Salman Rushdie: Knighthood

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 22 Jun 2007, 17:37

I didn't criticise neither Christianity nor the Bible. I was just referring to that comment about the media by slasher, implying that those Christians who are criticising Islam for violence/killings/fatwa/Jihad (you name it) are knocking out themselves because worse stuff is found in the bible.

I admit I have criticised Christianity in the past in real life, but when I started to educated myself in-depth about Islam it became clear to me that I shouldn't. I would only confront them with their own accusations.

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 22 Jun 2007, 17:40

Shingster wrote:Salman Rushdie has won one Booker prize and very nearly won another, that in itself speaks volumes of his literary achievements.

I don't know if this is an invalid comparison, but when a movie like "Titanic" receives 11 Oscars, it doesn't really say anything about Cameron's directing achievements, because "Titanic" was not a good film IMO. Other Cameron films that have received no Oscars are far better IMO.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 22 Jun 2007, 18:00

Rowling has won awards, not Booker Prizes granted but ones like Carnegie Medals and I'm sure the first 2 books won Smarties awards.
It was an odd comparison though, sorry.
The film analogy - well, I havent seen much of Hitchcock's work but it is a much wider body of work than Paul WS Anderson's. Hitchcock has made different genres of movie, Paul WS Anderson has made Resident Evil

Shingster · Post by **Shingster** » 22 Jun 2007, 18:32

thelostdragon wrote:I didn't criticise neither Christianity nor the Bible. I was just referring to that comment about the media by slasher, implying that those Christians who are criticising Islam for violence/killings/fatwa/Jihad (you name it) are knocking out themselves because worse stuff is found in the bible.

That's fine then, as long as you don't feel that anyone in this thread is attacking Islam, which certainly wasn't my intention at least! 8)

BiscLimpkit · Post by **BiscLimpkit** » 22 Jun 2007, 18:55

Markgway wrote:
If literary 'genius' is the sole factor for determining who gets a "Sir" prefix then why not knight Stephen fucking King?

You want to give Stephen King a British Knighthood?

Markgway wrote: The points I'm making are twofold: first, that in the discussion of Rushdie's knighthood that's being currently had, I've heard a lot more negative criticism of his work than positive, which casts doubt on his relative merits as a a writer; I'm not even taking The Satanic Verses controversy into account.

We've already agreed that this part of the arguement is redundant... onto the next one.

Markgway wrote: Secondly, that these doubts and objections fly in the face of the government's ludicrous assertion that the majority of Britain is behind the knighthood. The majority of Britain doesn't care. It's the liberal elite of London who decided. As Boris Johnson pointed out last night on Question Time: why not knight John LeCarre? Or is he not trendy enough?

It seems that you are doubting the process of knighthood in general. I don't think there was any need to bring Rushdie into it. You should've just renamed the original thread title.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 22 Jun 2007, 21:19

thelostdragon wrote:Instead they just sent hundreds of thousands of their people (be they soldiers or not) to do the same.

Taking away the justification for war that is very different. They're at war, people kill people in cold blood during war, it's what happens.

Killing someone on the street by way of a suicide bombing is very different.

A better comparison would be Bush or Blair telling the American or British people it's okay to kill ordinary Afghans (British, American or otherwise) as that's where the terrorist cell that trained both sets of people behind 9/11 and 7/7. Correct me if I'm wrong I don't believe either government has done that.

I don't disagree with the main crux of your point at all. I just wanted to point out they're not the same thing.

If literary 'genius' is the sole factor for determining who gets a "Sir" prefix then why not knight Stephen fucking King?

Classic and to think people round here think I'm slow at times

. I believe the Queen knights people if they've done something particularly good for British society.

I doesn't have to be in literature.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 23 Jun 2007, 02:01

BiscLimpkit wrote:You want to give Stephen King a British Knighthood?

Salman Rushdie was born in India. He didn't come to the UK until he was a young adult.

We've already agreed that this part of the arguement is redundant...

Why is it redundant? Are you saying we can only debate this topic if we've read his books. I guess we should all stop posting then? I'm questioning the validity of his knighthood based on literary merit (but not from my own point of view). Jack Straw is the latest public figure to come out and say he could never get thru one of Rushdie's books. I feel it's a worthwhile questioning why Rushdie was given an award and whether or not he deserved it. Are you in his fan club or something?

It seems that you are doubting the process of knighthood in general. I don't think there was any need to bring Rushdie into it. You should've just renamed the original thread title.

