Just bought a noisy 360 Elite: Legally, where do I stand?

IronMonkey · Post by **IronMonkey** » 06 Nov 2007, 12:14

Yeah, I've stated a few times in the letter that I feel I've been sold faulty goods & that I want a refund. I haven't sent the letter yet but when I do I will send it via Recorded Delivery so that I know when they have received it.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 06 Nov 2007, 13:37

Good idea. It's only 70p more and online you can even see the date/time it was signed for.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 06 Nov 2007, 17:23

Six pages??

No one will read it.

You should be able to make all your relevant points in one page (two at the most).

No desk jockey wants to read War & Peace.

degeneration · Post by **degeneration** » 06 Nov 2007, 18:25

Markgway wrote:Six pages??

No one will read it.

You should be able to make all your relevant points in one page (two at the most).

No desk jockey wants to read War & Peace.

Gotta agree with this. I think it is highly likely a 6 page letter will NOT be read properly, if at all, and as such the strength of your letter will be completely lost.

I don't think you have to give a complete recount of what has happened, but summarise it to the key points.

To the point will have far more power than trying to tell a story, I believe anyway.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 06 Nov 2007, 18:33

Mark does kind of have a point, if it's 6 pages you "may" risk it being ignored. I'm not saying it's a bad thing to be 6 pages (as it may have the opposite effect where they take note quicker) but could go the wrong way for you.

1-2 pages is possibly ideal. Are you waffling at all or repeating yourself? I possibly should've mentioned it before.

To the point will have far more power than trying to tell a story, I believe anyway.

Agreed.

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 06 Nov 2007, 18:50

All I know is that Ryu Hayabusa wouldnt settle his problems with a letter!

Iron Monkey: LESSER NINJA! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

IronMonkey · Post by **IronMonkey** » 06 Nov 2007, 20:43

Er... Yi-Long... I'm a Master Ninja thankyaverymuchly!

Yeah, I'm starting to agree with you all. I think the first bit is fine at getting my point across but by the end I have waffled on quite a bit... Maybe because I was on a rant & it was midnight so I was tired & angry.

I'll condense it tomorrow & send it off...

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 06 Nov 2007, 22:37

Good man. Keep it to 2 pages maximum, don't waffle or repeat yourself and keep it to the point!

IronMonkey · Post by **IronMonkey** » 06 Nov 2007, 23:18

Well, I've so far managed to get it down to 2.5 pages, which I think should probably be ok. Remember, if I print on both sides of the first sheet then it'll only actually be 2 pieces of paper.

I've cut out as much as is possible I think. I have included a few quotes from Trading Standards & the Sale Of Goods Act which take up quite a bit of room, but I still need to get my point across.

I may adjust the page borders in order to fit more words in - then it may all fit on 2 pages instead of 3.

Anyway, I'll see how this replacement console goes tomorrow - its my day off work so I can spend a bit of time with it & see if it overheats or not. Then I will send my letter tomorrow afternoon, recorded 1st class, so it should get there by Thursday morning or Friday at the latest.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 07 Nov 2007, 00:13

I would try and get it to 2 pages but 2.5 is okay. Are you wasting space with the address section at the start?

Obviously you need that but can it be condensed? What size font are you using? I'd set it to 11, any larger is overkill (considering your space issues) and any smaller may be hard to read. Can you maybe reduce the margins?

I may adjust the page borders in order to fit more words in - then it may all fit on 2 pages instead of 3.

If you can it would really help. Obviously don't reduce them to something silly like 0.5 inches, that will look stupid. If it doesn't fit it doesn't fit.

I have included a few quotes from Trading Standards & the Sale Of Goods Act which take up quite a bit of room, but I still need to get my point across.

Oh definitely. You don't want to cut out crucial stuff, include the photos too.

If the replacement doesn't overheat, obviously don't say that.

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 07 Nov 2007, 00:33

Even font size 11 is quite big. 10 is about right, and you could possibly make the space between the lines (english word?) a bit smaller.

Ah well... dont sweat it. It's just 2,5 pages, so that's small stuff
I wrote 10 pages of complaints to my school when I got failed on the last group-project because of all the printers in the school (2 colorprinters) being broke when we needed to print out our assignment.

Didnt work though. Had to come back 2-3 extra months and make an extra assignment. Bastard school

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 07 Nov 2007, 00:37

Yi-Long wrote:Even font size 11 is quite big. 10 is about right

Agreed for an e-mail but when printed 10 is small. I'd even say 10.5 (you an use .5 points too) is too small. Certainly never ever go below 10 if you're printing it.

Yi-Long wrote:and you could possibly make the space between the lines (english word?) a bit smaller.

