Manhunter: R1TC2007 v R2JTC v R2UKWP v R2UKRDC v R1WP v R1DC

EvaUnit02 · Post by **EvaUnit02** » 19 Apr 2007, 11:26

Manhunter: R1 2007 True TC (MGM) vs. R2J True TC (MGM) vs. R2UK Workprint (Momentum 2 Disc SE) vs. R2UK Remastered DC (Momentum 2 Disc SE) vs. R1 Workprint (Anchor Bay LE) vs. R1 Non-Remastered DC (Anchor Bay LE) vs. TVRip

The story here is that the supposed "Theatrical Cut" included with the past US Anchor Bay and UK Momentum releases is not the proper Theatrical Cut that was shown in cinemas, on VHS and LD, it is really an incomplete workprint.

Most notably this workprint is missing:-
-The solarization filter applied to the sequence at the very start of the film - a first-person view of the Tooth Fairy in his victim's home (See the first selection.).
-A scene where Graham talks the Tooth Fairy's childhood and empathises with him.

AFAIK the true Theatrical Cut was up until only very recently available in Japan and France in the OAR, it's now out in R1 land exclusively as part of the Hannibal Lecter Collection. EDIT: Now available separately as well as in the Hannibal Lecter Collection.

Notes on the True TC:-
Both the R1 MGM 2007 DVD and R2J MGM DVD feature the True TC. Comparing them side by side they look "identical" (both run for 1:59:52), this is despite the slightly higher bitrate on the R1 MGM 2007 DVD. The French DVD mentioned above was also released by MGM.

Notes on the DC:-
-For some daft reason Momentum put the DC onto a DVD5.
-The remastered DC transfer on R2UK Momentum 2-disc SE is taken from the same HD master as the OOP R1 Anchor Bay Divimax release (and also has the same Mann director's commentary from that release).

Related links:-
Rundown of the differences between all four cuts available in R1 land.

Average Bitrates:-
R1 2007 True TC (MGM) - DVD9 - 8.21Mb
R2J True TC (MGM) - DVD9 - 7.97Mb
R2UK Workprint (Momentum) - DVD9 - 5.53Mb
R2UK Remastered DC (Momentum) - DVD5 - 4.60Mb
R1 Workprint (Anchor Bay LE) - 5.80Mb
R1 Non-Remastered DC (Anchor Bay LE) - 4.37Mb

R1 2007 True TC (MGM)

R2J True TC (MGM)

R2UK Workprint (Momentum)

R2UK Remastered DC (Momentum)

R1 Workprint (Anchor Bay LE)

R1 Non-Remastered DC (Anchor Bay LE)

R1 2007 True TC (MGM)

R2J True TC (MGM)

R2UK Workprint (Momentum)

R2UK Remastered DC (Momentum)

R1 Workprint (Anchor Bay LE)

R1 Non-Remastered DC (Anchor Bay LE)

TVrip

R1 2007 True TC (MGM)

R2J True TC (MGM)

R2UK Workprint (Momentum)

R2UK Remastered DC (Momentum)

R1 Workprint (Anchor Bay LE)

R1 Non-Remastered DC (Anchor Bay LE)

TVrip

R1 2007 True TC (MGM)

R2J True TC (MGM)

R2UK Workprint (Momentum)

R2UK Remastered DC (Momentum)

R1 Workprint (Anchor Bay LE)

R1 Non-Remastered DC (Anchor Bay LE)

TVrip

R1 2007 True TC (MGM)

R2J True TC (MGM)

R2UK Workprint (Momentum)

R2UK Remastered DC (Momentum)

R1 Workprint (Anchor Bay LE)

R1 Non-Remastered DC (Anchor Bay LE)

TVrip

R1 2007 True TC (MGM)

R2J True TC (MGM)

R2UK Workprint (Momentum)

R2UK Remastered DC (Momentum)

R1 Workprint (Anchor Bay LE)

R1 Non-Remastered DC (Anchor Bay LE)

TVrip

R1 2007 True TC (MGM)

R2J True TC (MGM)

R2UK Workprint (Momentum)

R2UK Remastered DC (Momentum)

R1 Workprint (Anchor Bay LE)

R1 Non-Remastered DC (Anchor Bay LE)

TVrip

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 19 Apr 2007, 23:56

Nice work thanks Eva. Pity the True TC hasn't been remastered too. It's an easy one to the Workprint cut. That filter in the first capture is crucial though. I think I'll do what you did and get the Japanese DVD + UK DVD for the DC.

I believe it's a given the true TC (the one always shown on TV over here) is the best cut. What's the Mann commentary like? Does the DVD-5 on the DC effect it to much?

I heard the DC was the workprint plus the extra scenes, pity it's not as most of it is the same and therefore they could've easily made the DC look much better.

p.s - Isn't 3 cuts, 4 dvds?

EvaUnit02 · Post by **EvaUnit02** » 20 Apr 2007, 03:33

bradavon wrote:Pity the True TC hasn't been remastered too.

The R2J has a superb transfer IMO and looks the best of the 3 DVDs judging by this comparison. The Remastered DC should look equal, but it probably suffers since a 2 hour film has been shoved onto a DVD5, I'd expect that the OOP R1 Anchor Bay Divimax release looks better (since it is on a DVD9).

