Jackie Chan & Jet Li signed to star in the same Film.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 16 Nov 2007, 17:02

Oh yes that kid as the lead. What a great idea that was.

I think you're missing the point LD it's not that fact he's white or unknown that's important it's that they're made him the main part in a film that really doesn't need him. What people want is Jackie and/or Jet to be the leads. You honestly reckon this would be worse?

Viggo Mortensen was decent in A Perfect Murder.

All I know is that I'm gonna watch it and it looks like I will enjoy it.

Is that really enough? So many films are made that merely enjoyable but never bother to come close to greatness. I don't think it's to much to ask for film makers to actually make an effort.

For example Rush Hour 3 has elements that are fun and enjoyable but overall it's so, so sloppy. No one least of all Jackie is making any effort whatsoever, the first two Rush Hour films weren't outstanding but at least they were trying. All Rush Hour 3 and it's ilk have done is hurt Jackie's international reputation. I don't understand why he even bothered, it's not as if he needs the cash.

At least with Gorgeous (which mostly didn't work) Jackie was trying something new and different.

Ah well... maybe I might one day see it with my kids, but I think I rather let them watch Jackie's and Jet's better movies ...

Truth be told most Western kids would find Jackie and Jet's best work boring. I understand and agree with your point though.

My 21 year old brother likes both Jet and Jackie but I bet he'd find DM2 or OUATIC boring. He wouldn't "get them".

Shingster · Post by **Shingster** » 16 Nov 2007, 17:16

Going off topic here, but i'm stunned by LD's comment about Viggo Mortensen!

He was quite famous back in the early 90s when he was cropping up in supporting roles in films like Young Guns 2, Carlito's Way, The Prohecy, Boiling Point, and he starred in both American Yakuza (a big hit on VHS back in the day this), and The Indian Runner! Then throughout the 90s he turned up in a string of high profile (mostly supporting) roles: Crimston Tide, Daylight, G.I Jane, A Perfect Murder, A Walk on the Moon, Psycho etc.

He wasn't A-list, but he was most certainly a well known name by the time he was cast in LOTR, that's for sure!

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 16 Nov 2007, 17:19

The problem many have with this movie, is that you have 2 two great icons of asian cinema FINALLY together in a movie... and to be honest... I doubt this movie will do either of them justice.

A Jet and Jackie movie has HUGE potential when done right, when given the right material, story, script, director, co-actors, choreographer, etc.

It just seems that when you have these guys at your disposal for 6-12 months (?), you should make the best fucking movie possible! Grab that chance! Let both these actors SHINE in a fine movie!

It just seems like a wasted opportunity.

Yeah, it might be a fun little kids-movie...
And if the 16th chapel would have hired Michelangelo to just wash a few windows instead of painting the ceiling, I'm sure he would have done a proper job at that as well.

Shingster · Post by **Shingster** » 16 Nov 2007, 17:21

Yi-Long wrote:A Jet and Jackie movie has HUGE potential when done right, when given the right material, story, script, director, co-actors, choreographer, etc.

If you had said that 10yrs ago, i'd totally agree. These days? Meh I dunno! Jet's still got it, Jackie seems to be collecting the paycheques before he does the work these days.

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 16 Nov 2007, 17:31

bradavon wrote:it's not that fact he's white or unknown that's important it's that they're made him the main part in a film that really doesn't need him.

How can you say that this is a film that doesn't need him? You don't even know the storyline. Maybe the film you would love to see doesn't need him. But it's not gonna be the film you want to see. It is a film that has a young, American in it. I really don't get why this creates such tension. If they made a film that promised to show Jackie and Jet at the height of their careers joining forces in one huge martial arts action film, where the shooting of the final fight scene took half a year, then I'd be able to relate to your angriness about a young, American boy playing the lead role. Because then I'd also prefer to see more of Jackie and Jet interacting.

What people want is Jackie and/or Jet to be the leads. You honestly reckon this would be worse?

Far from it! I'd love to see them in the leading roles. But a script, that would do both of them justice has yet to be written. Wanna give it a shot? The JC Offices are always open to good movie scripts.
"The Forbidden Kingdom" is just another type of film.

Viggo Mortensen was decent in A Perfect Murder.

