Needing advice... wiping my PC

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 22 Jun 2005, 15:11

Am getting a new PC and selling my current one. But obviously I want it wiped completely before passing it on. I mean as if it just came out of the factory box. Don't want any trace of work or private details to remain. I know you can get programs to restore supposedly deleted files. I want my PC to be beyond that because frankly I trust no one. If that's not possible should I remove my hard disc? Would that do it? Any comments welcome, thx.

EDIT: I should format my PC right? That puts everything beyond reach. How does one do that?

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 22 Jun 2005, 16:49

If you take the hard disk out and sell it without one:

A - You'll find it much harder to sell.
B - Yes you'll be 100% safe as the hard disk is the only thing that stores any data.
C - Taking it out is overreacting IMO, deleting a partition (mentioned below) is by far the most secure method of removing data it wipes the ENTIRE drive though. That is next to deleting the partition and then using some government stealth program which is very OTT, again IMO.

Are you going to sell it with an OS on?

Your new machine will have Windows XP (or is very likely to have it) so you should have a spare license for your current machine.

By far the easiest thing to do is when you're ready get your Windows ME CD, reboot your machine and it should boot from the CD into the Windows ME installation menu (this is assuming your CD is legit, if not it may still work).

Once in there one of the options will be to install Windows and it will say you already have an existing installation, it will then ask if you want to continue and overwrite the current installation or "delete the partition". Doing so will make it impossible for anyone to get to ANY DATA AT ALL on the hard disk.

Be sure you're ready though as once the partition has gone, it's gone. Only a serious hacker (who I doubt you know) will be able to bring it back. Formatting a machine is actually the second step of wiping a hard disk and if you just format it it's possible to unformat it.

If you delete the partition there will physically be no partition to restore from so you can't unformat it.

Once you've deleted the partition Windows installation will ask if you want to create a new one, do this (I generally do it and let Windows create one complete C drive instead of lots of silly partitioned drives but it's up to you). It will then format the drive and if you want start to install Windows ME.

Personally I'd:

* Delete the partition
* Create a new partition
* Format the drive
* Install Windows ME
* Make sure all the hardware drivers are installed
* Sell the PC

It's best to make sure you have all the drivers CDs before doing this as some drivers may not be part of Windows ME (it depends how old your graphics card is etc . . .). If you don't have a driver CD download the driver from the web and put it on CD, DVD, floppy disk.

As a test you could put your Windows ME CD in and reboot the machine. It should load a blue installation screen. You can always exit and reboot the machine once in there. At least you'll then know your CD and PC are compatible of booting from CDs.

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 22 Jun 2005, 18:12

Instead of deleting, you should format the HD... Deleting doesnt actually take the stuff of the HD, it just tells your PC that space is now available again to write OVER... so if you dont write anything OVER it, the data you left there when you 'deleted'it, will still be there...
Formatting the partition/drive/whatever, is supposedly better...

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 22 Jun 2005, 19:03

bradavon wrote:If you take the hard disk out and sell it without one - You'll find it much harder to sell. Yes you'll be 100% safe as the hard disk is the only thing that stores any data.

That's OK. As I'm selling it on the cheap anyways and will charge even less if there's no HD. Important thing is that the PC is squeaky clean. How much is a new HD by the way? I have a Fujitsu.

Taking it out is overreacting IMO, deleting a partition (mentioned below) is by far the most secure method of removing data it wipes the ENTIRE drive though. That is next to deleting the partition and then using some government stealth program which is very OTT, again IMO.

So if I "wipe the drive" why would I need to use a stealth program? I'm just thinking that some hacker could get access to the machine once it's out of sight. I want it to be useless for any hacker to get any data whatsoever. That may seem OTT. But remember I am paranoid. 8)

Are you going to sell it with an OS on?

Don't know. Is it better to reinstall the Operating System or just give the disc over and let them do it themselves?

Your new machine will have Windows XP (or is very likely to have it) so you should have a spare license for your current machine.

Yeah, the passcode is on the tower.

