The Big Boss: HKL vs FOX

Killer Meteor · Post by **Killer Meteor** » 01 Oct 2006, 21:23

bradavon wrote:* Personally I'd prefer Mandarin but can live with Cantonese.

You can live with the score being changed and cat-cries clumsily pasted onto the audio? Honestly...

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 02 Oct 2006, 02:44

bradavon wrote:How can anyone pass judgement on a DVD that isn't even out yet is beyond me.

NO MANDARIN!!!

The Fox TBB is only part of a box set which for me anyway means it loses oodles of points.

I understand that.

Any chance of a FOF comparison? I can include the HKL PE.

Sure. I'll put up some Fox caps tomorrow.

I'd love to see a WOTD comparison more but Grim can't do captures.

I should've taken them before I sent the disc. Oops.

If you'd sold it to me Mark I'd have been able too . I'd have paid £8 too

Lol, bastard!!

You interested in the Game of Death movies per chance?

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 02 Oct 2006, 02:51

bradavon wrote:* Is there a 5.1 remix on the Fox?

Yes, but English only. The Chinese tracks are mono. The Riverside scene uses the 1971 dub, same as HKL. I checked because I figured someone would ask.

I presume you mean the title screen when you say no unrestored beginning? If so I couldn't give a fuck. It's a title screen!

The Fox credits are in Chinese/English as opposed to English alone.

Personally I'd prefer Mandarin but can live with Cantonese.

There is quite a difference. Voices, music, foley all changed.

Mark is all wrong

No he's not. 8)

chenlung · Post by **chenlung** » 02 Oct 2006, 09:49

Is there a 5.1 remix on the Fox? In Mandarin of course.

No, but HKL wasted the opportunity (if it was good) by cramming it into a 2.0 output.

The Fox doesn't have any commentary. So it's not a fair comparison if you include those.

For this issue, I wasn't 'comparing' it.

I presume you mean the title screen when you say no unrestored beginning? If so I couldn't give a fuck. It's a title screen!

The audio is cut off at the start and starts abruptly. Any issue with no proper title screen annoys me.

Possible pinkification - Just because of FOF does it doesn't mean TBB will.

That's why I said 'possibly' as the majority or all Contender titles have had this done.

Agreed the commentary is a concern but overall I'd say the PE is looking much better.

Extras-wise, yes definately but they still abandoned the Bey commentary when it was available and the same length which is bizarre.

Personally I'd prefer Mandarin but can live with Cantonese.

Cat-cries don't work for me and I'd give the Cantonese a chance if it wasn't for those.

The Fox looks like a cheap knock off and like I said crucially you have to get an entire box set to get it.

I would buy it but as you said, it's a boxset only.

Yes, but English only. The Chinese tracks are mono. The Riverside scene uses the 1971 dub, same as HKL. I checked because I figured someone would ask.

Hmm, interesting. I'm sure someone said it was 1974 a while back but there you go... I wonder how Media Asia (or whoever) got their hands on it. This could prove HKL never had access to it possibly? The 1974 audio exists. This is something we could investigate.

I'm already more than happy with HKL's FOF and GOD thanks. Their WOTD really needs fixing but I'm not getting a box set just for that one. The HKL PE of FOF is excellent, so what if it's a little pink (the excellent transfer otherwise, audio selection and extras more than make up for it). Mark is all wrong

Have to disagree and Mark isn't wrong. Aside from the lack of mono English and Cantonese, proper subtitles (ones which try to avoid using the word "fart" as it's a bit insensitive for this type of movie unless that's what he really said), Mandarin trailer and proper anamorphic flagging in Cantonese trailer (and the audio at the beginning - again thanks to Media Asia), it's OK. It's not a 'little' pink.

Besides like I said a lot of this is being based on speculation than fact.

A few things (because I said 'possible' so I wasn't lying), yes (although I wouldn't be surprised if it was true). But seeing we have evidence, it's 'fact'.

What review and who on earth is David R Gees? I apologise if someone has posted a link to a review. Where is it please?

http://p081.ezboard.com/fkungfufandomfr ... 1174.topic.

p.s - From what I can see of the spec. there is Cantonese soundtracks only.

Um... Yeah

...