Well, I didn't know him before LotR. I might have seen him, but there was no way on earth that I could have memorise his name back then. You can't tell me that LotR didn't make him more famous than ever.

Is that really enough?

Well, what IS enough these days? It's not a secret that masterpieces aren't produced very often. Both, Jackie and Jet have produced more masterpieces in their 30's and 40's than other filmmakers in their whole life. I don't care if they make shitty movies for 10 - 20 further years. Of course I wish they were better, but I know that they had their prime and I just enjoy seeing the films they are doing after that.

I don't think it's to much to ask for film makers to actually make an effort.

Evidence that you have never worked on a film before. Everybody would be making movies if it was that easy to make a great film, which also appeals to the masses. A dead sure business without any risks.
Brad, trust me, it's not as easy as you might think. I have worked on film sets before where I thought that these films were gonna suck. Well, they did well at the box office. And then again, I have worked on some sets that were really exciting to work on and what happened. Some of them sucked balls in the end.

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 16 Nov 2007, 17:33

Shingster wrote:
Yi-Long wrote:A Jet and Jackie movie has HUGE potential when done right, when given the right material, story, script, director, co-actors, choreographer, etc.
If you had said that 10yrs ago, i'd totally agree. These days? Meh I dunno! Jet's still got it, Jackie seems to be collecting the paycheques before he does the work these days.

Ow...totally agree. I've been saying for years now that Jackie's a total waste nowadays.
Age isnt an excuse. I dont expect Jackie to flip around and do huge kicks. But he should at least choose proper projects and I'm sure he can still do good fightscenes (maybe using a style that's more focussed on punching and low kicks etc. Just kickboxing, basically).

Sammo is old AND fat, and he's still showing what he's got occasionally. Yuen Biao is doing nice stuff as well in TV series. Just think back to old Lau Ka-Leung in Pedicab Driver and such.

Jackie has been choosing money over quality ever since he went to Hollywood.

And Jet has been hit-and-miss. He's still got all the great skills and I think he's a very good actor as well (lots of charisma), but stuff like WAR, The One and Cradle to the Grave are just ridiculously BAD.

Hero and Fearless and Danny the Dog are very good though.

gasteropod · Post by **gasteropod** » 16 Nov 2007, 17:38

thelostdragon wrote:Also, who knew Shia LeBouf before "Transformers"? Because back then he was also just "some unknown white brat".

Me, seen him in a programme called Even Stevens for years.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 16 Nov 2007, 18:18

Shingster wrote:If you had said that 10yrs ago, i'd totally agree. These days? Meh I dunno! Jet's still got it, Jackie seems to be collecting the paycheques before he does the work these days.

I agree.

I actually think this could be "fun" but that wasn't my point.

You can't tell me that LotR didn't make him more famous than ever.

No one is saying that

Well, what IS enough these days? It's not a secret that masterpieces aren't produced very often.

I never said masterpiece. I said merely okay films where no one makes any effort. That's a big difference. Honestly I'd settle for Police Story 3 over The Tuxedo.

Both, Jackie and Jet have produced more masterpieces in their 30's and 40's than other filmmakers in their whole life.

What does that mean? Obviously but then other film makers have made even more decent films than both of them.

Jackie has never made a masterpiece, neither has Jet (who has made several excellent films). I'd say to be a masterpiece it has to be perfect. Is Fist of Legend 100% perfect? No. Is DM2 for those who love it 100% perfect? No.

I don't care if they make shitty movies for 10 - 20 further years. Of course I wish they were better, but I know that they had their prime and I just enjoy seeing the films they are doing after that.

Fair enough.

My interest is because Jet is in it not Jackie. I doubt I'd be interested period if it was a Jackie only film.

Evidence that you have never worked on a film before. Everybody would be making movies if it was that easy to make a great film, which also appeals to the masses. A dead sure business without any risks.

Fair point. I didn't mean no one makes any effort but can the effort really be that strong with tosh like Rush Hour 3, The Medallion, The Touch and the like? The Touch's script is awful, they must've known it but didn't care. They're not even getting the basics right before the film is even made.

How many films have you worked on btw? What role in the process do you play again?

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 16 Nov 2007, 18:38

I'd call Once Upon A Time In China close to a masterpiece, if not an actual masterpiece.
I wouldn't say I was moaning Shing, I said I liked the trailer

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 16 Nov 2007, 18:47

Yep, OUATIC is a masterpiece.

