The 15 captured British sailors...

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 09 Apr 2007, 08:02

What these brave men and women went through was probably hell, we may not know what really went on, but IMO they should not be allowed to sell thir stories to the bloody Sun and the other papers, and hence profit while others are dying, or have been captured

Why did the MOD give permission for this?

saltysam · Post by **saltysam** » 09 Apr 2007, 12:09

don't see a problem?

Shen · Post by **Shen** » 09 Apr 2007, 13:21

why will this become an excuse for retaliation tactics?

tom2681 · Post by **tom2681** » 09 Apr 2007, 13:36

Grim wrote:What these brave men and women went through was probably hell

WTH are you talking about ?!

They went into iranian territorial waters on purpose, and they let themselves get captured on purpose.

It was all part of the british plan.
They knew that the iranian authorities wouldn't free them, and that they'd demand an apology from Blair (an apology that would never come).
That would give the british an excuse to attack them.

Thankfully, the iranians were not fooled.
They freed the hostages and screwed Blair in the process.

Well done, mates !

I guess the media on the other side of the Channel have a different perspective, eh ?

Shen · Post by **Shen** » 09 Apr 2007, 13:45

of course we do lol! propaganda of course, where the UK is concerned we never get the full story, less than the rest of the world.

but i fear that this wont be the end of it, we are in need of another war for whatever reason, i hope I'm wrong but i can see this being the thing they are looking for (or created)

I'm just waiting for the "we heard them plotting to attack the UK or USA" always makes me laugh how they can suddenly understand the native language of the country...

romerojpg · Post by **romerojpg** » 09 Apr 2007, 14:19

Tom you do make up some prioceless shit.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 09 Apr 2007, 14:30

I think Tom's got it tit for arse: it was the Iranians who faked the British going into their waters and then showed the world how gracious they were by freeing hostages they should never have taken in the first place. It almost backfired when the Iranians gave the correct coordinates for the British when captured (they were in Iraqi waters) but later changed the figures so it would appear they had strayed into Iranian waters. But this is to be expected of a looney country like Iran and it's facist dicatator. What disturbs me is the British attitude. We've come out of this looking incredibly weak. Getting captured in the first place was bad enough, but watching these captives laughing and having a jolly old time was tough to stomach. Anyone of military personnel who has ever been captured for real must have felt bitter anger at seeing these bogus confessions being signed and the shaking of the President's hand, etc. It was a catalogue of errors now compounded by the MOD's allowence for them to sell their stories to the tabloids like kiss and tell tarts. They're not heroes, they are a disgrace to their uniform, and now are set to become rich because of it.

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 09 Apr 2007, 14:39

I just enjoyed all the double standards that were portrayed during this situation.

- People were upset that Iran would capture these guys for tresspassing onto Iranian waters. "HOW COULD THEY!?". People were screaming about how the UK and the USA shouldnt tolerate this. But imagine if there were Iranian soldiers entering british or american waters/land without permission. They would be arrested and in jail as well. There would be no talks, there would be no international 'outrage'. Those guys would just be in QB or in whatever other illegal prison, and theyw ould be there for a long long time without contact with lawyers or family. If this was the other way round, America would be nowhere near as 'nice' and 'understanding' as the Iranians have been.

Hell, The USA STILL has people contained in cages for over 4-5 years now who were picked up in their own countries, and on very vague charges. No sign of them being released anytime soon.

- After the british soldiers confessed that they were indeed in the wrong place, the western goverments (USA and British) were very quick to point out that their testimonies meant absolutely nothing because the british soldiers made them while they were in the hands of the iranians, and thus just made those statements in order to be freed or whatever.
With that logic, any confessions from Quantanamo Bay prisoners are therefore also meaningless.

- People complained about the female soldier being made to wear a scarf. Yeah, that's incredibly cruel as opposed to piling all the prisoners up while naked and under threat of some guard dogs, after which pictures are taken and spread all over the world(!)

The whole thing just seems full of lies. I do think the British soldiers were in Iranian waters when they were arrested by Iranian forces. Why? Cause it would make absolutely NO SENSE WHATSOEVER for Iranian forces to go OUTSIDE their own waters and 'attack' a british ship. Cause the western world, especially the UK and the USA would see that as an act of war and it would have been bombs away! Iran wouldnt take such a chance. America and the UK is trying everything to make a war happen. This was just another attempt to lure Iran into a conflict. Thank god, Iran kept their cool, and responded maturely. They released the british soldiers after lecturing the whole world about how the USA and the UK are solving their 'problems', as in seeing war as one of their first options.

