Way Of The Dragon HKL vs HLK PE vs IVL vs ZC

chenlung · Post by **chenlung** » 14 Oct 2006, 14:37

BTW I'd just like to say (no-one has noticed): The IVL menu wins for actually have options

.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 28 Nov 2006, 19:41

I've just ordered the Zoke Culture PRC so I'll add that when it arrives. It will be interesting to see how it compares to the IVL HK.

HungFist · Post by **HungFist** » 28 Nov 2006, 21:06

Isn't Zoke Culture a chinese bootleg of the IVL?

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 28 Nov 2006, 23:09

A port of the IVL yes, bootleg is not confirmed. FYI -

https://www.bulletsnbabesdvd.com/forums/ ... &start=160

For the price HK Flix are asking and considering you can't get the Bruce Lee films with the FS Print separately anywhere else (except the HKL's and then not WOTD) I'm more than willing to risk it.

At the end of the day if the quality is the same I don't give a monkeys if technically they're bootlegs. In order to get the IVL HK I'd have to buy a box when I literally just want WOTD, same for the Fox R1.

Please continue discussion in the thread I link to though.

chenlung · Post by **chenlung** » 29 Nov 2006, 01:15

I wouldn't say a bootleg of IVL directly because:

IVL doesn't include Mandarin mono (sometimes no mono at all - even for Cantonese films excluding the BL set).
Fox doesn't include Cantonese 5.1/DTS (at least for the BL films).

Could either be a mixture of these DVDs (or others) or the sources were legally provided by Fortune Star.

EvaUnit02 · Post by **EvaUnit02** » 29 Nov 2006, 01:30

I'd like to know two things about the Zoke Culture disc:-
A. Is it interlaced? (Playing it in your PC DVD-ROM drive and then pausing it during motion/action and then examining it combing would probably be the easiest way.)
B. Is the Mandarin 2.0 track a downmix of the crap Foutune Star remix?

Thanks.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 08 Dec 2006, 20:31

chenlung wrote:Could either be a mixture of these DVDs (or others) or the sources were legally provided by Fortune Star.

More likely it's just plain and simple a bootleg with Mono added. This isn't uncommon. I've seen a Thai Chi Master French DVD clone with Chinese subs added.

EvaUnit02 wrote:A. Is it interlaced? (Playing it in your PC DVD-ROM drive and then pausing it during motion/action and then examining it combing would probably be the easiest way.)

Interlaced:

http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/7584 ... 518vw7.jpg

I'm not surprised considering the R1 and HK IVL are.

EvaUnit02 wrote:B. Is the Mandarin 2.0 track a downmix of the crap Foutune Star remix?

Definitely not. It's original.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 08 Dec 2006, 20:35

My WOTD: Zoke Culture DVD arrived today:

Firstly for the price I'm willing to forgive the DVD a fair amount. I only paid £6.

Okay the slip-case shown here:

http://www.jadeleung.com/images/art/mqd80464.jpg

Is pretty nice but then you take the slip-case off and you presented with ghastly cover art beneath, it's to be expected this is a "Mainland Chinese" release. The front cover looks very similar to the original Fox R1 black and red cover, it's not pretty. Which is a stark contrast to the white and blue slip-case, the DVD picture is the same.

I was annoyed to find the actual case had lots of mark like it was worn. The rear cover is a mix of Chinese and English, and even has a paragraph talking about the BBFC and it being uncut for the first time in the UK.

So far it looks very much like a well made bootleg but still a bootleg. It even has DVD-9 on the front cover, usually a sign it's a bootleg.

Loading the disc up you're presented with a Zoke Culture animated logo and then we're shown identical menus to the HK IVL, right down to choosing English or Chinese. If it were a Mainland Chinese DVD the menus would all be in Chinese. I went into the audio menu to only be able to choose Cantonese DD5.1 or Cantonese DTS, where is the promised Mandarin Mono? This doesn't actually fit as the HK IVL has Mandarin DD5.1 too.

Starting the film I am able to choose Mandarin Mono via the remote, phew. The DVD even has lots more subtitle options such as Vietnamese, Thai and Korean not on the HK IVL. Having to choose the audio via the remote? Another sign of a bootleg.

As for the picture quality well ropey to say the least. Comparing it against my HKL PE yes skin tones look better but boy it has lots of marks all over the place, it's not as grainy by half as the HKL PE but you know what I think I prefer the HKL PE (which is still a mess). It's a hard call as neither are all that good.

