Despatches Debate on Muslims and Free Speech

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 24 Oct 2006, 17:00

Did anyone see this on Monday (I think?) Was it any good? I missed it.
*Waits for Mark to say - "Yes - some are threatening free speech and it was the typical C4 one sided show*

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 24 Oct 2006, 17:25

Never watched it because I know what Channel 4 are like.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 24 Oct 2006, 17:51

Told ya

Apparently it ended with the final audience poll saying 48% thought they were a threat, 52% not.
IMO people still had a right to see those cartoons, anyway they weren't done SOLELY To wind people up, but made a valid point IMO.

slasher13 · Post by **slasher13** » 24 Oct 2006, 18:25

Funny how muslims was living in the UK in the past 30 years, Islam the religion has been a part of British culture. By the way, what was the valid point Grim for those cartoons?

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 24 Oct 2006, 18:39

Through the satire they said how some extremists want to use religion as a cover for the evil they do. But thats another thread.
BTW thanks Slasher, I'm afraid I didnt see all the show.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 24 Oct 2006, 18:56

Markgway wrote:Never watched it because I know what Channel 4 are like.

The best of the 5 channels? Yep agreed, very much so.

grim_tales wrote:Apparently it ended with the final audience poll saying 48% thought they were a threat, 52% not.

Yep very one sided then.

slasher13 wrote:By the way, what was the valid point Grim for those cartoons?

Freedom of speech? I don't know I've not seen them.

slasher13 wrote:Funny how muslims was living in the UK in the past 30 years, Islam the religion has been a part of British culture.

Too true.

I didn't see it and am all for integration (more so than most I feel) but I do think people should compromise and take on laws and rules of the land they live in. Not just Muslims but all faiths and even all nationalities.

If I moved to France I'd consider it fair to be asked to remove any religious signage as that's the French law. It's a bad example as I wouldn't where religious signage but you get the point.

grim_tales wrote:Through the satire they said how some extremists want to use religion as a cover for the evil they do.

Very true.

slasher13 · Post by **slasher13** » 24 Oct 2006, 19:08

grim_tales wrote:Through the satire they said how some extremists want to use religion as a cover for the evil they do.

Ahhh I see, Sorry I didn't watch the show either

... Cheers Grim

Bradavon wrote:I didn't see it and am all for integration (more so than most I feel) but I do think people should compromise and take on laws and rules of the land they live in. Not just Muslims but all faiths and even all nationalities.

Agreed on this as well, its even says in our religion you must observe and take on the law of the land you are living, unless they are against Islam, like outlawing it completely...

Here is an interesting note on Islam in Britain from BBC Religion Website

BBC - Religion and Ethics wrote: Islam has been known in England for a long time; there are references to Islamic scholars in the Prologue to Chaucer's Canterbury Tales (1386).
Following the anti-Islamic frenzy of the Crusades, Britain became friendly with some Islamic countries. Queen Elizabeth I, for example, asked the Ottoman Sultan Murad for naval assistance against the Spaniard Armada.
The first recorded Englishman to become a Muslim was John Nelson, who converted to Islam at some point in the 16th Century.
A 1641 document refers to "a sect of Mahomatens" being "discovered here in London". There were also a few conversions to Islam during the period, and a few years later, in 1649, came the first English version of the Qur'an, by Alexander Ross.
In the 18th and 19th Centuries there were a number of converts to Islam amongst the English upper classes, including Edward Montagu, son of the ambassador to Turkey.
The first large group of Muslims in Britain arrived about 300 years ago. They were sailors recruited in India to work for the East India Company, and so it's not surprising that the first Muslim communities were found in port towns.
Ships' cooks came too, many of them from Sylhet in what is now Bangladesh. There are records of Sylhetis working in London restaurants as early as 1873.
Some Muslim sailors decided to stay in Britain and simply left their ships without going through any formal immigration procedure.
The next wave of Muslim immigration to Britain followed the opening of the Suez Canal in 1869. The increase in trade caused a demand for men to work in ports and on ships.
Most of these immigrants came from the Yemen, probably because Aden was the main refuelling stop for ships between Britain and the Far East, and many of the seamen later settled in the port cities of Cardiff, Liverpool, South Shields, Hull, and London. There are now an estimated 70-80,000 Yemenis living in Britain, who form the longest-established Muslim group in Britain.
An example is the Yemeni community of South Shields, which began at the end of the 19th century when Yemenis working as stokers on steamships moved ashore and set up boarding houses in the dock area.
The first mosque in Britain is recorded as having been at 2 Glyn Rhondda Street, Cardiff, in 1860.

