Bullets 'n' Babes

Yi-Long wrote:and it's not strictly about right or wrong...

Except when it is... as in this case. The Black September scum murdered twelve innocent people. It doesn't get more wrong than that.

"The attack was widely condemned around the world, with King Hussein of Jordan - the only leader of an Arab country to publicly denounce the Olympic attack - calling it a "savage crime against civilization… perpetrated by sick minds.""

The Mossad murder of an innocent man in Norway (a case of mistaken identity) was also wrong (and a tragedy), but, it should be pointed out, not an intentional act of terrorism.

Markgway wrote:

Yi-Long wrote:and it's not strictly about right or wrong...

Except when it is... as in this case. The Black September scum murdered twelve innocent people. It doesn't get more wrong than that.

"The attack was widely condemned around the world, with King Hussein of Jordan - the only leader of an Arab country to publicly denounce the Olympic attack - calling it a "savage crime against civilization… perpetrated by sick minds.""

The Mossad murder of an innocent man in Norway (a case of mistaken identity) was also wrong (and a tragedy), but, it should be pointed out, not an intentional act of terrorism.

Yeah, I was talking about on a bigger scale obviously...
Ofcourse the killing of innocents is wrong. It's wrong when the USA do it, it's wrong when Osama Bin Laden does it, it's wrong when the Israeli's do it, and it's wrong when the Palestinians do it. Goes without saying.

An eye for an eye makes the whole world go blind.

Markgway wrote:The Mossad murder of an innocent man in Norway (a case of mistaken identity) was also wrong (and a tragedy), but, it should be pointed out, not an intentional act of terrorism.

What is your point?

Yi-Long wrote:An eye for an eye makes the whole world go blind.

But there must be punishment for wrongs. If I killed your family you'd want to kill me, right? I wouldn't deserve to live, so why should I be allowed to? I understand that there comes a point where debate and discussion has to take over from violence in order for a peace process to move forward (eg, Northern Ireland), but I really don't think that applies in the Munich case. This was cold-blooded execution in which 13 innocent people died. That's not politics, that's terrorism.

thelostdragon wrote:What is your point?

Just what I said. Which part is unclear?

Markgway wrote:

thelostdragon wrote:What is your point?

Just what I said. Which part is unclear?

Nothing is unclear, I just wanted to double check. Because the "but it should be pointed out"-part in...

The Mossad murder of an innocent man in Norway (a case of mistaken identity) was also wrong (and a tragedy), but, it should be pointed out, not an intentional act of terrorism.

...sounds like you are saying that while it was wrong, it is less wrong than what happened before at the Olympics. To me innocents are equal. Both killings were equally wrong and I don't care whether the killers are so-called secret agents or terrorists.

Markgway wrote:

Yi-Long wrote:An eye for an eye makes the whole world go blind.

But there must be punishment for wrongs. If I killed your family you'd want to kill me, right? I wouldn't deserve to live, so why should I be allowed to? I understand that there comes a point where debate and discussion has to take over from violence in order for a peace process to move forward (eg, Northern Ireland), but I really don't think that applies in the Munich case. This was cold-blooded execution in which 13 innocent people died. That's not politics, that's terrorism.

Yes and no. Yeah it's terrorisme and cold-blooded murder, but it's also very much politics! It's an answer to many years of oppression (sp?) and Israel bombing other innocent people in and around Israel.

I can understand revenge very very well. But in these kinds of conflicts you also have to look at what is causing the hate, and take that reasoning away. It should be 2-fold. Go after the people who are responsible for killing innocents with all your might, while at the same time making sure you are not hurting innocents, and making sure you dont increase the hate towards you.

Ofcourse, 'war and killing' is a multi-million dollar business, so it wont stop. It will never stop. These companies need to make money so they'll just find new battlegrounds, give 1 group some cheap weapons, and watch what will happen next.

grim_tales wrote:Brad, yes I did
Yi, why can't both side stop killing each other? Nothing will get better if militants keep attacking the other side, leading to retaliation. There must be both Israelis and Plaestinians who want peace right?

OFCOURSE there are many MANY Israelis and Palestinians who want peace. in fact, I'm sure the vast majority just want to leave peacefull lives, so they can build a family, have a career, have a home, etc.

The problem is that Israel has been oppression palestinians for 40+ years now. Imagine that. When Hitler was in power and taking over other countries etc, there were also minorities fighting that oppression. It's logical.

If you want there to be peace, Israel has to undo all it's wrongs, which TBH they can never do, as the scar is too deep already. They have oppressed for too long, taken too many lifes, too many land, destroyed too many buildings and dreams, etc.

Even if 99 out of 100 palestinians want peace, that 1 guy that wants revenge will still mess any potential hope for peace up.
And the same goes for the other side, although that's slightly different.

That's why the whole idea of 'peacetalks' is a nice idealisme, but it isnt realisme.