I think I'll do what you did and get the Japanese DVD + UK DVD for the DC.

If you can find it that is, it's re-released on periodic basis (like a lot of Japanese DVDs - why they don't stay in print ALL THE TIME is a mystery to me.) so you'll definitely be to able to get it at some point. You could always buy the R1 Hannibal Lecter Collection which is cheap @ ~$20 USD. The DVDs come in individual keepcases so the unwanted discs can easily be sold off or given away. But personally I'd say that the R2J is worth getting for the nice bassy DTS remix.

What's the Mann commentary like? Does the DVD-5 on the DC effect it to much?

Dunno. I've only watched the True TC and the featurettes on the Workprint disc. But judging from this comparison the transfer probably has suffered by being shoved on a DVD5. DVD5 is passable for a ~90min or less runtime, but 100min+ film? Get the fuck out you half-arsed DVD producers.

I heard the DC was the workprint plus the extra scenes, pity it's not as most of it is the same and therefore they could've easily made the DC look much better.

Theories on the net suggest that Mann may've assembled the Remastered DC using MGM's master (so thus the same one used for the R2J True TC DVD) and inserted cleaned up scenes from the surviving VHS source.

I have to say that for the stuff from a VHS source, they've done a hell of job cleaning them up.

From the reinserted scene near the very end where Graham visits the Tooth Fairy's next intended victims.

p.s - Isn't 3 cuts, 4 dvds?

There is a 4th cut indeed, did you not read the link? The Unrestored DC that appeared in the R1 Anchor Bay 2-disc LE from around 2000/2001, taken wholesale from Mann's VHS copy and it reportedly looks like absolute arse. That is the longest cut available and has a missing scene that likely Mann chose to remove when he supervised the creation of the Remastered DC.

EvaUnit02 · Post by **EvaUnit02** » 20 Apr 2007, 13:36

Added TV rip caps. Why? Becuz I was bored. This film was shot in Super35, thus very nice open-matte versions can be made. Nothing beats the OAR though.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 20 Apr 2007, 23:23

EvaUnit02 wrote:But personally I'd say that the R2J is worth getting for the nice bassy DTS remix.

Nice I didn't know that was on there. Does it have any extras? Pity it's OOP at the momentum.

EvaUnit02 wrote:DVD5 is passable for a ~90min or less runtime, but 100min+ film? Get the fuck out you half-arsed DVD producers

Agreed. I wish I'd picked up the R1 AB now. I didn't as I liked the idea of two cuts found on the UK version but in honesty the work print doesn't interest me when I could get the True TC instead (which I didn't realise existed until I heard about the Japanese DVD.

The R1 AB + Japanese DVD would be the perfect Combo.

EvaUnit02 wrote:From the reinserted scene near the very end where Graham

Are those from the DC? I don't recognise them having only ever seen the True TC. I presume it is it's the one always shown on UK TV and definitely has that Graham line everyone loves.

EvaUnit02 wrote:There is a 4th cut indeed, did you not read the link?

Of course but missed that there are two Director's Cuts.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 21 Apr 2007, 00:35

Think maybe I liked the R2J True TC (MGM) the best image-wise.

EvaUnit02 · Post by **EvaUnit02** » 21 Apr 2007, 02:37

bradavon wrote:Does it have any extras?

A trailer, otherwise barebones.

bradavon wrote:
EvaUnit02 wrote:From the reinserted scene near the very end where Graham
Are those from the DC?

Yes dummy.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 21 Apr 2007, 16:11

Thanks.

What's the DC like? Answer that when you've seen it. It has that Graham scene right? I hear the True TC is the best but is it?

romerojpg · Post by **romerojpg** » 21 Apr 2007, 16:24

Mmmm The Japanese version looks nice

I have the 3 american versions still. The 2 dvd limited one and the more recent Dir cut, the commentary if I remember right is not a commentary, its an interview over parts of the film (I COULD BE WRONG).

Shingster · Post by **Shingster** » 21 Apr 2007, 20:01

I have the original R1 LE and the R2j DVD, if I can be arsed later i'll take som matching grabs from the LE.

dvdvision · Post by **dvdvision** » 22 Apr 2007, 10:46

I trew out all my versions of the movie, except the french original Pal DVD, that's too many variations and too confusing to boot.

EvaUnit02 · Post by **EvaUnit02** » 22 Apr 2007, 14:43

dvdvision wrote:that's too many variations and too confusing to boot.

The different number of versions of Army of Darkness or the Star Wars movies will make your head explode!

Grim better look out, he has competition!

dvdvision · Post by **dvdvision** » 23 Apr 2007, 12:22

Oh, I also had all the different versions of Army... also sold the lot except one... haha

slasher13 · Post by **slasher13** » 16 Sep 2007, 12:09

CdJapan have got this title pretty cheap now, they reissued Manhunter again, 7 pounds including p&p using Airmail.