By far the easiest thing to do is when you're ready get your Windows ME CD, reboot your machine and it should boot from the CD into the Windows ME installation menu (this is assuming your CD is legit, if not it may still work).

Yeah, I've done that before. My PC has crashed several times.

Once in there one of the options will be to install Windows and it will say you already have an existing installation, it will then ask if you want to continue and overwrite the current installation or "delete the partition". Doing so will make it impossible for anyone to get to ANY DATA AT ALL on the hard disk.

Hmm... I don't mind selling the PC with the OS already re-installed as long as it's 100% clean. I need guarantees.

Be sure you're ready though as once the partition has gone, it's gone. Only a serious hacker (who I doubt you know) will be able to bring it back.

Yeah, but the person I'm selling it to might. That's what I'm saying.

Formatting a machine is actually the second step of wiping a hard disk and if you just format it it's possible to unformat it.

Sorry, man. I'm getting mixed messages here. Does formatting and reinstalling an OS make the PC untouchable or not? You seem to be saying yes and no?

If you delete the partition there will physically be no partition to restore from so you can't unformat it. Once you've deleted the partition Windows installation will ask if you want to create a new one, do this (I generally do it and let Windows create one complete C drive instead of lots of silly partitioned drives but it's up to you). It will then format the drive and if you want start to install Windows ME.

OK. So doing all that should in theory make the PC safe as houses, right? If you're not sure please say so.

romerojpg · Post by **romerojpg** » 22 Jun 2005, 19:53

Format it then save loads of BIG dvd files over and over again on it, and it writes over it all so no trace.

it may take a few hours to do it, but writing over the top of it all is one of the best ways from what I have read.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 22 Jun 2005, 21:51

Romero you're right but pointless if you delete the partition as there will be no partition to try and restore. All the effort to wipe over data it's much easier and actually more secure to just delete/recreate the partition and then format it.

How much is a new HD by the way?

Check out this link Mark for hard disk prices, they're probably the cheapest UK place on the web (most companies can't sell their hardware this cheap):

http://www.ebuyer.com/customer/home/

It's hard to post a direct link as it changes per your cookie session but basically click on "Components" at the top and then "hard drives" on the left. They look to start at £30 for a small 40Gb drive. Windows ME + free space will fit on that.

They sell 80Gb hard disk for £4 more so the 40Gb hard disks are pointless. Type this code into the search box for a fine cheap hard disk: 40968.

As long as it's IDE (instead of the newer SATA) then it will be compatible with your existing pc, all IDE hard disks are backwards compatible. SATA is a completely different connection which your PC won't have.

EDIT - How old is your PC? What CPU does it have? (Pentium 3, Pentium 4, Athalon). As there is a small chance with an old PC it won't recognise these new hard disks.

So if I "wipe the drive" why would I need to use a stealth program?

You wouldn't.

But if you wanted to be 110% sure (i.e - paranoid and pedantic) then you could run one also but like I said it's really a pointless exercise as very, very, very few people could get data back from a partition that has been deleted.

I couldn't and I've been fixing, using, supporting PCs for 12 years. I'm talking about the seriously clever person + I doubt they could bring it all back. More likely chunks of data.

I'm merely mentioning it to give you ALL the options but I wouldn't bother. Delete the partition and feel safe your data is GONE.

I want it to be useless for any hacker to get any data whatsoever.

Then take it out and smash the hard disk up. It's the only completely full proof method but really you're worrying about nothing.

Is it better to reinstall the Operating System or just give the disc over and let them do it themselves?

I'd say re-install it because:

A - It's always good experience
B - It will make it more sellable
C - Once you've deleted the partition you may as well spend 30 more minutes putting the OS back on
D - I'd want to see it working before I bought a second hand pc

Yeah, I've done that before. My PC has crashed several times.

So you've reinstalled Windows? Well you're laughing go for it.

Yeah, but the person I'm selling it to might. That's what I'm saying.

I very much doubt it.

It's one thing to unformat a hard disk but it's another entirely to bring back a deleted partition from the dead. I've never seen any software that can do this (although it must exist).