Good luck to Bushy trying to work out peace between Israel and Palestine before the end of his final term, he's going to need it.

EvaUnit02 wrote:Good luck to Bushy trying to work out peace between Israel and Palestine before the end of his final term, he's going to need it.

Yeah, Bush 'I'm a uniter not a divider'. who has made republicans and democrats even further apart from eachother than ever before.

Good luck to him for explaining to the Palestinians about why he allows Israel to get away with all kinds of bad shit, while he bombs and threats whole other nations for much much less... (!)

Bush is a complete moronic dictator. Yeah, I said dictator.
Mr. 'I wanna bring democracy', yet vetoes every bill that he doesnt personally agree with(!)

EvaUnit02 wrote:Good luck to Bushy trying to work out peace between Israel and Palestine before the end of his final term, he's going to need it.

I almost fell of my chair laughing when I first heard that. He really is the dumbest fuck alive. When he eventually leaves the bubble he lives in he'll realise what a dumb statement that was.

He's desperate for a legacy, that won't be it and he already has one.

Yi-Long wrote:Bush is a complete moronic dictator. Yeah, I said dictator.

He's many things and I'm sure no fan but he's not a dictator. They do have many freedoms in America Dictators would never allow.

I would say he's not really for democracy and human rights though.

thelostdragon wrote:Nothing is unclear, I just wanted to double check. Because the "but it should be pointed out"-part in...

The Mossad murder of an innocent man in Norway (a case of mistaken identity) was also wrong (and a tragedy), but, it should be pointed out, not an intentional act of terrorism.

...sounds like you are saying that while it was wrong, it is less wrong than what happened before at the Olympics. To me innocents are equal. Both killings were equally wrong and I don't care whether the killers are so-called secret agents or terrorists.

It WAS less wrong IMO (though I'm not thrilled about those terms) because the intent was not to kill an innocent but a terrorist (and thus not only take revenge but prevent further attrocities). That an innocent was killed is of course tragic and the agents should've been punished for fucking up. BUT there's a difference between mistakenly killing an innocent man and the deliberate staged murder of THIRTEEN known innocents. If you can't see that then there's no point us continuing this debate.

I get what you are saying. Let me just say there are possibly as many people who believe that Mossad didn't fuck up their mission in that case. Don't want to elaborate on this too much, but the death of that guy was of big importance to them.

Yi-Long wrote:

EvaUnit02 wrote:Good luck to Bushy trying to work out peace between Israel and Palestine before the end of his final term, he's going to need it.

Yeah, Bush 'I'm a uniter not a divider'. who has made republicans and democrats even further apart from eachother than ever before.

Good luck to him for explaining to the Palestinians about why he allows Israel to get away with all kinds of bad shit, while he bombs and threats whole other nations for much much less... (!)

Bush is a complete moronic dictator. Yeah, I said dictator.
Mr. 'I wanna bring democracy', yet vetoes every bill that he doesnt personally agree with(!)

Christ, you really do come as a more articulate version of Romero at times.

I'm no Bush fan but he's not a dictator, being as thick as pigshit doesnt mean he's a tyrant.

EvaUnit02 wrote:

Yi-Long wrote:

EvaUnit02 wrote:Good luck to Bushy trying to work out peace between Israel and Palestine before the end of his final term, he's going to need it.

Yeah, Bush 'I'm a uniter not a divider'. who has made republicans and democrats even further apart from eachother than ever before.

Good luck to him for explaining to the Palestinians about why he allows Israel to get away with all kinds of bad shit, while he bombs and threats whole other nations for much much less... (!)

Bush is a complete moronic dictator. Yeah, I said dictator.
Mr. 'I wanna bring democracy', yet vetoes every bill that he doesnt personally agree with(!)

Christ, you really do come as a more articulate version of Romero at times.

Ofcourse

But come on, lets not pretend it's democracy thats going on, when you look at his vetoes etc.
He really seems like everything has to go his way, and if it doesnt, he'll just veto untill he does get to have it his way...

@ Grim:

I think you guys have the habit of taking democracy too literally at times. Agreed it's not democracy in the strictest sense but do you honestly expect democracy to be 100% perfect?

I'm just happy we're all damn luckier than a lot of people in the world. Speaking generally now, when I hear people moan how bad the UK is I think Christ you don't know how lucky you are. The idea of being able to get a pension when you retire in many parts of the world is unheard of yet people still moan the government doesn't give them enough.

spanish pensioners get a free 2 week summer holiday paid for by their government every year-we look after our pensioners poorly imo

As it happens I think we do too.

I didn't know that.

I agree with you Saltysam.
I didnt know that either BTW - we give our pensioners the shittiest pensions in Europe - why?

thelostdragon wrote:I get what you are saying. Let me just say there are possibly as many people who believe that Mossad didn't fuck up their mission in that case. Don't want to elaborate on this too much, but the death of that guy was of big importance to them.

You obviously have info that I don't so I guess we'll leave it at that.