Just bought a noisy 360 Elite: Legally, where do I stand?

IronMonkey · Post by **IronMonkey** » 01 Nov 2007, 21:40

[Also posted at AV Forums - just wanted to get a wide range of opinions]

OK, I want to know where I stand on this, so I'll have to explain it all.

On Tuesday I went to my local Blockbuster & bought an XBox 360 Elite bundle. My mate bought the same console & a different game bundle. I had a chat with the staffmember (who I know quite well as I used to work with her) and commented on the fact that these systems had a tendancy to go faulty. She said if there were any problems within the first 28 days Blockbuster would swap the console & after that, it was up to Microsoft to do any repair work.

We took the consoles home to find my mate has a near-silent XBox when in the dashboard, and mine is really loud - like a jet engine. We've done a bit of reading & found out about the whole Nidec / DC Brushless fans issue.

Obviously, I'm not happy with my console & I see it as not of satisfactory quality. I took it back today & at first the Manager & Assistant Manager were happy to exchange it, saying they had not had any others back as faulty (I find that hard to believe).

They said they would have to ring around the other branches to get hold of another console, & I explained about the 2 different types of fans & that I would only be prepared to accept a replacement with Nidec fans.

I then left the shop for 10 minutes while they were waiting for a call back from another branch, & when I came back they had unboxed my console & hooked it up to their TV.

They said they were not prepared to exchange the unit as they said it was "not faulty", and that the console was "silent". Next to the counter are two very large American style fridge-freezers where the icecream & drinks are kept - they were making such a racket that I'm not surprised they couldn't hear it!

One of the employees put his head next to the console & said he couldn't hear it & that his own console sounded exactly the same. I could hear it & I was stood 4 feet away with the racket of the fridges behind me.

I explained (for about the 3rd time) that there are two types of fans & that I was not prepared to pay £300 for an inferior product, when my mate (who bought at the exact same time as me!) got the same product with a higher build quality!

They then said that they had no stock to replace it with, so I asked for a refund. The "assistant manager" said, and I quote "There is absolutely no way we can give a refund". I said I'm pretty sure I'm well within my rights to request a refund if the goods are not of satisfactory quality.

They said the only person who could issue a refund was the manager & she wasn't there - how convenient. So, two lads in the shop, one wearing a badge which said "Manager" on it, the other had one which said "Assistant Manager", & neither of them could issue a refund? They had to get authorisation from someone who wasn't there?

I asked what they suggested I do, and they said I needed to phone Microsoft & see what they say. I was getting pretty wound up by this & I was obviously getting nowhere with the two so-called "managers" so I left the shop.

Tonight, I have phoned Microsoft & spoken to two different people. The first girl was absolutely useless & said I'd need to call back in the morning as her system wasn't loading the troubleshooting system which she needed in order to help me. I tried to explain that I didn't need it troubleshooting, I knew what the problem was, but she just kept telling me to call back tomorrow.

I then decided to ring the Microsoft "Technical Support" line again straight after the first conversation had ended & got through to someone different. I explained the situation again, and - get this - the guy asked me to put the phone to the back of the XBox so he could hear the fans!

Well, I wasn't impressed but I did what he asked. He said it did seem louder than usual & that I should send it to Microsoft for repair.

I said I was in no way prepared to do this after owning the system for just TWO days & he said if it was within the 28 day period after purchase, I could take it back to where I got it from to have it exchanged for another unit.

So now I'm back to square one. I'll have to go in tomorrow & tell Blockbuster that Microsoft told me to get it swapped. I have nothing to prove that Microsoft have said this, & I feel like I'm going to be going round in circles for a long while yet.

Surely Blockbuster is in breach of my consumer rights? Isn't there a "cooling off period" of 7 days from time of purchase or something? For them to flat-out refuse to give a refund is breaking the law as far as I'm aware isn't it?