The icing on the cake is the Mandarin Mono which hasn't been cleaned up and tbh only sounds better next to the 5.1 options (think voices you can barely hear and really OTT sound effects). The HKL PE while being Cantonese (which doesn't bother me anyway) sounds vastly better.

Checking out Salty's WOTD Comparison it looks very much the same as the HK IVL:

https://www.bulletsnbabesdvd.com/forums/ ... php?t=2567

Why can't they get this film right? When FOF in any version can look so great this looks a mess. I've wait 2.5 years to finally see the Fortune Star WOTD and I'm disappointed to say the least

.

Actually re-checking out Salty's comparison I now prefer the HKL PE too, neither are very good but overall the HKL PE has it. As I said earlier the only area the FS Remaster has it is in the skin tones, they look more natural there but otherwise and including all the annoying marks the HKL PE is the better one (even with it's grain).

The audio cleanup is a big one for me too. Ultimately I'd pick the HKL: PE to sit down and watch, which says it all.

I'll be updating Salty's comparison with Zoke Culture captures but I highly suspect it will look like the HK IVL. I can confirm it is a DVD-9 but only uses 5.79Gb of the DVD-9 (so only a little over the 4.7Gb of a DVD-5). I can also confirm it's half-bitrate DTS at 544Mb and low bit-rate DD5.1 at 323Mb.

All in all I'm disappointed with what I've received.

Is it a bootleg? Almost certainly. Is it a decent bootleg and a clone of the HK IVL with Mandarin and extra subs added almost certainly.

Would I recommend those who want Way of the Dragon in Mandarin Mono but don't want to fork out for the R1 Box set should pick up this Zoke Culture DVD? Grudgingly yes. You want Mandarin you put up with the inferior Picture Quality (and non-cleaned up Mandarin). To clarify it's NOT a bootleg in the same way eBay or on-the-street Asian bootlegs are (i.e - with DTS all over them, really bad cover art and DVD-5s).

Would I recommend those who want The Big Boss in Mandarin Mono but don't want to fork out for the R1 Box set should pick up the Zoke Culture of that?

Based on this yes, as it is a clone of the HK IVL so has comparable AV and at the end of the day it's cheap so who cares if technically it's a bootleg? No I don't believe the inferiority of WOTD is the bootleg factor, it's the lousy Fortune Star Remaster. The only "real" difference is dodgy cover art (which you can hide inside the acceptable slip-case).

Me I've ordered the HKL PE. Go get the HKL: PE!

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 08 Dec 2006, 22:36

Can someone who has the IVL, Fox or Spectrum WOTD tell me how many Gigabytes it is? I'm interested to hear if it's any more to the Zoke Cultures pitiful 5.79Gb.

Thanks

p.s - If anyone wants WOTD: ZC LMK.

RickyTheDragonSteamboat · Post by **RickyTheDragonSteamboat** » 08 Dec 2006, 23:23

Zoke is not a bootleg label. Read this:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20061113/en ... 1113171313

Zoke's bargain titles, like the one you purchased, are meant to combat bootlegs. For the price...I think it's a damned good disc.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 08 Dec 2006, 23:32

Interesting article thanks Ricky and welcome to the boards.

Okay not bootleg in the strictest sense then but clearly very little thought has gone into the DVD (where is Mandarin on the menu? Why is the BBFC mentioned on the cover?).

Agreed for the price it is acceptable though. I didn't say it wasn't (I even recommended it at the end of my review). TBH if Fortune Star had done a good job remastering it like they did FOF I'd be very happy (I've waited 2.5 years to own a WOTD FS HD Master). As they didn't and the HKL is better I'll be keeping that.

That said the blame for the lousy Mandarin Mono is on Zoke Culture's head. They should've remastered that at the very least. I suspect it's not better to the R1 Fox offering however.

I'll probably be keeping the Zoke Culture DVD too as I doubt anyone wants it.

RickyTheDragonSteamboat · Post by **RickyTheDragonSteamboat** » 08 Dec 2006, 23:55

Yeah, it does kinda suck how Mandarin is not selectable from the menu. I noticed that it's an exact port of the Korean disc. But at least this Zoke title came with a DVD case. I ordered Zoke's Armour Of God disc and it only came in a cardboard flap!!!

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 08 Dec 2006, 23:58

What

. Yeah good point the Spectrum has more subtitles than the IVL so it's more likely from that.