And as for Jackie, he has made many masterpieces for the genre. "Police Story" was a milestone in its genre and still works today very well as such.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 16 Nov 2007, 18:53

Agreed!

gasteropod · Post by **gasteropod** » 16 Nov 2007, 19:08

Miracles is probably the closest he's made to a masterpiece.

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 16 Nov 2007, 21:12

I'd say "Miracles" IS his masterpiece filmwise.

saltysam · Post by **saltysam** » 16 Nov 2007, 21:23

Miracles, Drunken Master 2 & Armour Of God are masterpieces. For Jet, Fist Of Legend & Once Upon A Time In China are. Fearless in it's director's cut isn't far off. Hero was overrated imo.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 16 Nov 2007, 23:53

OUATIC 1, 2 and 3 are brilliant but masterpiece? Are they in the same league as 2001: A Space Odyssey, The Godfather, Apocalypse Now, Taxi Driver, In the Mood for Love, Pan's Labyrinth, Lilya 4-ever? I think not.

The sheer epic scale in 2001 is truly staggering. Deep doesn't begin to explain the depth in 2001 and it's being compared to OUATIC? By default for the fact it's being called a masterpiece.

OUATIC for one has that very dodgy English guy, even without him it's far from a masterpiece. I know I'm nitpicking but you have to if you want to give a film "masterpiece" status. Fist of Legend a masterpiece? Are you kidding? Great martial arts but the story is just awful, there isn't one. It's just an excuse for lots of martial arts.

To me a masterpiece has to be absolutely flawless. No martial arts film I've ever seen has been flawless and as such cannot be a masterpiece. Martial Arts films don't need to be masterpieces and are very likely to ever be, the film makers behind them possibly aren't talented enough (maybe) and certainly don't strive high enough for that accolade.

Like I said many are absolutely fantastic but masterpiece? Not a chance.

Do you guys think Drunken Master 2 and Fist of Legend are flawless? There is absolutely nothing at all they should've done better? How about that god awful and ill thought out down syndrome section at the end of DM2? That hilarious, not!

thelostdragon wrote:"Police Story" was a milestone in its genre and still works today very well as such.

Agreed it was a milestone. It's far from a masterpiece though.

gasteropod · Post by **gasteropod** » 17 Nov 2007, 00:02

Pan's Labyrinth?!

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 17 Nov 2007, 01:40

Fist of Legend for me is pretty much flawless. The story is good, acting is good, fights are BRILLIANT, soundtrack is good. Yeah it COULD be better. ANY movie EVER COULD be better.

Fist of Legend, for me, is THE perfect martial arts movie. Drunken Master 2, for me, comes a very close 2nd.

BTW Brad... where is that uncut Dragon Dynasty DVD that I was skeptical about, and you said I had no reason to always be so negative!? Where is it?

I do agree btw that Once Upon a Time in China isnt a GREAT movie. I too feel it has a few too many flaws. One would be the terrible acting by the english actors, the other flaw would be that WFH is a pretty boring character.
It's still a very good movie though...

Once Upon a Time in China 2 is good, but not great. Biggest complaint about that flick is that Jet and Donnie only have fights together with weapons. I would have prefered an big unarmed Kung Fu fight.

gasteropod · Post by **gasteropod** » 17 Nov 2007, 01:51

The third one sucks.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 17 Nov 2007, 01:57

The term "masterpiece" gets banded about way to easily IMO. It doesn't mean the same as brilliant or outstanding. Of course this is all very subjective, my point only being for me anyway to be a "masterpiece" it has to be flawless and excel brilliance.

Hell even Romero has called Resident Evil and Starship Troopers masterpieces, o-kay!

Yi-Long wrote:Fist of Legend for me is pretty much flawless. The story is good, acting is good, fights are BRILLIANT, soundtrack is good. Yeah it COULD be better.

Okay you can call it masterpiece then

Yi-Long wrote:ANY movie EVER COULD be better.

Is your keyboard broken?

. I don't think any movie could be bettered. Some need absolutely nothing fixing.

Yi-Long wrote:BTW Brad... where is that uncut Dragon Dynasty DVD that I was skeptical about, and you said I had no reason to always be so negative!? Where is it?