I just don't understand why companies have to be like this. I mean, why make the customer unhappy? I'm obviously never going to buy anything from Blockbuster ever again after this, & I'll warn my friends not to either.

It doesn't make good business sense either. When I was in the shop, other customers could see there was a problem & that I was not a satisfied customer - thats hardly going to do their reputation any good is it? Also, the stress & agro for everyone involved (me & the staff getting it in the neck from me!) would just disappear if they would just swap the damn thing!

I don't even particularly want a refund, I just want a system that is of decent build quality, not one that is unsatisfactory from the start. I payed a lot of money for this console & I feel I should be getting my money's worth & that I am not getting the same build quality as my mate's XBox has.

I got so annoyed with the noise from the fans last night that I ended up turning it off & playing on my old XBox instead.

So, where do I stand with this issue? Am I right in thinking that I am within my rights to demand a replacement? Are Blockbuster right to say I can't have a refund (even when they "can't replace it" because they deem it not faulty & they don't have any more stock? How do I stand if Blockbuster say it is not faulty? Microsoft are basically trying to wash their hands of it & so are Blockbuster.

I am not amused.

Lourdes · Post by **Lourdes** » 02 Nov 2007, 00:57

There is nothing wrong with your product - the fan isn't faulty it's just one that's louder right? Differing components in products is commonplace. So you have no legal right to anything I'm afraid: no replacement, no refund, nothing.
But what I would do is try to return it to another branch. If that fails persist with the one you go it from else try Microsoft.

EvaUnit02 · Post by **EvaUnit02** » 02 Nov 2007, 02:22

It's not unusual at all for 360's to sound like jet turbines.

Which disc drive do you have?
http://www.llamma.com/xbox360/Xbox_360_ ... arison.htm

My Elite is near-silent when on the dashboard, but does become significantly noisier when reading a disc. I have the Hitachi drive, the Benq is supposed to be pretty quiet.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 02 Nov 2007, 14:09

Check this link:

http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/cgi- ... 3-1011.txt

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 02 Nov 2007, 15:26

As Mark has suggested I do think this is worth perusing. Don't ever mention it "could" be how your model is designed, that will put the answer they want to hear in their heads.

You could try writing a letter to head office, politely explaining your situation. I find a letter at the very least gets their attention and says you're not going to go away.

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 03 Nov 2007, 00:38

Just wrap it in some towels and let it burn for a while, get the red ring of death, bring it back, and get a new one. Problem solved. Ow... and dont shop at that bastard store again.

We have a Media Markt here. When I buy something that isnt to my pleasure, I just received my money back. Not all MM are that good at customer-service I believe... but the one at my place didnt have any problems with me returning 2 of their electric toothbrushes, after which I got my money back, plus some other thing I returned there, but at the moment I have forgotten what it was...

It's such a shame that some stores think that people would complain and come back to the store without a solid reason. You said you didnt just want your money back, but that you just wanted the product, only a better working one. It's not like you just changed your mind on owning a 360 or something.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 03 Nov 2007, 03:35

To be awkward when you're not even asking for your money back is inexcusable. Big stores should even offer a no quibble money back guarantee too.

saltysam · Post by **saltysam** » 03 Nov 2007, 09:18

bradavon wrote: Big stores should even offer a no quibble money back guarantee too.

even the likes of hmv,who suffered huge losses for years from people buying cds,copying them then bringing them back for a refund

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 03 Nov 2007, 14:40

Of course. If HMV wanted to they could say a CD still has to be sealed, that would fix that one. Obviously it's not fair to say that on an Xbox.

It's funny to see just after Christmas time when stores gets flipping thousands of returns. I wouldn't be surprised if 10% of their Xmas sales they end up giving a refund for. Still as Xmas is a cash cow for the retail outlets they don't care.

romerojpg · Post by **romerojpg** » 03 Nov 2007, 14:42

Break it, take it back. Works every time for me. Then they cannot dispute a thing. I did it recently with an MP3 player.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 03 Nov 2007, 14:43

I've never been refused an exchange or refund from HMV or Megastore.