There isn't really an exact word in English but what you mean is "single line spacing" or "double line spacing", those are what Word calls them so they'll do for me. "Single line spacing" being the default. This isn't easily done in Microsoft Word, the default gap is the one to use, any less the words would mash together.

Change the font/margins and that's it. Actually Word does have a neat "Shrink to fit" button found when you "Print Preview" on the toolbar. Give that a go too. Annoyingly it only reduces the font size though and doesn't also reduce the margins but has always struck me as dumb.

EvaUnit02 · Post by **EvaUnit02** » 07 Nov 2007, 03:22

IronMonkey wrote: Anyway, I'll see how this replacement console goes tomorrow - its my day off work so I can spend a bit of time with it & see if it overheats or not.

What's the manufacture date? Anything Elite from June 07 onwards should have the new heatsinks.

IronMonkey · Post by **IronMonkey** » 07 Nov 2007, 15:46

OK here's my letter:

Dear Sir,

I am writing to you to make a formal complaint about your new Ripon store. On Tuesday 30th October I visited Blockbuster [EDITED] & purchased an Xbox 360 Elite games console & some games.

At the same time, a friend of mine purchased an Xbox 360 Elite from the same store. We were told at the time of purchase that if we had any problems with the machines within the first 28 days we could take them back. Upon opening & powering on our consoles, we found that mine had considerably louder fans which were distracting & detracted from the gaming experience. It sounded like a jet engine in my TV room at home.

We are both AV Technicians & we both have a lot of experience installing & configuring all sorts of electrical equipment, from TVs to DVDs, fridges & washing machines, to computers & games consoles. We both noted that the fans in my Xbox 360 Elite console were a lot louder than those in his machine, & it sounded like the ball bearings in the fan were grinding – i.e. malfunctioning. I was sold a faulty machine of lesser quality than should be reasonably expected.

We did some research on the Internet & it appears a lot of people have been having problems with grinding fans & many have been returning the console because of excessive noise.

I took the faulty machine back to Blockbuster in [EDITED] on Thursday 1st November & at first the staff were happy to exchange the console, once I had explained that I had read that this was a known problem. Since they had no more Xbox 360 Elites in stock, they decided to telephone other branches to find out if they had any which could be brought over to the Ripon branch.

I left my console with the [EDITED] shop & went to get my lunch, & ten minutes later came back to the store. The attitude of your staff had completely changed when I returned. They had opened the box & plugged my Xbox 360 Elite in & had it turned on.

Two of the staff members said their own consoles sounded exactly the same & that my machine was “silent”. The “assistant manager” even said that all fans make a noise & pointed to a large desk fan. This was very patronising & I did not take kindly to it. I am well aware that fans make noise, but unlike him I am also well aware that there is a big difference between the noise a fan makes when it is shifting air as it should, & the noise it makes when the ball bearings sound like they are about to fail. They said they were not going to exchange the console & that I would have to speak to Microsoft about it. This in itself completely contradicts the Sale Of Goods Act, which quite clearly states:

“It is the seller, not the manufacturer, who is responsible if goods do not conform to contract.”

I was not happy with this response & asked for my money back because I felt I had been treated with complete contempt & no respect for my opinion that this machine was faulty. The “assistant manager” flat-out refused to give me a refund & his exact words were:

“That is something we absolutely cannot do.”

Since when do my rights as a consumer not come into play with Blockbuster? The Sale Of Goods Act quite clearly states I am legally entitled to request a refund. For the “assistant manager” to refuse this is to deny me my rights as a consumer, & I’m sure Trading Standards, Watchdog, etc, would love to hear about it.

“Wherever goods are bought they must "conform to contract". This means they must be as described, fit for purpose and of satisfactory quality (i.e. not inherently faulty at the time of sale).
• If goods do not conform to contract at the time of sale, purchasers can request their money back "within a reasonable time". (This is not defined and will depend on circumstances).

My complaint about the console was within two days of purchase – easily “within a reasonable time”. I phoned Microsoft & explained the situation. The gentleman I spoke to was very helpful & asked me to hold the phone to the back of the Xbox 360 Elite so that he could listen to the fans. He said it sounded loud to him, but asked if I could remove the disc from the tray (as a spinning disc also makes noise from the Xbox 360 Elite – this is normal) so that he could hear “just the fans”.

I explained that I did not even have a disc in the drive & that he was, in fact, listening to just the fans. He said there was obviously something not right with it & to take it back to Blockbuster, as for the first 28 days it is completely the retailer’s responsibility.

Since then, I had been very busy at work so I did not get the chance to return to the store to voice my concern. On the night of Saturday 3rd November, I played on a few games for a couple of hours & the fans were still grinding & sounded awful. I had to turn the sound up very loud on my TV to drown out the excessive noise.