Huh? And that came left from centre. How the fuck do I know, do I suddenly work for DD?

. We both know it's coming, as is the underrated Bodyguard from Beijing. Just be patient. I think you may love FOL a little too much

I've been waiting just as long for a decent Blade Runner DVD. Thankfully that's finally coming next month. At least these films have some kind of confirmed release and lets not forget Fist of Legend even has a decent release. Where is the Ashes of Time decent DVD? All of them are awful.

I'm not even bothered about FOL (it's not in the same league to any of the first 2 OUATIC films). It has good martial arts but is very overrated. Besides I've owned a French bootleg with English fan subs for years now. It looks ace.

Yi-Long wrote:I do agree btw that Once Upon a Time in China isnt a GREAT movie. I too feel it has a few too many flaws. One would be the terrible acting by the english actors, the other flaw would be that WFH is a pretty boring character.

Who're you agreeing with? Everyone else has said it's great. It's considerably better than FOL that's for sure. All the first 3 OUATIC films are.

I don't think the character of WFH is boring. The cinematography in OUTATIC1-3 is much better than FOL which looks like it was completely made on a ropey television studio set.

I was nitpicking about OUATIC to make my point about it not being a masterpiece. It is easily one of the best martial arts films ever made though. That said I happen to like OUATIC2 more.

Yi-Long wrote:Biggest complaint about that flick is that Jet and Donnie only have fights together with weapons. I would have prefered an big unarmed Kung Fu fight.

That is a pity but even so overall it's better than Part 1.

gasteropod wrote:The third one sucks.

I've never worked out why fans don't like it. I loved it when WFH and Aunt Yee finally got together. It has decent martial arts too. Sure Parts 1 and 2 are much better but it's still decent.

gasteropod · Post by **gasteropod** » 17 Nov 2007, 02:23

I found the third felt like it was done by a different director. It just felt really cheap and amateurish.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 17 Nov 2007, 09:50

IMO, for JC "Miracles", "Police Story" and "Drunken Master 2" are masterpieces in their genre. For Jet, "Once Upon A Time In China" is. "The Killer" is also a masterpiece.
All 3 OUATIC films with Jet are worth owning,

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 17 Nov 2007, 11:25

bradavon wrote:OUATIC 1, 2 and 3 are brilliant but masterpiece? Are they in the same league as 2001: A Space Odyssey, The Godfather, Apocalypse Now, Taxi Driver, In the Mood for Love, Pan's Labyrinth, Lilya 4-ever? I think not.

Hmmm, by your logic (that a masterpiece has to be flawless) I'm surprised that you would call any film a masterpiece actually. Do you really think "The Godfather" is flawless? Didn't you see how Sunny beat up his sister's husband in the streets. He barely touched him. Probably the worst acted fight scene in a highly praised film ever. And don't tell me that a fight scene isn't that important for such a film. You're caling it a masterpiece and by your logic a masterpiece has to be flawless. Well, I just gave you one of probably many flaws for a film you call a flawless masterpiece.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 17 Nov 2007, 11:53

FIGHT!

I concede that the joke at the end of DM II is in rather poor taste, but it's just showing what alcohol did to Jackie.
Pan's Labyrinth was superb, but a masterpiece? I don't know.

saltysam · Post by **saltysam** » 17 Nov 2007, 15:06

bradavon wrote:OUATIC 1, 2 and 3 are brilliant but masterpiece? Are they in the same league as 2001: A Space Odyssey, The Godfather, Apocalypse Now, Taxi Driver, In the Mood for Love, Pan's Labyrinth, Lilya 4-ever? I think not

2001 i've never seen.as for the others you name Apocalypse Now is nothing special (i don't even own it anymore) Taxi Driver is overrated,made famous purely for De Niro's "are you talkin' to me " shtick.Some say Godfather is the best film of the 70's,it's not even in the top 5,Jaws for example as a movie pisses over it from a great height.

romerojpg · Post by **romerojpg** » 17 Nov 2007, 15:52

2001 is shit, total bullshit, some nice music and a few good effects shots, but pure 100% shit. As is Godfather. In the Mood for Love is watchable, but far from great and Apocalypse Now is ok, turns into a wank fest by the end.

Obviously Bradavon loves what wanker critics love to praise. Talk about sheep.

2001 deep

classic! pure classic.