What Have You Just Seen... Marks Out of 5

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 01 Oct 2007, 07:34

I agree with Mark, OUATIC is a classic, a better FILM than Fist of Legend as it has excellent acting, story etc as well as great fights. It's a classic and FOL is a great MOVIE though.

saltysam · Post by **saltysam** » 01 Oct 2007, 09:36

i prefer Fist Of Legend to OUATIC.

EvaUnit02 · Post by **EvaUnit02** » 01 Oct 2007, 09:40

Is Fist of Legend better than Fist of Fury?

Shingster · Post by **Shingster** » 01 Oct 2007, 10:09

Depends on whether you prefer Yuen Wo-ping's style over Bruce Lee's, as the story is pretty much the same. Personally i'd give the edge to Fist of Legend.

EvaUnit02 · Post by **EvaUnit02** » 01 Oct 2007, 10:45

NINJA EDIT

Shingster · Post by **Shingster** » 01 Oct 2007, 10:53

EvaUnit02 wrote:Laurent Bouzereau and Charles de Lauzirika often make one doco, but split it up into featurettes.

Wrong thread methinks...

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 01 Oct 2007, 12:18

I'm not sure which is better, theyre both great, Fist of Legend is more tolerant to the Japanese side, Fist of Fury is Bruce's best film.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 01 Oct 2007, 12:42

EvaUnit02 wrote:Is Fist of Legend better than Fist of Fury?

IMO Fist of Fury flows better and is better directed. The Fist of Legends sets look a bit too much like sets for my liking, in Fist of Fury they look real.

Personally I much prefer the Fist of Fury action too. Bruce Lee going ape shit is always lots of fun to watch. Bruce Lee films are the only old school martial arts films I like.

As Shingster has said the story is basically the same. If memory serves me correctly in Fist of Fury Bruce fights the Russian but not really his Japanese leader, in Fist of Fury there is no Russian and Jet goes against the Japanese Leader instead.

Both have their right to exist. Fist of Legend isn't just a pants remake.

grim_tales wrote:Fist of Fury is Bruce's best film.

Definitely but Enter the Dragon has greater rewatch value.

EvaUnit02 · Post by **EvaUnit02** » 01 Oct 2007, 13:22

Does Jet Li don funny disguises in FoL? Bruce as the Jerry Lewis-esque telephone repairman was classic.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 01 Oct 2007, 13:24

In Fist of Fury Bruce beats the Japanese leader I'm sure. The guy he kicks through the window (Jackie Chan doubled for him).

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 01 Oct 2007, 14:14

EvaUnit02 wrote:Is Fist of Legend better than Fist of Fury?

No.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 01 Oct 2007, 14:22

grim_tales wrote:Fist of Legend is more tolerant to the Japanese side

Yes, an amazing piece of forgiving revisionism on the part of filmmakers who were born AFTER the war.

The original's filmmakers had lived thru the war and bitterly remembered all the horrendous things the Japanese had done to Chinese (ie. the MILLIONS massacred in Nanking).

Thus there was a strong hatred of Japanese in early 70s Kung Fu cinema and Fist of Fury was one of numerous movies which accurately reflected this.

Unlike the sanitised Fist of Legend, Fist of Fury doesn't pretend to forgive and forget. The Japanese were nasty little bastards and I don't think rewriting history in the name of political correctness offers any positives (especially when the Japanese themselves are so good at doing that).

Shingster · Post by **Shingster** » 01 Oct 2007, 14:48

The toning down of the Japanese in FoL isn't political correctness at all, it's just that they decide to make the Japanese people less bigoted whilst portraying the Japanese military as evil bastards. That's not "revisionism" at all, but much closer to the truth.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 01 Oct 2007, 14:54

Agree. Seems fair enough to me, making Jet's girlfriend Japanese isn't PC.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 01 Oct 2007, 15:11

Shingster wrote:Ok, ok. I'll admit that i'm probably harbouring too much resentment towards you after the thread you started about being banned from DVDTimes, as some good friends of mine write/run the site and I happen to know for a fact that a lot of bullshit was spewed forth in that thread of yours and you was the main instigator of it all.