I'm against the honours system in general, yes, but I don't think that invalidates my original question.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 23 Jun 2007, 02:06

bradavon wrote:Classic and to think people round here think I'm slow at times . I believe the Queen knights people if they've done something particularly good for British society. I doesn't have to be in literature.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 23 Jun 2007, 08:56

Have you been taken over by the spirit of Eva?

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 23 Jun 2007, 11:03

bradavon wrote:I don't disagree with the main crux of your point at all. I just wanted to point out they're not the same thing.

Not the same thing? Innocent people die so it is the same thing to me. The only difference is that in the case of the war in Afghanistan and Iraqa lot more innocent people are dying. Usually in war you have an army vs. an army. Not civilians. The problem with this war however is that the invaders do not have a clear enemy. So they just called it "War on Terror" resulting in so many innocent people dying.

BiscLimpkit · Post by **BiscLimpkit** » 23 Jun 2007, 11:52

Markgway wrote: Salman Rushdie was born in India. He didn't come to the UK until he was a young adult.

Rather predictably, that's again completely irrelavant. Like many people born abroad and living in the UK, he is a British citizen.

Joanna Lumley was also born in India and has achieved an OBE. Granted it's not the highest rank of knighthood but is nevertheless an order of the British Empire.

Markgway wrote: Why is it redundant? Are you saying we can only debate this topic if we've read his books. I guess we should all stop posting then?

If the topic is "should Rushdie receive his knighthood for his services to literature?" then obviously, it can only be discussed if you've read his books. Otherwise the simple answer is "I don't know" (which is my answer), as I have not read his works. I am only saying that you cannot say that he 100% does not deserve it, if you have not read anything and are only going by what other people have said.

It's like me saying, "I don't know who this Terry Wogan is... someone told me that he's a wanker... he doesn't deserve his knighthood tbh imo."

Markgway wrote: I'm questioning the validity of his knighthood based on literary merit (but not from my own point of view). Jack Straw is the latest public figure to come out and say he could never get thru one of Rushdie's books. I feel it's a worthwhile questioning why Rushdie was given an award and whether or not he deserved it.

Oh so now that Jack Straw has spoken against Rushdie, he definitely doesn't deserve his knighthood now.

Markgway wrote: Are you in his fan club or something?

No but have you be sending him death threats or something? Have I ever claimed to support his knighthood? No. Have I ever spoken against his knighthood? No. But you have, without any clear evidence (apart from media speculation).

Markgway wrote: I'm against the honours system in general, yes, but I don't think that invalidates my original question.

Aye it does.

romerojpg · Post by **romerojpg** » 23 Jun 2007, 15:32

This threads turned into shit.

Its now all about the infidel British and Americans which is ussually how people bend these sorts of thread and never look towards their religion as bad in sooo many ways

lets change the subject of the heading?

GET A JOB YOU TWONKS! As I am as sure as shit your god wont pay your bills (the UK government gives you all the cash and housing you need when you sneak into our good country illegally).

Still...

One MP called for Mr Rushdie to be murdered, adding: "Whosoever kills him will be the hero of Muslims."

In response to the Knighthood of Rushdie a mullah in Pakistan has made Osama Bin Laden a "Sword of Islam" the Pakistan equivalent of a Knighthood, a high honour for a murdering twathead. Do you see us in the UK on the streets burning Osama effergies? and spewing hatefull bile and massing in the thousands and storming Indian goverment buildings? no as we are sane. Even the Scumbag British race haters wouldnt be that stupid.

But many Muslims think its justified and well worth honering him. And the following of the whole Rushdie thing is spreading pretty well around the world, with some pretty big demonstrations now involving a pretty big numbers of religous loosers.

If we took our Billion's worth of aid support away from the idiots in Pakistan, then they would protest as we pay for many hundreds of thousands of them to stay alive, yet they still say we are evil, mmm nice.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 23 Jun 2007, 19:21

grim_tales wrote:Have you been taken over by the spirit of Eva?

Maybe I AM Eva? You only believe I live in New Zealand because I tell you so...

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 23 Jun 2007, 19:38

BiscLimpkit wrote:Joanna Lumley was also born in India and has achieved an OBE.

I'm going to assume her parents were British.

If the topic is "should Rushdie receive his knighthood for his services to literature?" then obviously, it can only be discussed if you've read his books. Otherwise the simple answer is "I don't know" (which is my answer), as I have not read his works. I am only saying that you cannot say that he 100% does not deserve it, if you have not read anything and are only going by what other people have said.

I said that based on what others have said; it's not MY opinion. I put forward a question with a bit of devil's advocate for debate. But you're saying we should debate it at all. If we only debated things at Bullets we had experience of we might as well close this forum with immediate effect.