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 02 Oct 2006, 15:12

chenlung wrote:Hmm, interesting. I'm sure someone said it was 1974 a while back but there you go... I wonder how Media Asia (or whoever) got their hands on it. This could prove HKL never had access to it possibly? The 1974 audio exists. This is something we could investigate.

The original dub was done in 1971 alongside the Mandarin track for the director's cut.

A new English dub was prepared in 1974 for the export release ("dope in ice", "tat bastards") and it's this one that's used on the Fox-Ultimate disc; except, however, when it reverts to the '71 dub for the Riverside Scene. Why? No idea, but as you say, the HKL is the same.

Killer Meteor · Post by **Killer Meteor** » 02 Oct 2006, 15:15

1974 is when the film was released in Japan. From what I've been told, it was in English with additional music by Joseph Koo, including the Mike Remidios song "To Be A Man" - I'd love to hear that song! I don't know what edit it was but I presume this is what people mean when they say 1974. I imagine the dub would have been done when the film was originally released in 1971 and may have done the usual in South Africa, etc. The redubbing and rescoring for the US/UK release was apprently done by National General, who wanted the film to sound more professional.

For the record, the English tracks on the HKL DVDs of Fist Of Fury are taken from the Japanese version, as evidenced by the Mike Remidios song

Edit: Reading Mark's post, the US version was released in 1972 or 1973 - depending on who you ask. IMDB says 1972 but I think it's 1973, given when King Boxer and Enter The Dragon were released - and the UK release - butchered into a migrane inducing mess by that charming fascist, the newly arrived James Ferman - was released in 1974

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 02 Oct 2006, 15:42

The Fox disc is missing most of the cuts mentioned here:

http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... ichte.com/

I know I mentioned the interlacing before but it's worth emphasising for those who have big screens. Frequently pauses on my PC produce ghosting. If you have any IVL Shaw Bros films you'll know what I'm talking about. Still, that Mandarin Mono is damn good, and despite the interlacing it's got the best looking image to date.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 02 Oct 2006, 15:52

The Big Boss was first passed by the BBFC on the 12/2/74

Fists of Fury (The Big Boss) was passed by the MPAA in 1973 (no specific date given).

It's logical to assume therefore that the second English dub was done in either 1972 or 1973 - it had to be after the film was re-edited and I think this was done by Harvest in 1972 to appease the new censorial crackdown.

The 1974 audio must be the Japanese track Ivan mentions. I've never heard that song myself.

chenlung · Post by **chenlung** » 02 Oct 2006, 17:49

HKL had planned to include this 'To Be a Man' song by the lame Frank Sinatra-wannabe 'Mike Remidios'.

This Peter Thomas soundtrack was actually created 1973. My mistake. By the US only ('National General Pictures') as opposed to the official export version by GH in 1971.

Note that Fox uses the Cantonese version, the Fox 'Masters Collection' uses the 1973 English version which has 9 subtitute or additional scenes exclusively so it isn't really cut or anything 8) .

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 02 Oct 2006, 19:19

Markgway wrote:You interested in the Game of Death movies per chance?

No thanks. GOD2 doesn't interest me and GOD the extras are the reason to own it and HKL have done a lovely job with those.

but they still abandoned the Bey commentary when it was available and the same length which is bizarre.

I don't agree with it but I reckon because they didn't want two commentaries and wanted to just have new extras.

Mandarin trailer and proper anamorphic flagging in Cantonese trailer (and the audio at the beginning - again thanks to Media Asia)

You care "that" much about a trailer?

I know I mentioned the interlacing before but it's worth emphasising for those who have big screens. Frequently pauses on my PC produce ghosting.

The HKL will be Progressive

There is quite a difference. Voices, music, foley all changed.

Fair enough but you don't miss what you've never heard.

Normally I hate it when the wrong language is included but in the case of Cantonese/Mandarin I can live with it. Except when it's clearly a HK film (like IA) or Mainland film (like Hero) but old school HK cinema like this works just as well IMO in either Cantonese or Mandarin.

Markgway wrote:The Fox disc is missing most of the cuts mentioned here:

http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... ichte.com/

The Fox is Cut? No I must be missing something. That page makes no sense to me.

http://p081.ezboard.com/fkungfufandomfr ... 1174.topic.