The fantastic Norton Utilities can't. It can unformat drives but not restore deleted partitions. It's a serious step + when you create a new partition (the drive isn't formatted yet, you're just getting ready) you will have created it over the deleted partition anyway.

Sorry, man. I'm getting mixed messages here. Does formatting and reinstalling an OS make the PC untouchable or not? You seem to be saying yes and no?

JUST formatting it without deleting the partition first will not make it completely safe (it's not to hard to unformat a drive) but deleting the partition, creating a new one and then formatting the new partition is safe.

Well taking into account the hacker threat I mention earlier. The important point here is you're deleting the partition. The foundation if you will.

The foundations of a wall if you will. The wall isn't going to stay up without it's foundations. When I sold my old PC I did this (deleted the partition and then reinstalled an old copy of Windows 95 I had) and am still very confident it was fine.

Getting a hard disk ready to put any data on even the most basic OS system file is a two part process:

1. Create the partition. This just says how big the drive is and gets it ready (it takes about 1-2 seconds to create a partition).
2. Format the drive. Takes much longer as it has to go through each cluster on the drive and format it so data can go on to it.

JUST formatting a drive is basically a more secure SELECT ALL and DELETE function. That's all it really does.

Without it getting confusing the partition part is generic to whether you put Windows 3.1, Windows 95, Windows NT, Windows ME, Windows XP, Linux and I suspect Apple Macs.

The formatting part formats it for a suitable file system for the version of Windows you're going to run. I don't want to get into more detail as it's not relevant and quickly gets confusing.

OK. So doing all that should in theory make the PC safe as houses, right? If you're not sure please say so.

As can be expected. Anymore then you'll have to smash the hard disk up and IMO even taking into account I 100% understand where you're coming from is overreacting.

Still you could smash it up, buy a new IDE hard disk, put that in and say here we are. Here's the Windows ME disc you go and install it.

Anyway like I said if you're that worried smash the hard disk up and sell the rest sans hard disk.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 23 Jun 2005, 07:48

Thanks for the detailed response, Brad.

Plenty food for thought.

I never realised an HD would be so cheap. 30-40 for something that could run ME is acceptable. After some discussion I think that's what I'll probably do. See I share the PC so it's not my decision alone.

Can you tell me how (the best way) to remove the Hard Disk? THAT I've not done before.

I'd really appreciate some details such as location and what the HD should look like etc...

As I said I'm selling VERY cheap so the recipient can worry about installing a new HD and all that shit. For the money I'm taking it's not worth the hastle thinking about. I give over the raw materials (bar HD) and that's it. I'm done with this thing once the HD is snapped in two.

Help very much appreciated...

Mordib · Post by **Mordib** » 23 Jun 2005, 08:06

Ooh, interesting thread

interesting fact before I get into the thick of it, if your operating system came installed with the machine then the license is none transferrable (legally) to another machine. strange but true, something to do with it being a different license than if you had bought the software seperately. To clarify this point, if your computer came with a windows disk (NOT a manufacturers recovery disk with windows on) then its fine to install and use on a different machine, otherwise its not.

anyway, on with the show. there are numerous programs available on the net (download.com has plenty) which will render your deleted data unreadable. Paranoid geeks will tell you it is best to use three such programs one after another. this is valid in as much as there is software out there that can recover a scary amount of past data, even if you think it has been written over, formatted, repartitioned.

I'm not sure whether the uk police have an equivelant but various US law enforcement agencies have seriously powerful software to do this. I was lucky enough to see such a piece of software demonstrated on one of my old harddrives around about 3 years ago, it picked up bits of files I had deleted around a year and a half and a couple of complete formats earlier. I'm just glad that the only porn I like is perfectly legal porn....

Take the harddrive out and destroying it is a great solution in my view. theyre so cheap these days as Brad's link shows that they really dont effect the price of the machine. But you have to make sure you really do destroy it. smashing it isnt enough. data recovery proffessionals have very expensive kit that allows them to take what is inside a harddrive and recover stuff off it even if its in very bad shape. its actually quite a lucrative industry.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 23 Jun 2005, 11:23

Mordib wrote:interesting fact before I get into the thick of it, if your operating system came installed with the machine then the license is none transferrable (legally) to another machine.