BBC - Religion and Ethics

So as you can see Islam has been in British life for a long time, its not something that has recently happened

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 24 Oct 2006, 19:16

Do you think its right that (according to the show) "80%" of British Muslims believe those who insult Islam should be arrested?
One's religion/faith should never be insulted for the sake of it as its what a person believes

But IMO some things have gone too far in the other direction lately.

That note from the BBC site is interesting

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 24 Oct 2006, 19:42

Agreed on this as well, its even says in our religion you must observe and take on the law of the land you are living, unless they are against Islam, like outlawing it completely...

It just goes to show how people twist things. I presume that aspect is common knowledge for Muslims?

Of course, I'd be dead against any government banning any religion.

Here is an interesting note on Islam in Britain from BBC Religion Website

Very interesting indeed thanks Slasher. I'm going to e-mail that info around to some friends, interesting stuff. It just goes to show the Britain of old is nothing at all the same as the Britain of today.

slasher13 · Post by **slasher13** » 24 Oct 2006, 19:53

grim_tales wrote:Do you think its right that (according to the show) "80%" of British Muslims believe those who insult Islam should be arrested?

OTT I would say, Personally all religion should not be insulted regardless of what they are. Also people who do not follow a religion should not be insulted either. Yup I personally also think things are going too far from when I read that Fiona Bruce can't wear the cross... Well why not, that her religion and her right, I felt sorry for her...

Bradavon wrote:It just goes to show how people twist things. I presume that aspect is common knowledge for Muslims?

Yup def common knowledge for all muslims

Yeah the BBC Religion Website is really really good, I didn't even know that Islam was big in China

Muslims in China have managed to practise their faith in China, sometimes against great odds, since the seventh century. Islam is one of the religions that is still officially recognised in China.
Origins
It is believed that Islam began in China during the Caliphate of Uthman ibn Affan, the third Caliph of Islam.
The Caliph sent a deputation to China in 29 AH (650 CE, eighteen years after the death of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).
The delegation was headed by Sa'ad ibn Waqqas a maternal uncle of the Prophet. Sa'ad Ibn Waaqas invited the Chinese Emperor (Yung-Wei) to embrace Islam.
To show his admiration for Islam the Emperor ordered the establishment of China's first Mosque. The magnificent Canton Mosque is known to this day as the 'memorial mosque' and it still stands after fourteen centuries.
In Arab records there are only sparse records of the event, but there is a brief mention in the ancient records of the Tang dynasty. Chinese Muslims consider this event to mark the birth of Islam in China.
Trade
Many Muslims went to China to trade, and these Muslims began to have a great economic impact and influence on the country. Muslims virtually dominated the import/export industry by the time of the Sung dynasty (960-1279).

All I got to say is WOW!!!!

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 24 Oct 2006, 19:53

Also of interest from that article:

Britain's Muslim population are almost all people who immigrated to Britain in the 1950s, 60s, and 70s, or their descendants. In 1915 there were 10,000 Muslims in Britain. Now there are between 1 and 2 million British Muslims (2% - 4% of the population), and over half of them were born in Britain.

Islam is Britain's second most popular religion.

Over 600,000 of Britain's 1.5 to 2 million Muslims are active in their faith, which is a high proportion by Christian standards. Most British Muslims belong to the Sunni tradition of Islam. There are over 600 mosques in the UK and around 60 Muslim schools.

A recent surge in immigration in the wake of changes to the immigration laws in the late 1990s has had controversial results, with allegations that there has been an increase in enforced arranged marriages. Home Office figures show that the number of Pakistani men using their wife's status to gain entry to Britain increased from 1,740 in 1995 to 3,510 in 1997.

Islamic scholars say that freely given consent is as necessary for a valid Muslim marriage as for a Christian one, and the Muslim community believe that there are few compulsory marriages.

grim_tales wrote:Do you think its right that (according to the show) "80%" of British Muslims believe those who insult Islam should be arrested?

That's the problem of Islam and trying to get non-believers to accept it. It seems to me to be for a large part a very non-compromising and angry religion (and I'm putting it nicely, many wouldn't). Even if it also gives lots of joy.