Thanks Bleeper but I'll wait for a proper review. That's just a paragraph and only really tells us the basics (like confirmed audio selection). For example one sentence on the transfer tells us very, very little.

fake Lee war cries from his other films

Personally I freakin' love these and am pleased the Cantonese has them. Sure they were their originally but they sound cracking whenever BL does them. For me that's a knock against the Mandarin.

chenlung · Post by **chenlung** » 02 Oct 2006, 19:45

I don't agree with it but I reckon because they didn't want two commentaries and wanted to just have new extras.

That didn't stop them from including trailers included for the 1st disc for instance

.

You care "that" much about a trailer?

Doesn't matter if it was a trailer (could have many deleted scenes for instance) or how much I care for it, it's still a fuck-up. Take 'Decendants of Wing Chun', the trailer on the 'Vengeance Video' DVD was wrongly telecined and you can barely see it. It may have had some deleted scenes.

The HKL will be Progressive

Indeed, the only thing to recommend compared to other version (aside from extras and cleaned-up subtitles).

Fair enough but you don't miss what you've never heard.

Difference is, Mark HAS heard it. Wang's score has some really nice sections with the strings (check out the HKL or Fox English soundtrack for a sample).

The Fox is Cut? No I must be missing something. That page makes no sense to me.

As said in my previous post, this is the Cantonese version (with the English and Mandarin soundtracks edited to fit). The 9 scenes featuring on the 1973 version were deleted (likely due to print damage) and obviously the 1971 scenes (likely down to pace and censorship again - even the saw scene was initially meant to be included but dropped). So this Cantonese version never had those 9 scenes so it isn't really a cut

.

Thanks Bleeper

What do you mean 'bleeper'

?

I'll wait for a proper review. That's just a paragraph and only really tells us the basics (like confirmed audio selection). For example one sentence on the transfer tells us very, very little.

It may not say a lot, but it states enough to know the disc is still another half-arsed attempt (probably the 60th edition and it's still not right).

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 02 Oct 2006, 20:15

That didn't stop them from including trailers included for the 1st disc for instance

You can't compare a Trailer to a Commentary, even in that sense.

Take 'Decendants of Wing Chun', the trailer on the 'Vengeance Video' DVD was wrongly telecined and you can barely see it. It may have had some deleted scenes.

It's a TRAILER. I'll quickly get over it

. You say yourself you can see it so you'd know if it had deleted footage or not.

Indeed, the only thing to recommend compared to other version (aside from extras and cleaned-up subtitles)

That's a fair amount in my book in it's favour. How about the price difference too.

What do you mean 'bleeper'?

I'm sure I read Bleeper somewhere sorry.

So this Cantonese version never had those 9 scenes so it isn't really a cut.

Thanks for the explanation + no version exists anymore with the missing footage? So it's very much moot IMO.

It may not say a lot, but it states enough to know the disc is still another half-arsed attempt (probably the 60th edition and it's still not right).

Clearly I disagree but I do agree we'd have had a much better version a few months back. Even going by the spec. alone it's lacking for an all out PE.

Killer Meteor · Post by **Killer Meteor** » 03 Oct 2006, 11:43

It's a shoddy disc even without seeing it. Any DVD that does not include the original language and score when it is easy as pie to get those features is a no-no in my book. I've only heard a small segment of the original score but I want to hear it because it is the ORIGINAL. Ditto Fist of Legend, Ong Bak etc I first saw those films with their re-scores and while I liked and enjoyed the scores, the fact that the DVD was denying me the original angers me. It's like watching the cut King Kong back in the days where we couldn't see the really nasty stuff - OK, I wasn't alive back then - "you don't miss what you haven't seen/heard doesn't hold water with me. The Cantonese track of BB is OK apart from the awful medallion music and the badly dubbed cries - see the HK cut of GOD'78 to see it done better - but not to include Mandarin when they know we've been going on about it for 6 years is a total joke - which HKL are, as they laugh all the way to the bank

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 03 Oct 2006, 19:54

Any DVD that does not include the original language and score when it is easy as pie to get those features is a no-no in my book.