That's understandable. As far as I'm concerned that's long since history but I can understand why you may not think so.

Shingster wrote:and promise that I will at least try to hold my breath next time you make a dopey comment.

Thanks. We all say dopey things at times, maybe me more than most. No not upset me but more the continual tone of the replies gets a bit much.

Shingster wrote:Clean slate, that fair enough?

Good idea, ta.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 01 Oct 2007, 15:26

Markgway wrote:The Japanese were nasty little bastards and I don't think rewriting history in the name of political correctness offers any positives (especially when the Japanese themselves are so good at doing that).

I was speaking to my Korean friend about this (who lived in Japan for years) and she said the Japanese have never apologised to anyone nor do they feel really very sorry for their actions.

I explained this is in stark contrast to Germany where they do feel deeply guilty and sorry for their actions.

EvaUnit02 wrote:Does Donnie Yen don funny disguises in FoL? Bruce as the Jerry Lewis-esque telephone repairman was classic.

Donnie Yen is in the Fist of Fury TV remake but not in Fist of Legend but no there are no funny disguises in FOL. With any luck DD should be releasing it soon(ish) and you'll be able to find out.

There are no remotely decent versions out there yet, except for the French only subtitled French DVD.

grim_tales wrote:In Fist of Fury Bruce beats the Japanese leader I'm sure. The guy he kicks through the window (Jackie Chan doubled for him).

Correct but that's not who he goes head to head against. If memory serves me right. The main fight is with the Russian but Japanese sergeant in Fist of Legend.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 01 Oct 2007, 15:51

Shingster wrote:The toning down of the Japanese in FoL isn't political correctness at all, it's just that they decide to make the Japanese people less bigoted whilst portraying the Japanese military as evil bastards. That's not "revisionism" at all, but much closer to the truth.

The Japanese were a notoriously xenophobic race and whilst not everyone was an evil military bastard the public supported or turned a blind eye to the horrorific war crimes their leaders were committing. Even now the Japanese refuse to accept responisbility for what they did. Therefore I feel it's unhelpful to soft pedal their role in the war. Culturaly speaking Fist of Fury is a far more important movie.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 01 Oct 2007, 15:53

bradavon wrote:I was speaking to my Korean friend about this (who lived in Japan for years) and she said the Japanese have never apologised to anyone nor do they feel really very sorry for their actions.
I explained this is in stark contrast to Germany where they do feel deeply guilty and sorry for their actions.

Exactly. That's part of what I was trying to say.

Correct but that's not who he goes head to head against. If memory serves me right. The main fight is with the Russian but Japanese sergeant in Fist of Legend.

Bruce fights the Russian first, then the Japanese leader. They're both key duels, even if the latter is a bit shorter.

Shingster · Post by **Shingster** » 01 Oct 2007, 15:54

bradavon wrote:I was speaking to my Korean friend about this (who lived in Japan for years) and she said the Japanese have never apologised to
anyone nor do they feel really very sorry for their actions.

It's because many of the military officials and politicians behind the occupation of China/Korea remained in the government for many years after the war, and they essentially did their best to downplay the war crimes. Even though the British/American governments and China/Korea have long criticised their actions in WW2 and demanded an apology, the actual Japanese public have remained remarkably ignorant about the whole thing. It's become a taboo subject for them. The atomic bombs destroying Hiroshima and Nagasaki also hasn't helped, as that just victimised Japan as a nation in its own public's eyes.