Getting arrested for freedom of speech? WTF.

Yes if someone burns something sacred fine but free speech is at the core of British society and just proves unfortunately even British Muslims who have lived here all their lives don't wish to follow the laws they've grown up (and you'd wish) believing.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 24 Oct 2006, 20:03

My brother in law asked me the other day (whose VERY middle England) what's more important a school or mosque? Apparently he'd read a school was pulled down to build a mosque.

I was silent for a second and asked him "you're asking MY opinion", he said Yes. I said "both" and he said "No certainly not". To him a school must come first as it's there for education but a silly mosque what's that for?

I doubt he'd care so much if a school was pulled down for a church. I wish I'd asked him now.

Of course he was thinking in absolutes and that's always dangerous. The Britain he wishes he had doesn't exist.

Needless to say I disagree with him about most things. His opinion does convey a HUGE opinion of the rest of the country, which is worrying.

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 24 Oct 2006, 22:53

bradavon wrote:
I didn't see it and am all for integration (more so than most I feel) but I do think people should compromise and take on laws and rules of the land they live in. Not just Muslims but all faiths and even all nationalities.

If I moved to France I'd consider it fair to be asked to remove any religious signage as that's the French law. It's a bad example as I wouldn't where religious signage but you get the point.

Well, like you said, it isnt important to you, so you wouldnt really care about it and just follow that law.

However, for people who do care, it's hard for them to understand WHY they should be forbidden to wear what they like.
What harm would a cross around your neck do? What harm does a scarf ona muslim's head do to other people? Why should a jew be forbidden to wear that weird little cap?

And what's next? Forbidding tattoos, piercings, facial hear?

Like Brad, I'm not religious, and a 100% pro-immigration. In fact, i feel multi-culti has brought ME alot of good things.
But I do feel that religious people, or ANY people for that matter, should be free whatever the fuck they want to wear.
A scarf on a muslim girl's head has NEVER bothered me. And I cant understand why other people can be bothered by it, except for the fact that these people are prejudiced and scared and ill-informed.

There was a show on Dutch TV, where 3 muslim girls were the hosts, who went on the road, meeting people of different cultures and races and talk about the multi-culti and integration and adjusting and religion and all that.
These 3 girls were muslim girls, and they wore a scarf.
In the last episode of the series, they entered a train and sat down in first class. Supposedly for the 'upper-class' people. However, there was some white-trash woman sitting there as well who instantly started to verbally abuse these girls, giving them shit about their scarfs and all that. When one of the muslim girls started insulting her back, the white-trash woman started getting physical...

Anyway, point of the story is: THE PROBLEM IS THAT THE NARROWMINDED people cant accept people that are different. They have prejudice and hate and fear for everything muslim, and vent that in an aggresive manner.
Now, although I can UNDERSTAND their fear to a certain extent (the media has been bombarding western society with anti-islam news each day of the week...), I dont think we as a society should let idiots like that decide for us what we will and will not accept.
If those morons have a problem with islamic people living here, and wearing scarfs and building mosques, then tough shit for them. That's how I feel. I'd rather see the white trash narrowminded prejudiced idiots leaving, then muslims who behave well and just want to wear a fucking scarf on their head.

This goes both ways btw.
If muslim youth has a problem with jews walking around with those caps on, then those muslim youth should just fuck off.

I dont see the harm in someone wearing a cross around the neck, a cap on the head, or a scarf on the head... or whatever.
I like how our western society makes a HUGE deal about muslim women covering themselfs up decently, yet there's nowhere near the public outcry over all the 14 year old 'own' kids dressing up like sluts and whore, and having sex all over the place with everyone...
Media after 9/11 has brainwashed us into lunacy...

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 24 Oct 2006, 23:08

grim_tales wrote: Apparently it ended with the final audience poll saying 48% thought they were a threat, 52% not.

I guess it depends on whom and where you poll? But you always know where Channel 4 stand on such matters.

slasher13 wrote:Islam the religion has been a part of British culture

Just because Islam exists in Britain (and has done for a long time) doesn't make it part of British culture. What's British about Islam?

grim_tales wrote:Through the satire they said how some extremists want to use religion as a cover for the evil they do

Exactly and it's a fucking disgrace we never got to see them because of Muslim outrage. How dare they speak for me and the majority of this country.

bradavon wrote:The best of the 5 channels? Yep agreed, very much so.