These soldiers making a profit out if it? I'm not sure if I care? I'm not sure if they will tell the truth. Who says the UK goverment hasnt told them to spread lies about their treatment? I think we might hear the REAL truth about what happened when we're 10 years orso further down the line.

tom2681 · Post by **tom2681** » 09 Apr 2007, 14:41

@Mark:
Interesting POV...

But what's the motive ?

If it is a british plot, then it makes sense:
" -Evil iranians have captured our poor innocent sailors. Let's beat the shit out of them !"

If it is an iranian plot, then it doesn't work so well:
" -Let's go into iraqi waters and capture some sailors. Then, let's say they were on our turf and free them after a while. That way we'll look like nice people. "

Too risky, too silly IMO.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 09 Apr 2007, 14:51

Maybe what they went through was "bad" Tom, we don't know. Do you think they had any say in appearing on Iranian TV? Faye (can't remember her surname?) was probably coerced/bullied into writing those letters. But I agree with Mark, their stories shouldn't have been sold. It's means they can make money while other soldiers are fighting/getting killed

romerojpg · Post by **romerojpg** » 09 Apr 2007, 14:52

The experts above know it all. My arse they do.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 09 Apr 2007, 14:56

Huh?

You're an expert, yeah right

If you heard the letters being read out "We are being treated well, the food is good" etc, does it sound like something somebody would write of their own accord?

I thought the sailors were given co-ords for IRAQI waters.

Shen · Post by **Shen** » 09 Apr 2007, 15:06

Yi, you have great points.

we are trying everything to start war, why, i dunno. but it seems that its the way the leaders want to go. we would do exactly the same if Iranian sailors were in our waters, except as Yi stated we wouldn't be so understanding and gentle, it'd be 4-5yrs in Gitmo, or some other hell hole, and would the world hear about it? of course not. the USA and UK are trying to be world superpowers, and i hope to hell it comes crashing down on their heads.

again why would Iran go capture sailors outside their waters? what would it achieve? nothing, just to make them look like stupid people and give reason for the west to attack. I'm really sure that they want that....

IMO this is all propaganda, the selling of the stories, how "bad and terrible" it was there, and how abused they were and shit, what will the British peoples reactions be ..."GET THEM!! kick their asses, blow the shit out of them!!" and thats exactly what the governments want. why is it only now, on this event that they let them sell their stories? they've never been allowed to before.

if you think that countries wont sacrifice a few people for their plans then just look at the kids they send to unnecessary wars to die, for the illusion of "their country"
their country that start illegal and pointless wars, and kill millions of people including children and babies and call it "collateral damage" who extend this term to the 18yr olds out on the fields fighting on their behalf. tell that to the millions of families who have lost their kids, their fathers, mothers, brothers and sisters. tell them that "sorry they are just collateral damage" cannon fodder as it were.

this is all just a political move, like everything else, they want war with Iran, but after Iraq, WoMD just wont cut it with the public...so how about an attack on our military personnel, maybe a few terror plots thrown in for good measure. that might convince people.

romerojpg · Post by **romerojpg** » 09 Apr 2007, 15:06

Go away Grim, not one person on this forum has a clue what happened, its all guess work by people who THINK they know whats going on.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 09 Apr 2007, 15:12

Don't tell me to go away

You don't have a clue, so go away too

We can still talk about issues, thats what debate is for. Maybe I don't have a clue but I still think it is wrong for them to profit in any way from what has happened.
Great post, Yi.

romerojpg · Post by **romerojpg** » 09 Apr 2007, 15:27

They can profit all they like, criminals and scumare allowed to make cash from murder etc.. so some hard working soldiers should be able to as well.
They shouldnt be over there anyway mind you, but hell.

Theres Debate, and people who think they know exactly whats going on. We have no clue at all (no matter how muc hyou think you know), yet some people above think they know all the facts and all the lies. "Think" being the oprative word.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 09 Apr 2007, 16:47

Yi-Long wrote:I just enjoyed all the double standards that were portrayed during this situation. People were upset that Iran would capture these guys for tresspassing onto Iranian waters. "HOW COULD THEY!?". People were screaming about how the UK and the USA shouldnt tolerate this. But imagine if there were Iranian soldiers entering british or american waters/land without permission. They would be arrested and in jail as well.

You get the BBC News in Holland so you should know that the British WEREN'T trespassing in Iranian waters. The Iranians lied to justify their kidnapping of the personnel (who were apparently there on behalf of the United Nations). The Iranians almost blew it by accidentally admitting that the Brits were in Iraqi waters before changing their coordinates to suit the bogus invasion. I know our government has lied in the past regarding Iraq and is incompetant in the main but I have little doubt who was in the wrong in this case and it for once wasn't us.