If you're not happy with your purchase and have a good reason then Blockbuster should give you satisfaction.

Don't let them off the hook...

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 03 Nov 2007, 15:05

I have but I didn't have the receipt. HMV and WH Smiths used to accept anything back rarely even asking for a receipt.

I even once (back in my youth) tried to take exchange a video in "Our Price" and the manager smugly informed me they'd not sold that item for the past 3 months, oops

. I got much better at it after that

romerojpg wrote:Break it, take it back. Works every time for me. Then they cannot dispute a thing. I did it recently with an MP3 player.

Don't make it too obvious though. It's best to try and break it internally.

tom2681 · Post by **tom2681** » 03 Nov 2007, 15:21

Set fire to the damn thing...

Then bring it back and say "It overheated because of a faulty fan".

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 03 Nov 2007, 21:45

bradavon wrote:I have but I didn't have the receipt.

Duh!

I even once (back in my youth) tried to take exchange a video in "Our Price" and the manager smugly informed me they'd not sold that item for the past 3 months, oops

Duh!!

Don't make it too obvious though. It's best to try and break it internally.

I wouldn't even take the chance. If they send it to the manufacturers they'll know if it's been tampered with. You don't need to break the law to get a refund. Stick to the rules and you should be alright. Would you really take advice from Romero??

IronMonkey · Post by **IronMonkey** » 03 Nov 2007, 22:28

Well, I am sticking to the rules & it turns out I was right anyway. Tonight is the first time I've had a proper play on the console (i.e. more than 30 minutes) since I bought it (on Tuesday, so 4 days ago) and it has already shown its true fault.

I was playing a few XBLA games (Geometry Wars rocks!) whilst downloading some demos, for just under 2 hours. I finished downloading the Virtua Fighter 5 demo & had a few matches on that. Then I decided to play a multiplayer round or 2 on Battlefield 2. I popped the disc into the DVD tray, booted the game, got into the menu, & connected to a server. The map loaded, then the XBox shut down.

I looked at the front, & there were 2 red lights flashing - the top left & bottom left of the quadrant. I looked in the manual & it said (surprise, surprise) the console was overheating & needed to cool down.

Here is a direct quote from the manual:

Two left lights on console flash red: The console is too hot and will not play games until cooled down. Place the console in a well-ventilated area away from other heat sources. Once the console cools, the flashing will stop and the Xbox 360 console can be played. For more information, see “Select a Location for the Xbox 360.”

Well, I install TV & entertainment systems all day long as my job, & I build PCs in my spare time, so I know how to ventilate an electrical item properly. My XBox 360 is sat on the top of my AV cabinet & has plenty of airflow around it, so that is not the problem.

So, after 2 hours of use, my XBox is overheating & needs to cool down. That tells me one thing - faulty. Especially since it is the first time since I have bought it that I have even properly used it!

The XBox shut itself off at 9pm tonight & it is now 10:22pm as I'm writing this & the red lights are still flashing. So Blockbuster have no grounds to refuse a replacement refund now, as they cannot say it is not faulty when I can only use it for 2 hours before it needs to cool down! Thats pathetic.

Since I know they don't have any more 360 Elites in stock, I'm pretty sure I'm now well within my rights to demand my money back.

I just knew that there was something wrong with it! I knew it! I knew the fans didn't sound like they were working properly.

I wouldn't like to be the Blockbuster staff tomorrow when I get there.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 03 Nov 2007, 23:20

Good luck Iron Monkey. Don't leave until they give you what you want.

Oh and make sure you speak to the person who has authority to actually make decisions.

Markgway wrote:Duh!

Oh you jest but back in the day I took loads back without reciept, half the time I had even bought it there

I once took back a video I paid 99p for from Woolworths (it was a "buy this and get this for 99p" deal) and got £18 for it in HMV

. I was well surprised by that one. I've not done it for years now.

