want it or not...

[bradavon]

Any ideas, what the legal reasoning is behind the 24 week period?

[Markgway]

Well, that's where our opinions wildly differ. I disagree a foetus is a life, it's a form of life granted but not a life in the same sense a born baby is.

If a foetus has a heartbeat doesn't that make it as alive as any newborn? When we die it's because our hearts stop. That's the wisdom. Should the reverse not apply?

Am I saying abortion should be against the law? No, but I would significantly reduce the cut off point down from 24 wks. A baby can survive outside the womb at 22 wks which makes abortion past that stage grotesque.

I also take the point of view that it's all too easy to solely think of the child and ignore everything else, including the mother, who has to carry this baby for 9 months.

The mother has choices. The foetus/baby doesn't. It's the innocent party here. The mother chooses whether or not have unprotected sex. She chooses whether or not to take contraception (before or after). If the morning after pill isn't enough of a get-out clause WTF is? If anything the mother is given too much consideration. Freedom over responsibility. Something unplanned happens someone else will fix it. Part of the reason this world is so fucked up is because no one is willing to take responsibility for their actions. This is a prime example. Am I looking to be a father? Right now... no. But if I got a girl pregnant you can be damn sure I'd be a responsible parent.

Like that's ever going to happen, it's a given it's just not going to happen. Maybe in heaven but in the real world, never.

Then the world needs to change.... or is it just easier to end life?

I disagree. Like every other pro-life supporters, your arguments are incredibly simplistic. People simply aren't as simple as pro-life makes out.

My arguments are not simplistic. I find that assertion dismissive and insulting. Not least given that you've failed to provide any reasonable argument yourself. You may not agree with me but at least have the courtesy to accept that my viewpoint is thought out and sincere.

Why is it that anytime a liberal such as yourself debates a controversial subject they choose to discredit the opposition rather than provide a logical, cohesive argument that might actually persuade a positionional shift?

You're a racist, xenophobic, homophobic, sexist, misogynistic, right-wing, facist, planet-killing, meat-eating, war-monger... is your stock-in-trade.

You've never won an argument with me because you don't argue. You insult and sneer until one of us goes away. Unchallenged you revel in your self-righteous "victory". Hooray. A free subscriiption to The Guardian and a well-earned pat on the back from Polly Toynbee.

[Shen]

If a foetus has a heartbeat doesn't that make it as alive as any newborn? When we die it's because our hearts stop. That's the wisdom. Should the reverse not apply?

Am I saying abortion should be against the law? No, but I would significantly reduce the cut off point down from 24 wks. A baby can survive outside the womb at 22 wks which makes abortion past that stage grotesque.

I agree with you here, 24 weeks is far far too late. I also agree with the child being alive when its heart begins to beat.

The mother has choices. The foetus/baby doesn't. It's the innocent party here. The mother chooses whether or not have unprotected sex. She chooses whether or not to take contraception (before or after). If the morning after pill isn't enough of a get-out clause WTF is? If anything the mother is given too much consideration. Freedom over responsibility. Something unplanned happens someone else will fix it. Part of the reason this world is so fucked up is because no one is willing to take responsibility for their actions. This is a prime example. Am I looking to be a father? Right now... no. But if I got a girl pregnant you can be damn sure I'd be a responsible parent.

Whilst I agree people have to take responsibility, there are other considerations than just being irresponsible. What if the girl is responsible, if they use protection but it fails and they end up pregnant? And i'm not speaking about the ones that go sleeping around in particular, but ones in relationships. The morning after-pill like any other contraception is not 100% effective, the most effective is just 89% so its actually quite a low rate of success.
The choice of abortion is not easy and should not be made to seem like its a choice women can make without any thought. Because of my condition, my partner and i have had to think very carefully about what would happen in the case of an unexpected pregnancy, and just the hypothetical thought of having to choose an abortion for my own safety tears me apart, even though i don't actually want children. When i will have a child, i want to provide the best life i can, that means being able to provide for it financially as well as emotionally and mentally. And sometimes you just cannot do that. I know that my situation is different because of health problems related to myself so isn't that representative of what we are talking about but it was just to make a point of the difficulty of such a decision. I have known a number of women who have had to choose abortions for various reasons, who ended up pregnant despite being careful and each one has found the decision one of the hardest they have ever had to make. On the flip side, abortion is also becoming a form of contraception amongst young girls who can sometimes have 3 or 4 abortions rather than use a condom or the pill. Here I absolutely thoroughly disagree with abortion as a form of contraception.
I completely understand your point about responsibility and if someone fucks up why should a child have to suffer for their mistakes, when there are alternatives such as adoption. But many women are not emotionally equipped to deal with the task of carrying a child for 9 months and then giving it away. Its a sad fact but its the case most often.