After the british soldiers confessed that they were indeed in the wrong place, the western goverments (USA and British) were very quick to point out that their testimonies meant absolutely nothing because the british soldiers made them while they were in the hands of the iranians, and thus just made those statements in order to be freed or whatever.

Those false statements were made by sailors who have in effect betrayed their country to save their own skin. The official coordinates have proven that the Brits were in Iraqi waters and if the aim was to create an international incident with Iran - why didn't they fight? Why weren't the Americans on board? It's left-wing nonsense to suggest government complicity in a plot. Frankly they're not that smart. The Iranians have come out of this round the winner.

America and the UK is trying everything to make a war happen.

Rubbish. If Britain had wanted an excuse for war they had it as soon as the sailors were arrested and paraded on TV. But did they or America invade or strike? Nope. Instead Britain did fuck all except give them a jolly stern warning. America is now pissed at Britain for making the allies look bad. This was not about starting a war. It was an Iranian publicity coup. And if you stopped hating Britain for five seconds you might see that.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 09 Apr 2007, 16:49

tom2681 wrote:@Mark:
If it is a british plot, then it makes sense:
" -Evil iranians have captured our poor innocent sailors. Let's beat the shit out of them !"

But we didn't nor did the Americans? So where are you getting this from?

If it is an iranian plot, then it doesn't work so well:
" -Let's go into iraqi waters and capture some sailors. Then, let's say they were on our turf and free them after a while. That way we'll look like nice people. "

I'd say it worked beautifully for them...

romerojpg · Post by **romerojpg** » 09 Apr 2007, 17:09

Iran brainwshes their people, have you not seen their hilarious news shows! they are some of the most evil things I have ever seen, staggering crap and bile all made up and given a spin, esspecially their whole Nuke programme.

I am stunned that any country does this stuff still, no wonder so many loonies come out of the country and think the entire world is against them, its as bad as Korea.

Linn · Post by **Linn** » 10 Apr 2007, 04:16

anyone who doesn't realize that Iran is run by evil leaders hasn't been paying attention. They have been saying for decades they want to kill anyone who isn't Muslim. Their leaders say this, their religious leaders say this, their newspapers say this, etc. Their leader has a symposium on the Holocaust a while back where the entire point is that they want Muslims to believe the event never happened. Their leaders entire reason for being is to hate and justify killing. It boggles my mind that anyone can be so bitter to not see the problems facing everyone in the world. Conspiracy is great for laughs, but to be so blind to what is really the problem at this moment in our collective history is amazing. Very simply, if the US and Britain didn't want to hurt people, they could level Iran in a day. But they don't because that's never been how they've done things in their entire history. I don't see that being a problem for any of the cowards that daily blow themselves up to kill innocent men, women, and children on purpose. The idea that we need any more of an excuse to attack after Iran's years of backstabbing and killing is a joke. The problem now, is there's not a leader in the world that has the guts to truly stand up to them.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 10 Apr 2007, 08:33

Also an interesting post.
According to some of the headlines (I havent bought the papers, just seen the front pages on the news) - their time wasnt exactly tea and scones - pretty terrible actually. Faye says she thought she'd be "raped and killed" and was stripped etc - well that was what was printed anyway... its likely she was told what to write in her letters. Kidnappers often do this.
But I still don't think they should be paid for their stories, even if some money will go towards their boat, HMS Cornwall. How will it make other greiving families or surviving veterans feel? Angry, not good I bet.

saltysam · Post by **saltysam** » 10 Apr 2007, 10:12

So it's alright for the likes of Rebecca Loos to make £££ss out of shagging Beckham or coppers like Jack Stalker to make cash from newspaper columns but wrong for our service people to make a little nest egg from their genuine ordeal

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 10 Apr 2007, 11:49

Er I didn't say it was OK for Rebecca Loos either

For someone who serves their country I'm not sure it is OK...?
Now there's been a U turn and apparently they cant sell their stories, but theyve already appeared in the papers

saltysam · Post by **saltysam** » 10 Apr 2007, 12:07

hope they got a few bob 8) Andy McNab's made a career out of it

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 10 Apr 2007, 12:33

Yeah but did he try and make some dosh while he was still an SAS (?) man? Making a career out of writing novels when he's no longer serving is different, no?

Bullets 'n' Babes

The 15 captured British sailors...

The 15 captured British sailors...

At this point,