Masato Harada is one of the few directors who has frequently touched upon this strange "don't ask, don't tell" attitude towards WW2 that's occurred between the generations in Japan, and how the elder generation still glorify it. The truth is, no nation's directors make so many film's criticise some aspect of their own society like the Japanese do, but you could probably count with the fingers of one hand the number of Japanese films you've seen that heavily criticise their role in WW2.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 01 Oct 2007, 15:59

Yes, I would say that the H-bombs remain the worst examples of war crimes that have ever occured in human history. There's no words to describe how disgusting that was... and I fully understand Japanese resentment over it. But I doubt the public ignorance is down to lack of knowledge, but rather shame. If you deny something bad then maybe it never happened. The Germans have taken the opposite viewpoint and have confessed and repented for their sins. Until the Japanese do that, there will always be a shadow over their country. If you want to see why the Chinese hate the Japanese so much check out Men Behind the Sun (if you've got a strong stomach).

Shingster · Post by **Shingster** » 01 Oct 2007, 16:09

Markgway wrote:Yes, I would say that the H-bombs remain the worst examples of war crimes that have ever occured in human history. There's no words to describe how disgusting that was... and I fully understand Japanese resentment over it. But I doubt the public ignorance is down to lack of knowledge, but rather shame. If you deny something bad then maybe it never happened. The Germans have taken the opposite viewpoint and have confessed and repented for their sins. Until the Japanese do that, there will always be a shadow over their country. If you want to see why the Chinese hate the Japanese so much check out Men Behind the Sun (if you've got a strong stomach).

It's the fact they treat the subject as taboo, partly through as you say a sense of national shame and partly through the Japanese government's propoganda (and the nation's resentment over losing) in the post-ww2 years that has lead to this "lack of knowledge". Seriously, your average Japanese citizen will know far, far less about their own nation's campaigns in the war than say us Brits and the Germans.

As callous as it may seem, them not apologising for the war won't leave a black mark over.

The Germans have taken the opposite viewpoint and have confessed and repented for their sins. Until the Japanese do that, there will always be a shadow over their country.

Would you say the same thing about Spain though? They systematically wiped out half of South America when they started colonizing America in the 1500's, the amount of people they wiped out and the sheer brutality and inhumanity of their tactics make the Japanese seem like a bunch of amateurs.

I've seen Men Behind the Sun, crude but effective film.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 01 Oct 2007, 16:16

Yes, I would say that the H-bombs remain the worst examples of war crimes that have ever occured in human history. There's no words to describe how disgusting that was...

I'd say the Holocaust was worse but only because it was carried out by thousands of people not a handful of those who were in control. It is semantics though as both are incredibly evil.

The atomic bombs destroying Hiroshima and Nagasaki also hasn't helped, as that just victimised Japan as a nation in its own public's eyes.

True. I'd say all sides (to a greater or lesser extent) aren't blameless.

Would you say the same thing about Spain though? They systematically wiped out half of South America when they started colonizing America in the 1500's, the amount of people they wiped out and they sheer brutality and inhumanity of their tactics make the Japanese seem like a bunch of amateurs.

True but that was considerably longer ago in history. Personally I think it entirely different to compare the two when the actions were carried out by people long since dead.

To use that pov the Brits are easily just as evil but the events were such a long time ago I don't think Britain should keep feeling guilty for it's own sins.

Seriously, your average Japanese citizen will know far, far less about their own nation's campaigns in the war than say us Brits and the Germans.

Definitely without a doubt. It's all about the loss of honour to many old Japanese people. Even though Japan today is very much an ally of the West.

EvaUnit02 · Post by **EvaUnit02** » 01 Oct 2007, 16:18

bradavon wrote:
EvaUnit02 wrote:Does Donnie Yen don funny disguises in FoL? Bruce as the Jerry Lewis-esque telephone repairman was classic.
Donnie Yen is in the Fist of Fury TV remake but not in Fist of Legend but no there are no funny disguises in FOL. With any luck DD should be releasing it soon(ish) and you'll be able to find out.

Sorry, meant Jet Li.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 01 Oct 2007, 16:20

I thought you did, hence the second bit.

EvaUnit02 · Post by **EvaUnit02** » 01 Oct 2007, 16:22

Is FOL the one with the under-cranked fights that not many people like? Or am I thinking of some Donnie Yen film?