Like that's ever going to happen, it's a given it's just not going to happen. Maybe in heaven but in the real world, never.

Then the world needs to change.... or is it just easier to end life?

I absolutely agree that things need to change, in my opinion the majority of unwanted pregnancies come about by laziness and ignorance. As soon as i got with my partner, i looked up the best contraceptive possible. And i really don;t understand why other girls cannot do this, I have an implant in my arm, that lasts for 3 years and has around 1 in 10000 chance of failing. Being smart and safe is not hard in this day and age, there are dozens of available contraceptives out there and most, if not all, are free. Its not exactly time consuming to go down to your doctors office or family planning clinic and get the best for you.

Abortion is such a fierce subject, and everyone is entitled to their own opinions. One cannot argue that their opinion is more valid than the others. I disagree with some points of Marks but i also think his approach, whilst it may be a bit extreme for my liking, has some fair points. As does Brads, Pro-choice is an advancement of equal rights for women, the ability to choose their life, with or without kids. however for me this is not an excuse for free abortions for all. Increased freedom, comes with increased responsibilities.

[bradavon]

Why is it that anytime a liberal such as yourself debates a controversial subject they choose to discredit the opposition rather than provide a logical, cohesive argument that might actually persuade a positionional shift?

I believe I have. As far as you're concerned it's all black and white. Women should always use contraception, they must have the kid if they get pregnant and who gives a damn about the kid once it's born. End of.

You say I'm being simplistic and to an extent I am (I take the point of view that freedom of choice is crucial in a modern society) but likewise so are you. You're being simplistic even pointing out that the liberal way (yet again) is always wishy washy and never has any basis for substance.

While we're on the subjection of insulting. I find your constant jabbing that I am a liberal insulting, as if it's somehow wrong or weak.

You've never won an argument with me because you don't argue.

Well, unlike you I don't really care about winning an argument. If it makes you feel all big and fuzzy inside I'm happy to say you've won this argument. I wasn't aware we're having one and don't give a damn.

A free subscriiption to The Guardian and a well-earned pat on the back from Polly Toynbee.

No thanks. I read the Guardian once, rubbish.

What if the girl is responsible, if they use protection but it fails and they end up pregnant? And i'm not speaking about the ones that go sleeping around in particular, but ones in relationships.

Are you saying women (and lets not forget men) who sleep with people out of a relationship, deserve to have protection fail and get pregnant?

If you use protection, it's bad luck if you get pregnant, no matter who you are.

The morning after-pill like any other contraception is not 100% effective, the most effective is just 89% so its actually quite a low rate of success.

I presume you mean the most effective morning after pill here? Because condoms (if you used properly) are 98% effective.

The choice of abortion is not easy and should not be made to seem like its a choice women can make without any thought.

You seriously reckon anyone takes abortion lightly?

Otherwise I agree with many of your points .

[Shen]

1. Tell me where I mentioned that those who sleep around deserve to fall pregnant? If you are careful, even if you sleep with a 100 men in a month, and it fails then thats horrible bad luck. Don't try to put words into my mouth please.

2. I thought it was pretty clear that i was referring to the morning after pill, as mark mentioned it in his post as the opt out clause, i was merely mentioning that it is just 89% effective. And actually the most efficient form of contraception is the Implanon implant. I can fail but its very reliable.

3. Well from reading these posts not one of you mentioned the effect the choice will have on the woman. I have heard numerous people, mostly men i might add, suggest that abortion is an easy thing, in many debates. Whilst i am not suggesting that you guys are the same, i was merely making a point.

[bradavon]

1. Tell me where I mentioned that those who sleep around deserve to fall pregnant? If you are careful, even if you sleep with a 100 men in a month, and it fails then thats horrible bad luck. Don't try to put words into my mouth please.

I did ask the question . What do you mean by this then?

"And i'm not speaking about the ones that go sleeping around in particular, but ones in relationships."