See:
http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/detailview.htm ... 65&ref=myp

captainjoe · Post by **captainjoe** » 16 Sep 2007, 17:59

There's a new MGM widescreen R1 release I saw and if I pick it up I'll post caps

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 16 Sep 2007, 18:50

Please do.

I considered it but concluded despite now being in Anamorphic it's not a new transfer (just an educated guess though). I hope I made the right decision in picking up the Japanese R2, which is also an MGM DVD but is a very old DVD (from 2004).

It has DTS (the new R1 is just DD5.1). Both are the Theatrical Cut though, which is the main thing.

Shingster · Post by **Shingster** » 17 Sep 2007, 00:08

bradavon wrote:I hope I made the right decision in picking up the Japanese R2, which is also an MGM DVD but is a very old DVD (from 2004).

Of course you made the right decision, you got a good DVD release of an excellent film at a very reasonable price. The r2j features the edit of the film most people seem to prefer, and the A/V presentation is more than good enough to see you well until an eventual HD release. I wouldn't even blink twice at the new r1 DVD.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 17 Sep 2007, 00:24

It is an excellent film. It took me 2-3 watches to get it though. I kept comparing it to SOTL originally which is a completely type of different film.

I was just wondering how the R2J compares against the New MGM R1. I hear both feature the Theatrical Cut. I guess MGM must own the worldwide rights to it. The French DVD (now OOP) was also released by MGM.

Now where are those LE captures?

romerojpg wrote:The 2 dvd limited one and the more recent Dir cut.

That's 2 versions

It would be interesting if you could add DC captures from the Divimax version. I've been wondering how it compares to the UK DC which is only on a DVD-5.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 30 Sep 2007, 14:29

My R2J arrived yesterday and while the addition of the infamous scene makes it the definitive cut it's a shame quality isn't up to the workprint DVD.

The captures don't really show how much better the Remaster job is. To be fair the R2J is was first released in 2003 and while it's a decent effort it doesn't come close to how good the workprint looks. It's a shame they then stuffed it up by using the wrong cut of the film. The Remaster has stronger colours and has been better encoded.

I'd still opt to watch the R2J over the Workprint though, the DC IMO is a non-starter, the new scenes add nothing but look awful.

I am considering picking up the New MGM R1 to see if they've remastered their anamorphic transfer of just reused the R2J Master (the old OOP French MGM R2 is probably also from the same transfer).

It is only $13.45 Delivered at DVD Pacific or $13.99 at CD WOW USA (using the $2 Code, the link doesn't work).

dvdvision · Post by **dvdvision** » 04 Oct 2007, 15:19

Hi man

I still have the OOP region 2 and it's a bad, homemade transfert, not up to today's grade, with lots of EE. However the color timing was the closest to the theatrical release I have ever seen, probably because it was stuck from a distributor internegative. I'm getting rid of it because the TC have just been issued last month on R1 as a standalone disc for 8 $, you can't beat that ! I plan on getting the restored TC, however, I might save the french dubbed track in stereo and do my own restoration of it because apparently, the stereo track is not on other french release, it's only on mono :drunken:

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 04 Oct 2007, 15:31

The TC has been available on various R2 DVDs for 4+ years now

Why would you want to watch it dubbed into another language? I shudder at how bad Brian Cox must sound.

dvdvision · Post by **dvdvision** » 04 Oct 2007, 15:49

Hi again, well, most dubbed versions of the 80's movies in french were extremely well made, before it all went downhill in the mid 90's. Because at the time of VHS, no original language was available, only french dubs, we literaly watched those movies up to 30 times in french, so many times that we fell in love with the dubbed version. Of course when Pal tapes came out, I rushed to buy those, and then LDs and then DVDs, but nothing beat the added french dubs for nostalgia purposes.

Other french dubs, like Brian de Palma Scarface, are considered so good, many here believe they are to be prefered the original performances, and never watch the english version, (even if they generally only watch US movies in original language with subs). To see that the french dolby surround track of manhunter might be lost forever, sort of make me sad, so I would certainly like to resynch it to a good version of the TC, for my own pleasure.

Regarded french dubs, original ones might be redone on DVD for a variety of reasons : either the need for a 5.1 remix, or some voice guy asks for too much money (happens a lot to Disney), or simply, masters get lost. One of my friend who collects rare VHS, have made a habit of selling digital transferts of the french dubs when they are "lost". Once remastered, they come cheaper and more true to the original release, than to have redone a new dub.

dvdvision · Post by **dvdvision** » 04 Oct 2007, 15:56

BTW here's a capture, let me know if you want some more while I still have the DVD !

It was a Pioneer release.

EvaUnit02 · Post by **EvaUnit02** » 04 Oct 2007, 18:00

Oh please do post the rest of the OOP French disc caps. The more complete comparison, the better.

Brad, could you please do those R1 TC caps? Ta.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 04 Oct 2007, 19:23

Fair enough DVD Vision. I cannot stand dubs of any nature (no matter how good they are or if it's the same actor doing them) but then I've not grown up listening to them. They always sound so fake to me.

I'm guessing that French R2 is very old, it must predate the MGM.

EvaUnit02 wrote:Brad, could you please do those R1 TC caps? Ta.

What with? It's not turned up yet. I only ordered it Monday.