Interesting article about secularism vs religion

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 09 May 2007, 16:10

http://comment.independent.co.uk/column ... 519101.ece

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 09 May 2007, 17:52

Interesting.
Some of that (women being raped and forced to cover themselves etc) is horrible

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 15 May 2007, 19:00

Site down

slasher13 · Post by **slasher13** » 15 May 2007, 20:49

It up again Brad

supporters of the hijab are in revolt against the constitution that forbids religious symbols in public workplaces.

My views are what ever your religion, you can wear what you like, cross, star of David, or the crescent. Bloody hell, in the past it was okay, what is different.. oh yeah.. after 9/11, everything went to pop including PC.

"We will never let this happen. These ninjas will make us into Saudi Arabia and Iran. I would kill my own daughters before they have to live in that hell. You in the UK have let them take control, too. I come and see small girls with their bodies covered up and wearing scarves. Why didn't anyone protect them? You want to become like Iran?"

I know plenty of people in Leicester, Houslow who are happy wearing this. If a small girls wishes to do this, it is her choice. So if you daughter wants to cover herself up for modesty, then you want to kill her??..

This year it brought a winter of extra hard repression. Morality police are busily rounding up "badly" covered up females - teachers, journalists, lawyers and activists. They kick and slap the victims, stuff them into (black curtained) minibuses and take them off to prisons where blindfolded they are interrogated and "corrected".

Mmm that is bad, I agree, I haven't heard or read anything, so will read up on that.

Yet from Canada to Australia, Muslim women are being encouraged (and many forced) into hijab, jilbab, niqab and full burkha.

Why not tackle that issue, in fact why Yasmin Alibhai-Brown had not really touched the main issue which is to tackle the culture that this is breeding. Everyone heard of girls being forced to marriage (even though it is forbidden in Islam

). This is the main issue to tackle in my eyes.

According to reliable figures, 150,000 are locked up in dreadful conditions. Some are raped. A stray, wayward wisp of hair apparently drives men to dirty thoughts and unholy acts for which they cannot then be blamed.

Would love to know the source, interesting that none is given, and what a generalization, that a bit of hair will send men into high rabbits!!. Can't quite see that happening, especially in places like Dubai, where there is corruption, and becoming seedier

gojensen · Post by **gojensen** » 16 May 2007, 09:17

Actually what you do in private and stuff I don't mind so much, but these headgears that cover up all but the eyes can be a real problem in "real life". Like say school. Teacher's have been complaining about it... (and I'd bet it'd be real easy to cheat on exams, since nobody can see it's actually YOU taking the test...) It would also be a bit odd and possible a job-stopper in certain service professions, like with doctors and other people were you really should get to "know" each other on a personal level.

Personally I would be very dubious of, say, my dentist if all I could see were the eyes (they already scare me enough

)...

All that said I didn't read the link and I'm guessing I'm actually not commenting on the topic of this thread at all

I don't think Islam is the problem, I do think the muslim "culture" that seemingly is prevailing is though (or atleast seemingly is the loudest, even if it's a minority? Problem is good guys don't riot thus we don't see them on the news...). (And we can take this much further than muslims... anyone want to talk about the abuse and mistreatment of girls found in Africa, China (Asia) and South America?! Even by grown Women?!)

I tend to think that Europe (and to a degree the US

) has grown more accepting culturally than most of the rest of the world. And this is probably strongly related to the economic growth we've earned through abuse of the rest of the world over the past several hundred years. I see China growing rapidly now, and with anything that's growing quickly there will be some growing pains - but in a generation or two I think they'll have reach or surpassed the same cultural and economic traits we have in the "rich west". This will however leave most of the Middle-East and Eastern-Europe way behind... What can they offer? Middle-East has oil which we really don't want since it pollutes as much, Eastern-Europe has cheap labour... which will help them a bit... but not much I'd wager and not enough to get to up to "our level".

Well, seems I went off a bit there. And while I'm here, I also think we should do away with religion. It's done too much harm since it's inception.

slasher13 wrote:Would love to know the source, interesting that none is given, and what a generalization, that a bit of hair will send men into high rabbits!

It probably won't... but then again we're used to seeing it all the time so we don't really know do we? What I do know is that some stuck up old guy terrified of change believes it and uses all the power and force he has to coherce is thoughts and will onto these women and their families.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 16 May 2007, 19:57

I think what the writer is getting at is that even for those women who choose to cover up as adults it's not really an informed choice at all as it's indocturned into them from childhood and dictated by a male-centric religious culture. In other words they've spent years being made to think that it's normal to cover up so why would they not do it? There probably should be a law against forcing children to adopt a religious persuasion as only adults can fully understand what it is they're becoming involved with. If my parents had been devout Christians then who knows how I would've turned out?

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 16 May 2007, 20:48

Slasher how does an arranged marriage work in Islam? I'm sure the couple meet beforehand and get to know each other etc

It's not just a case of being told "You must marry this person" right?

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 16 May 2007, 21:44

I don't mean to tread on Slasher's toes by answering this, but marriages do not need to be arranged in Islam. It's the culture of the family in question that dictates whether or not the marriage is arranged. It's fair to say that the majority of marriages are arranged, but they don't have to be.
As for the whole getting to know someone before you marry them thing, it varies. Sometimes communication can occur between the engaged parties, other times not.
The sheer amount of pressure placed on a person can be enough to send 'em to the loony bin. However, you do get acceptance in other cases. It's all down to the individual.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 16 May 2007, 22:09

Interesting indeed.

A Muslim country joining the EU would move us forward a millennia in a few seconds. I doubt it's going to happen, it's the main reason (that and it's human rights issues) which are mostly stopping Turkey entering,

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 16 May 2007, 22:19

Thanks Kurgan

I wasn't suggesting they did, just wondering what the difference was between "forcing" and arranging, arranged has the person's consent obviously (of both parties), forced does not. Slasher said forcing girls to marry is forbidden in Islam.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 16 May 2007, 23:26

It's a bit of a blurred line. There are levels of force. Pressure is a huge factor in some cases, and whilst it's not forcing in the "You must marry!" sense, it can be just as crippling.

slasher13 · Post by **slasher13** » 17 May 2007, 08:00

Yup As Kurgan had mentioned, is the same as what I would say, Cheers for that