[Shen]

I added the words "in particular" if i were referring only to those in relationships those two words would not be needed.
However to elaborate on that sentence, if you are say 19, in university, with a long term partner and using contraception and it fails. The abortion might feel like your only option given the time and situation you are in. Also those more promiscuous women who use the pill for example but go out getting lashed and sleeping around may well have a higher chance of failure and getting pregnant as sickness and illness reduce the effectiveness of the pill. But no they do not deserve to experience such bad luck, they just deserve to respect themselves more.

[grim_tales]

I agree with Shen, a woman/man can use contraception but it may still fail and result in an unplanned/unwanted pregnancy. Also I would hope both parties (woman/man) have choices, unless in extreme cases if it's done against the woman's will (say if she's raped). I mean, it takes TWO people to make a baby (usually).

[Markgway]

Whilst I agree people have to take responsibility........ actually quite a low rate of success.

That can happen... but is abortion the answer?

Sometimes unexpected pregnancies do happen but rather than be pleasently surprised or honourably take responsibility for a mistake (which I would do) 'we' terminate.

How can it be easier to kill a part of yourself than bring a child into the world (even if it is only to hand it out for adoption)? I couldn't do it.

The choice of abortion is not easy and should not be made to seem like its a choice women can make without any thought.

I'm sure for many it's a traumatic decision... but how bad can the thought of being a parent be that any woman would choose the option of termination?

If you bought a puppy and later realised you couldn't look after it you would hand it over to a shelter. You wouldn't drown it would you? Yet so many foetuses are aborted it would suggest we treat them worse than abandoned pets.

Because of my condition, my partner and i have had to think very carefully about what would happen in the case of an unexpected pregnancy, and just the hypothetical thought of having to choose an abortion for my own safety tears me apart, even though i don't actually want children.

I realise that you have health/physical issues and that puts you into another category entirely. No one but the most fanatical pro-lifer would expect you to risk your own life for the sake of a baby. Any choice to terminate you made would be understandable if still tragic.

When i will have a child, i want to provide the best life i can, that means being able to provide for it financially as well as emotionally and mentally. And sometimes you just cannot do that.

I agree. In a perfect world we would all be parents exactly when we're ready and capable. But failure to meet these criteria isn't grounds for termination. It just means you have to work harder and change your plans. A new life it seems to me is worth that at least.

On the flip side, abortion is also becoming a form of contraception amongst young girls who can sometimes have 3 or 4 abortions rather than use a condom or the pill. Here I absolutely thoroughly disagree with abortion as a form of contraception.

Yes. I've seen the reports. Quite alarming statistics. You really wonder how callous some people can be?

I completely understand your point about responsibility and if someone fucks up why should a child have to suffer for their mistakes, when there are alternatives such as adoption. But many women are not emotionally equipped to deal with the task of carrying a child for 9 months and then giving it away. Its a sad fact but its the case most often.

If we're talking mental breakdown then I would class that as a health issue... I'm thinking more of women who can't be arsed doing the right thing because they "have lives" or "don't want to get fat".

I absolutely agree that things need to change, in my opinion the majority of unwanted pregnancies come about by laziness and ignorance.

Sadly true.

Abortion is such a fierce subject, and everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

Agreed. I just wish Brad could adopt your approach to the subject and debate without belittling or labelling everyone who disagrees as some kind of nutter.

[Markgway]

While we're on the subjection of insulting. I find your constant jabbing that I am a liberal insulting, as if it's somehow wrong or weak.

A response to your constant jabbing that I'm the next best thing to a right-winger, as if that's somehow wrong or weak.

As it happens I'm not partisan and prefer to use my own mind to pick and choose my political views. I can lean to the left or right depending on the issue at hand.

Have you ever NOT vocalised the liberal viewpoint here?

Well, unlike you I don't really care about winning an argument. If it makes you feel all big and fuzzy inside I'm happy to say you've won this argument. I wasn't aware we're having one and don't give a damn.

That's not an answer. Yet again you've attempted to turn the tables as though it's my fault you can't formulate a decent argument by suggesting we're not even having a debate. So what are we doing here? And can you let Shen know because I'm pretty sure that she like me thinks we're having a debate.

No thanks. I read the Guardian once, rubbish.

Lol, yeah. That was cheap shot.