FYI: My ME OS came WITH the machine. I guess destroying the HD destroys the inbuilt OS. But I have a recovery ME disc and if that doesn't work I have a "copy" of XE with spare usercode. Obviously I won't need that with my new PC.

anyway, on with the show. there are numerous programs available on the net (download.com has plenty) which will render your deleted data unreadable. Paranoid geeks will tell you it is best to use three such programs one after another. this is valid in as much as there is software out there that can recover a scary amount of past data, even if you think it has been written over, formatted, repartitioned.

That's kinda what I'm getting at... all it takes is for some hacker to start using fancy programs to dig deep and you never know what details may be recovered. With ID fraud the way it is now I don't want to take any chances.

I'm not sure whether the uk police have an equivelant but various US law enforcement agencies have seriously powerful software to do this.

I'm sure versions of these programs are available for the general public to buy.

I'm just glad that the only porn I like is perfectly legal porn....

Yeah, would've been bad news if Goat-fucking Lolitas came up!

Take the harddrive out and destroying it is a great solution in my view... But you have to make sure you really do destroy it. smashing it isnt enough. data recovery proffessionals have very expensive kit that allows them to take what is inside a harddrive and recover stuff off it even if its in very bad shape. its actually quite a lucrative industry.

How do you REALLY destroy the motherfucker??

gojensen · Post by **gojensen** » 23 Jun 2005, 12:10

Okay.

If you delete the partition - Almost anyone can recover the data. (This is really stupid actually as deleting the partition only deletes the master - not the backup tables which can be recovered in 2 minutes...)

If you delete it, reformat, and write data ON TOP of it - I (and most of you really) can recover parts of the data (unless you overwrite 100% of it multiple times).

If you delete it, reformat, and write data ON TOP of it - professionals can recover most of the data.

You want to be 100% certain - don't sell the drive! Destroy it and keep the remains! (Professionals can restore data from burnt drives! The same professionals can also destroy the drive making it 100% unrecoverable for truly sensitive data!)

These "wipetools" on the net are simply not good enough to make it 100% safe. (And running 3 of them is no better really). But then again you have to consider how sensitive your data is - and what the likelyhood of someone going to all that trouble to retrieve the data.

Mordib · Post by **Mordib** » 23 Jun 2005, 12:20

well, proffessionals 'shred' them using big waste disposal units, but im guessing you wont have access to one of those

if you have a clamp anywhere you could simply crush it and then burn the pieces, you just be left with lumps of worthless metal and toxic fumes from the plastic.

not that i am endorsing any of their ideas, but this discussion is all about the subject and is most entertaining...

m.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 23 Jun 2005, 12:47

Huh? Why do i get the feeling of Deja vu like I've read some posts before?
Some posts are still marked as unread even though I've read them already?

Sorry for going OT

Mordib · Post by **Mordib** » 23 Jun 2005, 12:54

deny everything...

by the way, additional warning if you are going to take the harddrive apart, if your going to smash the reflective disks that make up the drive wear glove, that stuff can cut skin in dust form.... see i support safety and destruction!!

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 23 Jun 2005, 13:41

"It's possible to recover data from hard discs that have :

Been burned in a fire - I've heard of drives being recovered from an inferno that reached 1700 degrees Fahrenheit

Been sunken at the bottom of a river or lake for two+ days

Been crushed beyond recognition..."

Ha-Ha!! I don't think anyone wants my shit THAT much do they???

I think taking the HD out, smashing it a bit and throwing it in the trash should suffice. I'm not the Prime Minister so my files aren't relating to national security. Bank and work details aren't worth that hastle for any hacker.

Mordib · Post by **Mordib** » 23 Jun 2005, 14:49

well look, quick smashing soltion, take the screws out, smash the shiny discs bit. deposit remains in different bin bags (bury some too!

) . sorted. enjoy the paranoia !

plus i will personally gaurentee this solution to the value of a footlong subway sub... can't say fairer than that! :mrgreen:

IronMonkey · Post by **IronMonkey** » 23 Jun 2005, 15:38

Mordib wrote:plus i will personally gaurentee this solution to the value of a footlong subway sub... can't say fairer than that! :mrgreen:

Thats quite a big guarantee - foot long Subway sandwiches are damn expensive!