After approximately 2 hours, the system switched itself off & the ring of light on the front of the machine started flashing red in 2 of its quadrants. The machine was very hot. The Xbox 360 Elite’s ring of light is split into four quadrants, each of which glow solid green when the system is operating correctly & controllers are connected. I had a look at the troubleshooting section of the Xbox 360 Elite manual & found this:

“Two left lights on console flash red: The console is too hot and will not play games until cooled down. Place the console in a well-ventilated area away from other heat sources. Once the console cools, the flashing will stop and the Xbox 360 console can be played.”

The console was placed on top of a wooden cabinet with plenty of space around it for air to escape. There were no obstructions to the ventilation holes on the console, so the obvious reason for the overheating was that the fans were not shifting enough hot air away from the machine.

2 PHOTOGRAPHS

I left the console to cool down overnight & when I woke up on Sunday (4th November) morning the red lights were still flashing! So a console that has been used for 2 hours needs over 10 hours to cool down? That’s ridiculous.

I took the console back to the [EDITED] branch for the second time & was told by two female staff members (they both had “sales assistant” badges on) that they didn’t know how to process a refund & I’d have to speak to the manager.

On Monday 5th November I took the console back to the store for the third time for a refund. The “manager” was rude to me. She said to her colleague (whom I had purchased the console from) “Is this the lad who said it sounded like a jet engine?” to which the assistant replied “Yes”. The very next thing the manager said was, “Right, well he is only entitled to an exchange.”

Excuse me?! How am I any different to any other customer? Why am I being singled out as only entitled to an exchange?! What about my rights as a consumer? This is ridiculous & I was very frustrated by her attitude towards me. Since she refused me a refund, I begrudgingly was forced to take a replacement, but she wouldn’t even check the system for me before I left the shop!

What sort of policy is this? I am a paying customer, I made a simple request that the item be checked before I took it away with me & I got that as a response! That is disgraceful! I was not offered a refund of my original console before replacement. This is against the Sale Of Goods Act:

• If consumers discover that products do not meet these requirements they can reject them and ask for their money back providing they do so quickly. Alternatively, they can request a repair or replacement or claim compensation."

The replacement console sounds awful when in use – just like the first did. As far as I am concerned, this replacement console is also faulty & not fit for use.

I demand Head Office rectify this problem. I have played by Blockbuster’s rules so far, & it has got me nowhere in getting this situation resolved. I am not prepared to go through any more hassle. I would like you to send me a letter-headed, signed letter stating that I am entitled to a full refund by law, so that I can take it to the store with me & have no further hassles in getting a refund.

I will be sending this letter via Recorded Delivery so I will know when you have received it – I would very much appreciate a reply so that I know my concerns haven’t gone unheard.

Thank you for your time.

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 07 Nov 2007, 17:34

Very good letter, Iron Monkey. I'm upgrading your ninja-status from 'lesser-ninja' to 'master ninja' (noneedtothankmeverymuch)

Just one thing: "I am not prepared to go through any more hassle."
maybe you should add, '...but I definately will if I have to!'

Good stuff. Reads away perfectly, it's very clear as to what happened and how you feel about that. I cant see how they can still deny you a refund.

Good luck, man!

IronMonkey · Post by **IronMonkey** » 07 Nov 2007, 18:16

Thanks, Yi-Long. What are your Ninja Gaiden Black karma scores by the way?

Thanks for the pointer on that last paragraph, I've amended it on the letter. Yeah, I hope this works in getting me a refund, although I have a feeling they'll say if the replacement system hasn't overheated there's nothing wrong with it, but still, a Microsoft employee said the first system didn't sound right & this one sounds exactly the same, so if they want to have a barny about it they can speak to Microsoft directly.

The letter is just under 2.5 pages including my address, telephone & e-mail details & space at the end for my signature.

I think it will be fine. Afterall, if I print both sides of the 1st sheet, its only physically 2 pieces of paper...

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 07 Nov 2007, 18:21

IronMonkey wrote:Thanks, Yi-Long. What are your Ninja Gaiden Black karma scores by the way?

Thanks for the pointer on that last paragraph, I've amended it on the letter. Yeah, I hope this works in getting me a refund, although I have a feeling they'll say if the replacement system hasn't overheated there's nothing wrong with it, but still, a Microsoft employee said the first system didn't sound right & this one sounds exactly the same, so if they want to have a barny about it they can speak to Microsoft directly.

The letter is just under 2.5 pages including my address, telephone & e-mail details & space at the end for my signature.

I think it will be fine. Afterall, if I print both sides of the 1st sheet, its only physically 2 pieces of paper...

I wouldnt print on 2 sides, but that's just me. In Holland it's pretty uncommon to receive letters that are double printed.

My Karma score? I have no idea man. I just played through NGB on normal, and after that, although LOVING the game, I didnt really play it anymore. I tried Hard for a little while, but didnt stick with it. Only reached the last room before the 1st boss, I believe.