Normally I'd agree BUT I can only think of TWO DVDs of ALL the TBB DVDs released which fit that parameter:

Fox
MegaStar

Every other including the HK IVL have Cantonese. The IVL only has Mandarin DD5.1 but Cantonese Mono. The previous R1 only had Cantonese and so do a slew of other DVDs.

It's not right but equally not the same as comparing it against the likes of Ong-Bak. It's not a fair comparison.

p.s - Actually (on this forum anyway

) only Mark and Grim have been going on about it. Most others, and on other forums too seem happy with Cantonese. I've even read many a time people prefer it, as it's "what they're use" to.

chenlung · Post by **chenlung** » 03 Oct 2006, 20:55

Na, the previous R1 had English mono only 8) .

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 04 Oct 2006, 00:24

bradavon wrote:p.s - Actually (on this forum anyway ) only Mark and Grim have been going on about it. Most others, and on other forums too seem happy with Cantonese. I've even read many a time people prefer it, as it's "what they're use" to.

Ignorant fools. :shock:

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 04 Oct 2006, 18:15

Not so, ignorant means people don't know.

Killer Meteor · Post by **Killer Meteor** » 04 Oct 2006, 19:50

For Fist Of Fury and Way Of The Dragon, I do prefer the Cantonese versions for quality of voice acting, nostalgia and familiarity with those languages. But I'd insist on the Mandarin version being there too for the simple reason it's the original release language. With BB, the Mandarin track is even more important because it contains the original score and sound effects.

No doubt reviewers will be gushing over this release. HKL always seems to get favourable reviews at sites despite the numerous flaws on their releases that could have been avoided.

Killer Meteor · Post by **Killer Meteor** » 04 Oct 2006, 19:55

bradavon wrote:
Any DVD that does not include the original language and score when it is easy as pie to get those features is a no-no in my book.
Normally I'd agree BUT I can only think of TWO DVDs of ALL the TBB DVDs released which fit that parameter:

Fox
MegaStar

Every other including the HK IVL have Cantonese. The IVL only has Mandarin DD5.1 but Cantonese Mono. The previous R1 only had Cantonese and so do a slew of other DVDs

.

From memory, didn't the Megastar only have an new Mandarin version of the Cantonese track? The Fox/Fortune Star DVD is the only one with Mandarin mono unless I'm mistaken

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 04 Oct 2006, 20:27

There's little point wasting my breath sometimes... let people watch what they want... why should I care??

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 04 Oct 2006, 20:32

Calm down Mark, OK its not the intended language, I know it, you know it, but its not like anyones committing a crime

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 04 Oct 2006, 20:37

I know. It's just some people will argue black is white. You can't reason with them.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 04 Oct 2006, 20:40

Markgway wrote:There's little point wasting my breath sometimes... let people watch what they want... why should I care??

Good question. Why should you? You give your opinion, everyone else gives theirs. We don't always have to agree do we?

From memory, didn't the Megastar only have an new Mandarin version of the Cantonese track? The Fox/Fortune Star DVD is the only one with Mandarin mono unless I'm mistaken

No idea Mark bought it (I think). I was just commenting on the bias of the orignal comment.

No doubt reviewers will be gushing over this release. HKL always seems to get favourable reviews at sites despite the numerous flaws on their releases that could have been avoided.

Sometimes but remember most reviewers are uninformed of the hidden depth you need to go to know everthing about such a release.

It's not surprising most don't know Cantonese wasn't the original when it's been on virtually all releases to date (as the prominent track). I'd suspect the AV is compared against the competition which mostly sucks, of course with the likes of Fox it's different but judging a DVD on it's own right, the remastering HKL do (even if not perfect) their releases aren't shoddy say by the likes of MIA and Eastern Heroes.

You get what I mean, right?

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 04 Oct 2006, 20:45

I'm surprised that some reviewers even know the difference between Cantonese and Mandarin, as this is quite unusual for authors of the average DVD review magazine.

HungFist · Post by **HungFist** » 12 Mar 2007, 08:58

How was HKL PE cantonese mono? Since I've watched the film in cantonese before and the Fox madarin mono is out of sync I might prefer the HKL overall. If the mono is good that is.