Markgway wrote:I wouldn't even take the chance. If they send it to the manufacturers they'll know if it's been tampered with. You don't need to break the law to get a refund. Stick to the rules and you should be alright. Would you really take advice from Romero??

TBH neither would I. I was just pointing out you don't want to damage it too much but agreed you don't need to break it, that's foolish.

The law is on IM's side so argue. The point here is "DO NOT GIVE UP". I've been arguing with my credit card company over an overcharge since May. I'm not giving up until they give in and don't charge me

. I have a good case.

IronMonkey · Post by **IronMonkey** » 04 Nov 2007, 00:31

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, I took photographs of the red lights on the console & also of the console itself so that Blockbuster can see I have given it plenty of ventilation room. There's no way they can refuse me a refund if I have photographic proof.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 04 Nov 2007, 00:35

That and it will show you're being serious. You wouldn't go to the lengths to take photos if you really weren't "that" bothered.

IronMonkey · Post by **IronMonkey** » 04 Nov 2007, 00:36

Thats true. To be honest, before I would've been happy to just get it exchanged, but now, after the poor way they've treated me, I just want my money back so I can buy from somewhere else...

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 04 Nov 2007, 02:07

If it was much cheaper there's no harm getting an exchange (if you can). If that is faulty it will add stacks of weight to get a refund.

Lourdes · Post by **Lourdes** » 04 Nov 2007, 03:58

bradavon wrote:If it was much cheaper there's no harm getting an exchange (if you can). If that is faulty it will add stacks of weight to get a refund.

Stacks of weight? Faulty means he's legally entitled to a refund.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 04 Nov 2007, 04:11

Yep having to take back a second unit would mean for sure IM could still get a refund later on.

Agreed. I was just saying if IM got a bargain he maybe shooting himself in the foot by not at least trying an exchange, obviously assuming the price was great. Of course go for a refund though if you want one though. I wasn't saying otherwise.

IronMonkey · Post by **IronMonkey** » 04 Nov 2007, 09:17

Well I'm going down when they open at 10am I reckon. I'm not even giving them a chance of swapping it - I want my money back. They are a horrible company to deal with. The machine is faulty, so like Lourdes says, I'm legally entitled to a refund.

I got the XBox with Halo 3 for £310 & then I got the "Entertainment Pack" (PGR 3 & extra wireless controller) with it for a discounted price of £20. Well as far as I'm concerned, on the receipt it says I payed £299.99 for the console so that is what they have to refund, regardless of what other deals I got with it.

I'm going to try to keep the other stuff since there's nothing wrong with the games & controller & they're no longer sealed anyway so its not like Blockbuster can sell them again.

In about 45 minutes, I wouldn't like to be the Blockbuster staff!

IronMonkey · Post by **IronMonkey** » 04 Nov 2007, 14:59

Well surprise, surprise, there were 2 girls working who I'd never seen before. They were both "sales assistants" & apparently neither of them knew how to process a refund & I would have to see the manager, but she wasn't in.

Why are managers never available to speak to in person?!

Anyway, the girls looked completely clueless so I asked them to phone the manager. One of them did & said that I would have to come in & see her tomorrow, between 9am & 6pm.

I cannot believe that "sales assistants" are not taught how to do a refund in this day & age. Thats completely ridiculous.

So, the saga continues. I will be going back in tomorrow & I am not leaving the shop until I get my money.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 04 Nov 2007, 15:16

I can believe it, sales staff a usually school kids who they barely train at all. Useless!

More to the point why is there no manager on site? I bet if the police turned up the manager would be there in less than 10 minutes.

If you don't see the manager tomorrow I'd write a letter to head office, mentioning the store you dealt with. If the manager isn't in tomorrow tell them that's not your problem and you want a refund. Say you're happy to wait for the manager to arrive.

At least it sounds like the manager confirmed they'd give you a refund, through the as usual useless sales people.