Great game, but I guess I'm not hardcore enough to really master it on the higher difficulties

IronMonkey · Post by **IronMonkey** » 07 Nov 2007, 18:26

Heh, & YOU called ME a Lesser Ninja?!

Stick with it mate, its so rewarding when you finally beat Master Ninja mode! I can't wait for Ninja Gaiden 2 (if I ever get a properly functioning XBox 360!).

Well, as for the printing thing, I think its best to do it like that - saves paper!

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 07 Nov 2007, 18:36

IronMonkey wrote:Heh, & YOU called ME a Lesser Ninja?!

Stick with it mate, its so rewarding when you finally beat Master Ninja mode! I can't wait for Ninja Gaiden 2 (if I ever get a properly functioning XBox 360!).

Well, as for the printing thing, I think its best to do it like that - saves paper!

I was just calling you a 'lesser ninja' because your way of solving problems wouldnt score you any karma-points

Ryu wouldnt write a fucking letter, he'd walljump and behead those bastards!

I might pick Ninja Gaiden up again. I'm mostly playing Pro Evo 5 still, plus lately I've been playing Oddworld a bit, which is quite fun.

When you do print both sides, at least make sure you use proper paper (90 grams or above), so it wont look like a mess. Cause with thin paper you will have the text on one side shining through a bit on the other side.
For me, that's always been one of my main dislikes of double-printing. Plus when you have 2,5 sides, you will end up with 1 completely full paper on both sides, and then another paper with just a small portion of 1 side being used. That will also look like shit.

So for me, I would just go with 3 papers

But hey, it's your decision

degeneration · Post by **degeneration** » 07 Nov 2007, 19:04

Hey, if you haven't sent the letter yet I've got some constructive criticism for you to take on board and use if desired.

The paragraph "Since then, I had been very busy at work so I did not get the chance to return to the store to voice my concern. On the night of Saturday 3rd November, I played on a few games for a couple of hours & the fans were still grinding & sounded awful. I had to turn the sound up very loud on my TV to drown out the excessive noise."

I don't think this is needed. You do not have to explain to them what you do with your time, be it work or otherwise. You are still well within the reasonable time that you stress throughout the letter. Also, around this stage of the letter I feel it is getting too "story teling" as opposed to complaint letter with facts. Personally I would remove teh whole paragraph and just amend the start of the next paragraph with something like

"I chose to use the console for a short time to be sure about my claims and, as I suspected, after approximately 2 hours..." or something like that.

The 2 short paragraphs detailing the phone conversation with microsoft, the 2nd one is short enough that it could be combined with the first of the paragraphs. The break in the paragraphs is in the middle of the key point you are making, so would be better, I think, if they followed on and flowed more. It will also save a line or 2 in space.

When you talk about the console taking 10 hours to cool down, the "That's ridiculous!" is making the letter too colloquial. Instead I would use this to reaffirm your point in a more formal manner - "This is a clear sign of a faulty product." or something like that.

Likewise with the "Excuse me?!" This is making it too colloquial. I would remove it completely as your next sentence stresses your point well enough. A formal complaint letter should not be colloquial and definitely should not have grammar like "?!" in it. Remove all instances of ?! and the like.

Remove your "I'm not prepared to go though any hassle" line. If you get an unsympathetic person reading this letter, that basically says to them "If I don't get my way, I'm going to give up". If anything you should be making it seem that you are willing to go as far as it takes to get this sorted. It is a bit early to threaten legal action, wait until they reply before you use that card, but do not under any circumstances make them think you are going to back down.

Hope my input helps!

IronMonkey · Post by **IronMonkey** » 07 Nov 2007, 23:47

Wow, thanks degeneration! Those are some great pointers! I've made the amendments you suggested. I'm pretty sure its ready to be sent now. It is literally just over 2 pages long - there are 3 paragraphs on the 3rd page but I really can't cut any more out than I already have.

I'm sure it will be ok. I just hope they respond!

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 07 Nov 2007, 23:57

Never print double-sided.

Use three pages if needed.

IronMonkey · Post by **IronMonkey** » 08 Nov 2007, 00:13

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 08 Nov 2007, 00:19

What. The. Fuck. ?

I tell you you shouldnt print double-sided, and you go 'meh... I think I will...'. TWICE!

...and then Mark drops a few short words and suddenly 'ok' (!!!)

When the hell did pigs started flying and made people value Mark's opinion over mine!?!?!?!?

IronMonkey · Post by **IronMonkey** » 08 Nov 2007, 00:22

LOL! I just thought, meh, 2 people have suggested printing on 3 pages instead of 2 so it must be a good idea...

Don't worry, I value your opinion as much as Mark's!