It's like me saying, "I don't know who this Terry Wogan is... someone told me that he's a wanker... he doesn't deserve his knighthood tbh imo."

Then it would be fair to say based on what you've been told that he didn't deserve a knighthood. Then we could discuss why he didn't (or did) and if your second hand info is flawed or reasonable? Though being a wanker is surely not a barrier when you consider all the wankers who have one. I don't claim to be an expert on Rushdie (or Wogan for that matter) I merely threw the idea open for debate. I've admitted I haven't read his books and am passing off second-hand opinions to stoke the fire for want of a better term. I think you're taking my words almost TOO literally.

Oh so now that Jack Straw has spoken against Rushdie, he definitely doesn't deserve his knighthood now.

OK, you're being silly now. Of course Straw isn't the arbiter of literary merit. I'm suggesting that there's a high profile voice against the claim that Rushdie is a great author. It's not MY opinion (which I keep saying), just what has been said elsewhere. Most of the topic we discuss we have no personal involvement with, doesn't mean you can throw ideas around. We're a forum not a think tank for the government.

No but have you be sending him death threats or something?

Why? What have you heard? :chain:

No. But you have, without any clear evidence (apart from media speculation).

To get a debate going.... aaargghhh!!! I feel like we're going round in circles. Most of what we discuss here comes from "the media" in one way or another. You're taking this far too seriously. Is there a po-faced emoticon for you?

That'll do!

Aye it does.

No it doesn't and I'm getting the notion that for some reason you're desperately trying to get on my tits. If you don't want to particpate then don't. You've said you have NO opinion yet you've posted a half-dozen times. Explain that.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 23 Jun 2007, 20:10

Terry Wogan has been made an honorary (sp?) knight for his services to broadcasting (radio and TV) AFAIK. He is an honorary knight (like Geldof) because he's an Irish citizen.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 23 Jun 2007, 20:20

I believe his knighthood has become a full honour because he subsequently became a British citizen. So you can now call him "Sir Terry" if you so wish.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 23 Jun 2007, 20:29

Ah right. Didn't realise that

BiscLimpkit · Post by **BiscLimpkit** » 24 Jun 2007, 00:01

Markgway wrote: I'm going to assume her parents were British.

Probably were but it doesn't make a blind bit of difference. Both Lumley and Rushdie are persently British citizens. Case closed.

Markgway wrote: I said that based on what others have said; it's not MY opinion.

I refer you to your original quote:

Markgway wrote: No, because it shouldn't have been given in the first place.

Although now, I can see that you have ammended it.

Markgway wrote: Then it would be fair to say based on what you've been told that he didn't deserve a knighthood.

No. I'd only think he deserved/did't deserve his knighthood based on evidence. I'm not a fan of second hand information.

Markgway wrote: Of course Straw isn't the arbiter of literary merit. I'm suggesting that there's a high profile voice against the claim that Rushdie is a great author.

If Straw is not of literary merit then as far as I'm concerned, his opposition against Rushdie is meaningless to me, regardless of his high profile.

Markgway wrote: It's not MY opinion (which I keep saying),

You've not made this point clear, until now. If that's the case then we're debating the same thing. You're right - this is going around in circles.

Markgway wrote: No it doesn't and I'm getting the notion that for some reason you're desperately trying to get on my tits. If you don't want to particpate then don't. You've said you have NO opinion yet you've posted a half-dozen times. Explain that.

I assure you I'm not trying to wind you up. Believe it or not, I hate trolling and do believe in a healthy debate. I just feel that to discuss this topic, you need more than just media speculation. My half-dozen posts were based on the assumption that you felt that he definitely didn't deserve his knighthood - a statement, which you now claim is untrue. If that is indeed the case then I guess our debate ends here.

I am sorry for all the mental anguish I may have caused. Didn't mean it - especially to a fellow Scot.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 24 Jun 2007, 00:34

BiscLimpkit wrote:I refer you to your original quote:

Markgway wrote: No, because it shouldn't have been given in the first place.
Although now, I can see that you have ammended it.

Yeah, I couldn't quite see why you were so insistant that I said he shouldn't get a knighthood, so I searched back thru the thread and found that misleading quote of mine. I changed it so hopefully it makes sense now. To be clear: I'm basing "my" objections on the theories of some others who've debated the merit of Rushdie's award. But I think the thread may have run its course now.

I am sorry for all the mental anguish I may have caused. Didn't mean it - especially to a fellow Scot.

I should be fine after some therapy and a nude massage.

You can start on my lower back.

BiscLimpkit · Post by **BiscLimpkit** » 10 Jul 2007, 23:16

Well here's one guy who definitely disapproves of Rushdie being knighted...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 289110.stm