All TV channels are shite. Channel 4 just happens to be pretentious, arty, left-wing shite.

bradavon wrote:If I moved to France I'd consider it fair to be asked to remove any religious signage as that's the French law.

The French have got it right (not a statement I would normally make). Religion should have no say in a secular society.

grim_tales wrote:Do you think its right that (according to the show) "80%" of British Muslims believe those who insult Islam should be arrested?

No, of course not, and it shows just how unreal these facist lunatics are. Freedom of speech used to mean something in this country. If it was up to these fuckers I'd be in jail. Or stoned to death. One of the two.

bradavon wrote:Of course, I'd be dead against any government banning any religion.

I wouldn't ban it, because as long as it's peaceful people should be free to worship whatever they choose, in private, as long as it doesn't impinge on society, but deep down I'd love it if somebody else did.

bradavon wrote:My brother in law asked me the other day (whose VERY middle England) what's more important a school or mosque? Apparently he'd read a school was pulled down to build a mosque. I was silent for a second and asked him "you're asking MY opinion", he said Yes. I said "both" and he said "No certainly not". To him a school must come first as it's there for education but a silly mosque what's that for?
I doubt he'd care so much if a school was pulled down for a church. I wish I'd asked him now.

I agree with your brother and if I was a parent I'd be well pissed off to see any religious building put in place of a school. More so a Mosque than a Church, because the percentage of Muslims in Britain is so low (3-4%) compared to Christians (60-70%?) Anyone who thinks a Mosque or a Church or a Synagogue or whatever is more important than a school is a fucking idiot.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 24 Oct 2006, 23:34

I thought you Mark of all people would be a bit more objective about these things. Just because you're not religious why does that make a school more important?

To thousands of people a Mosque and Church are deeply important. I'm not religious but have to agree.

He's my brother in law btw.

Markgway wrote:More so a Mosque than a Church, because the percentage of Muslims in Britain is so low (3-4%) compared to Christians (60-70%?)

What an absurd argument. If there is a strong presence of Islam in a community they should have a Mosque you can't base the percentage of the entire country against a particular area.

I agree with your brother and if I was a parent I'd be well pissed off to see any religious building put in place of a school.

You think by pulling down a school there's not suddenly going to be any schools left?

p.s - I guess I'm an idiot.

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 24 Oct 2006, 23:39

bradavon wrote:That's the problem of Islam and trying to get non-believers to accept it.

Well, if "trying" is a problem, then what is forcing democracy upon non-democrat people by wars?

It seems to me to be for a large part a very non-compromising religion

Not very non-compromising. Only non-compromising. Islam does not compromise one bit against the law of Allah. I don't know why non-muslims get offended by that fact, even though it doesn't hurt the law of the country they live in.

...and angry religion

Angry? How is it angry?

(and I'm putting it nicely, many wouldn't).

Awww... that's nice of you. Thanks!

As for Islam in the Far East... I am proud of the fact that the countries where Islam is being practiced very seriously are those countries that were turned into Muslim-countries by trade only and not by the sword. Malaysia, Indonesia, South Thailand, part of the Phillipines and of course in China.

Mosque in China.

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 24 Oct 2006, 23:41

Very interesting Slideshow of Islam in China. Turn on your speakers as it is narrated.
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/we ... ocker.html

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 25 Oct 2006, 01:14

@ LD: Why have you picked at my points yet left Mark's and Yi's equally controversial comments alone? Hmmm :shock:

According to Mark Mosque's should be knocked down to make way for lots more schools. He'd even love it if Islam were Banned in the UK!

thelostdragon wrote:Well, if "trying" is a problem, then what is forcing democracy upon non-democrat people by wars?

Where the fuck did that come from? When did I remotely even allude to that.

I don't know why non-muslims get offended by that fact, even though it doesn't hurt the law of the country they live in.

I didn't put it very well (is it possible to put it well without offending someone?) but I meant that it's Muslims you see in the papers all angry and bothered about something they find offensive.

Of course it's the minority opinion we see not the majority yet muslim they are. I can't remember the last time I read about a pissed off Jew, Buddist or even Christian (actually I can Christian but it's MUCH less).