For ordinary use, most people don't have a clue how to get information back from a formatted hard drive, so don't worry yourself about it.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 23 Jun 2005, 18:42

Markgway wrote:Can you tell me how (the best way) to remove the Hard Disk? THAT I've not done before. I'd really appreciate some details such as location and what the HD should look like etc...

It's not difficult:

1. Open the case
2. Locate the hard disk. It will probably be silver or black, be 3.5" width by roughly 6" length and have two cables coming out of it.

The red, white and black cable is the power one and the larger grey ribbon cable is the data cable.

3. Pull the cables out.
4. Unscrew the hard disk.

Check out this simple guide: http://www.dataleach.com/support/removing-harddrive.php

Markgway wrote:Help very much appreciated...

No worries. I do it for a living (1st and 2nd line).

Mordib wrote:interesting fact before I get into the thick of it, if your operating system came installed with the machine then the license is none transferrable (legally) to another machine. strange but true, something to do with it being a different license than if you had bought the software seperately.

That's what Microsoft claim but I don't buy it. MS have so much money they can say what they like as probably they could get away with it but if you took them to court you have a good case.

You have a legal CD. Having said that if it's an OEM CD instead of a retail CD (Mordib's clarification point) then it may not work fully on another machine as OEM CDs can be customised BUT most of the time they're the same but much cheaper (no box or manual).

I run an OEM OS bought from Ebuyer. I wouldn't touch retail Windows it's far to expensive.

Mordib wrote:I'm not sure whether the uk police have an equivelant but various US law enforcement agencies have seriously powerful software to do this.

They sure do. I work for the police force.

But you're not going to sell it to a police officer + he/she would have to work in the relevant department anyway.

Mordib wrote:smashing it isnt enough. data recovery proffessionals have very expensive kit that allows them to take what is inside a harddrive and recover stuff off it even if its in very bad shape. its actually quite a lucrative industry.

I meant smashing it into bits.

I seriously can't see how anyone can bring data back when it's in pieces instead of just cracked.

Markgway wrote:That's kinda what I'm getting at... all it takes is for some hacker to start using fancy programs to dig deep and you never know what details may be recovered. With ID fraud the way it is now I don't want to take any chances.

Seriously Mark you're worrying about nothing and (no offence) overreacting.

90% of the population at a guess wouldn't have a clue how to even start to unformat a drive let alone bring a partition back from the dead.

Why waste a perfectly good hard drive? I doubt your data even interests most people. What do you really store?

He or she would have to be seriously interested in your letter to your gran to go to the trouble we're talking about.

I'm sure versions of these programs are available for the general public to buy.

They are but the off the shelf software doesn't come close to what pros can do. Besides I imagine "you" would use free software which is even less secure.

gojensen wrote:If you delete the partition - Almost anyone can recover the data. (This is really stupid actually as deleting the partition only deletes the master - not the backup tables which can be recovered in 2 minutes...)

No offence but I doubt your Mum could. Almost anyone is grossly over the top.

gojensen wrote:If you delete it, reformat, and write data ON TOP of it - I (and most of you really) can recover parts of the data (unless you overwrite 100% of it multiple times).

If you delete it, reformat, and write data ON TOP of it - professionals can recover most of the data.

I'm confused you've repeated yourself?

romerojpg · Post by **romerojpg** » 23 Jun 2005, 21:55

You have too much time on your hands

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 23 Jun 2005, 23:02

aka - Mr. Nice Guy

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 24 Jun 2005, 01:13

bradavon wrote:Seriously Mark you're worrying about nothing and (no offence) overreacting.

That's what all those who are out to get me say... I know that they're watching and listening... I know you're out there..... :shock:

Why waste a perfectly good hard drive? I doubt your data even interests most people. What do you really store?

OK, it's Paris Hilton's Goat Porn Uncut. I confess.

Thanks for the disabling HD mini-guide.