Where are you buying them from? HK Flix too?

RickyTheDragonSteamboat · Post by **RickyTheDragonSteamboat** » 09 Dec 2006, 00:07

Yeah, got WOTD from hkflix. But the Mandarin mono on the Zoke sounds like utter crap. My Fox DVD didn't sound half that bad. I have a few o these Zoke discs and from my observation they all have crappy monos.

EvaUnit02 · Post by **EvaUnit02** » 09 Dec 2006, 00:33

Cheers Brad. I may pick this up after I get the HKL PE.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 09 Dec 2006, 00:42

Could the mono tracks be downmixes from 5.1 as opposed to original mono?

And as for the image quality: I've never seen the film look anything but ugly. It was a poorly shot film - sometimes even out of focus.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 09 Dec 2006, 14:35

No worries Eva.

The thing is, sure the HKL pink isn't nice but at least they know how to encode a DVD. Fox especially should be ashamed at releasing an Interlaced DVD but IVL and ZC are no better.

I'm confident if HKL released the FS Master even with a pink tone it would look miles better. HKL on WOTD were working on a pre-FS print but with their techniques and FS print it should finally look decent.

@ Mark: https://www.bulletsnbabesdvd.com/forums/ ... 5091#65091

And: https://www.bulletsnbabesdvd.com/forums/ ... 5156#65156

Plus if it were why then not bother to include the Mandarin DD5.1? It definitely sounds Original, a down-mix would be obvious. I didn't hear any additional foley affects present in the Cantonese 5.1.

Markgway wrote:It was a poorly shot film - sometimes even out of focus.

Yeah the out of focus parts are really annoying. That's no excuse for FS not bothering to remove all the print damage though (as HKL did).

RickyTheDragonSteamboat wrote:My Fox DVD didn't sound half that bad. I have a few o these Zoke discs and from my observation they all have crappy monos.

Thanks Ricky.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 09 Dec 2006, 16:24

Oh and to add icing to the cake their are Bruce Lee war cries on the Cantonese soundtracks which are not there on the Mandarin mono.

Killer Meteor · Post by **Killer Meteor** » 09 Dec 2006, 18:05

bradavon wrote:Oh and to add icing to the cake their are Bruce Lee war cries on the Cantonese soundtracks which are not there on the Mandarin mono.

Are you talking about Way Of The Dragon? I've not heard the Mandarin track but I'm pretty damn sure that had Bruce Lee cries. The old English version had them replaced.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 09 Dec 2006, 18:20

Yes and no they're not there. Check out the Coliseum fight, in the Cantonese he yells in the Mandarin he doesn't.

The same goes for Chuck Norris in that scene. Personally I love the war cries which is one of the reasons I prefer HKL's cleaned up Cantonese.

I'm sure I heard Mark say they were added later, I forget which BL films exactly.

Killer Meteor · Post by **Killer Meteor** » 09 Dec 2006, 18:46

So what happens in the Mandarin Way? No vocals at all in the Collisieum fight?

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 09 Dec 2006, 23:31

There SHOULD be war cries on the original Mandarin track for WAY.

Bruce recorded them specially.

I'm almost certain the Fox had them.

Different than the ones found on the English dub, IIRC.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 09 Dec 2006, 23:40

Grim: Can you check please, it's a short scene. As there aren't any on the ZC DVD, except the Cantonese 5.1 tracks.

Chuck Norris even opens his mouth at one point but nothing comes out

(a screech does on the Cantonese). They're there on the HKL PE too.

There is speech from Chuck Norris (i.e - him talking before they fight) but otherwise no vocals.

Is it just TBB which has war cries added then? On the Cantonese.

Killer Meteor · Post by **Killer Meteor** » 09 Dec 2006, 23:52

You're basing your facts on the Zoke DVD? Are you sure it's genuine? As a matter of fact, wern't new Mandarin tracks recorded for the Bruce Lee titles for the Megastar DVD? I seem to recall reading that somewhere a long time ago in a galaxy far away...

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 09 Dec 2006, 23:53

Ivan Drago wrote:You're basing your facts on the Zoke DVD? Are you sure it's genuine?

Please read my lengthy review on the previous page it answers both questions. I only own one DVD of WOTD with Mandarin.

Ivan Drago wrote: As a matter of fact, wern't new Mandarin tracks recorded for the Bruce Lee titles for the Megastar DVD?

If you're asking me I've no idea, it's a mess of a DVD so I don't really care.