The slightest wiff of even a thought of offending some Islam faith and oh boy you're in trouble. Yet if you do the same against another religion you may get a bit of annoyance but otherwise it's left as is.

Even this board has shown on many occasion images that would be deeply offensive to Christians yet it's thought of acceptable (in the name of free speech), why?

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 25 Oct 2006, 01:25

Yi-Long wrote:Well, like you said, it isnt important to you, so you wouldnt really care about it and just follow that law.

However, for people who do care, it's hard for them to understand WHY they should be forbidden to wear what they like.
What harm would a cross around your neck do? What harm does a scarf ona muslim's head do to other people? Why should a jew be forbidden to wear that weird little cap?

And what's next? Forbidding tattoos, piercings, facial hear?

I wasn't talking about tattoos or any of the other signage you cite.

I was talking about the recent case in the UK where a Muslim women expected British society to change so she could where the veil.

To the average Brit the veil is seen as a form of separation and the politicians (for once) are deeply right covering your face up 24/7 just leads to segregation (I suspect most Europeans would think the same). Just like a hoody has been banned for sometime in shopping malls but you don't hear a big hoo-har about this.

Besides I only brought it up as an example of how different races/religions need to mix and if one religion comes to another country he/she should take that laws on.

Parents are perfectly right to ask there children be taught by someone they can see. You don't have a clue if the person is angry, sad, happy, nothing.

Yi-Long wrote:A scarf on a muslim girl's head has NEVER bothered me. And I cant understand why other people can be bothered by it, except for the fact that these people are prejudiced and scared and ill-informed.

The scarf's not the issue and to compare a scarf to the veil is very different, eve if the people arguing against this like to cloud the argument by making them the same.

Yi-Long wrote:I dont see the harm in someone wearing a cross around the neck, a cap on the head, or a scarf on the head... or whatever.

Agreed but AFAIK no one has said there is harm, the veil while on paper is the same in reality it's very different.

Yi-Long wrote:yet there's nowhere near the public outcry over all the 14 year old 'own' kids dressing up like sluts and whore, and having sex all over the place with everyone...

Fair point.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 25 Oct 2006, 04:04

bradavon wrote:I thought you Mark of all people would be a bit more objective about these things. Just because you're not religious why does that make a school more important?

If you need to ask that Brad there's no point me even trying to answer...

What an absurd argument. If there is a strong presence of Islam in a community they should have a Mosque you can't base the percentage of the entire country against a particular area.

How do you define a strong presence? 100 people? 200 people? Who decides? I hear in London they're building the largest Mosque in Europe. Super.

You think by pulling down a school there's not suddenly going to be any schools left?

We need another religious institution in this country like we need a hole in the head.

p.s - I guess I'm an idiot.

You said it not me.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 25 Oct 2006, 04:11

bradavon wrote:According to Mark Mosque's should be knocked down to make way for lots more schools.

I never actually said that........ But, hell yeah.

He'd even love it if Islam were Banned in the UK!

Not just Islam. Stop making me sound like a racist. It's cheap.

Even this board has shown on many occasion images that would be deeply offensive to Christians yet it's thought of acceptable (in the name of free speech), why?

Because a Christian won't put a fatwa on your head. He'll just sing Kumbaya VERY LOUDLY.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 25 Oct 2006, 09:10

Several times on the programme they said Britain is a Christian country - huh? I thought Britain was secular? How come that woman who works for BA can't display her religion by wearing a TINY cross but its OK for other religions?

I thought the thing was they asked her to hide it (why?) and she said no.

slasher13 · Post by **slasher13** » 25 Oct 2006, 09:27

Hey Grim, yes Britain is a Christian Country, and yes everyone should wear what they want, it wasn't right for BA to say you can't where a cross? Why can't she, she is a christian, its the same with Fiona Bruce (BBC News reporter) she use to wear a cross, and no one had any problem, but then the PC bridage came in and decided it will offend people.... well no it won't

slasher13 · Post by **slasher13** » 25 Oct 2006, 09:28

Markgway wrote:
bradavon wrote:According to Mark Mosque's should be knocked down to make way for lots more schools.
I never actually said that........ But, hell yeah.

Funny I could say the same about pubs as well, there are too many, so close them down, and build schools instead

.... Double hell yeah

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 25 Oct 2006, 09:47

I didnt know Britain is Christian but agree 100% with your post Slasher