Where have all the c**ts gone?

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 14 Mar 2005, 22:16

Should we be told what we can and can't say on a public forum? I see that this one word has been "banned". But why? Who exactly is offended by it? In parts of the UK it's used commonly in a non-sexual manner. Is this another example of politically correct nonsense? Perhaps we should have a vote on whether c**ts should be allowed or not?

ICE-angel · Post by **ICE-angel** » 14 Mar 2005, 22:41

Testing... right.

Everything seems to work except for c_u_n_t which switches to "vagina". Maybe it's just a filter bit that was left on the settings by accident, or did something happen that I've missed ?

Romero what have you done this time ?

tom2681 · Post by **tom2681** » 14 Mar 2005, 22:58

I'm hoping Brad was drunk and/or mentally ill and didn't mean to ban that word.

But if he wasn't I'm outta here.

Even though that word isn't even part of my vocabulary, I simply cannot and will not tolerate a profanity filter.

Long live free speech !

ICE-angel · Post by **ICE-angel** » 14 Mar 2005, 23:32

I'm inclined to agree with you guys and having a vote seems a good idea, but ultimately it's Mordib's forum so it's up to him if he wants to have a word filter in place. But does he ? I haven't read any post from Mordib about the matter.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 15 Mar 2005, 00:33

Seems as though it was one of Bradley's "brainwaves". I guess he's now the arbitor of what can be said and what not. Fuck free speech? It certainly seems so.

tom2681 · Post by **tom2681** » 15 Mar 2005, 00:42

Fuck free speech?

Over my dead body.

I'm just waiting for the mods (ALL the mods) to say something about this issue...

...

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 15 Mar 2005, 09:55

Its' only 1 word guys - it could be worse..

BTW, I don't advocate censorship either. I wouldnt want everyone leaving because of that

While the term may be non-sexual, it is insulting, used in the manner of superbastard

I'm sure Brad can un-ban the word (he did say he went overboard the 1st time, he says sorry), but you can use the plural.. "cunts"...

degeneration · Post by **degeneration** » 15 Mar 2005, 11:24

just a little test here, as I didn't know there was any filters on... cunt

edit in: oh yeah.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 15 Mar 2005, 11:39

I think a vote is a good idea, but as I said it would be very sad if people just because they can't say the c-word. (IMO).

Mordib · Post by **Mordib** » 15 Mar 2005, 12:52

wow, where did this come from!!

you know these forums have a curse. First it hit our venerable creator Jenz, real life stopping him from keeping the site. Toge stepped in, but again the cruel hand of real life stopped him from putting all his plans in place in reasonable time, so I have taken the reigns and now I myself am facing a many little things that are consuming my time. Still I am making a front end, and I am still trying to arrange both initial and future content for it, but I am also aware I have essentially missed my self imposed targets and havent been visiting the boards as much as I should to keep an out out for things like this thread...

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so. anyway... swearing, cvnt being the word in question... This point was raised to me, and I didn't respond to it, it doesn't bother me whether people use the word or not, but I know it does bother some people, i'm happy for Brad or any of the Mods to make decisions, I figured we had quite a good crossection of people, but now its become an issue I will of course step in and hopefully come up with something that satisfies the most people possible.

So the first question is who finds it offensive enough as word to not want to visit and who finds the removal of it offensive enough not to visit? What do people think about say excessive swearing (eg angry posts which basically involve using lots of rude words to describe the person they are pissed off at)??

some things for both sides to think about-

anti the word - is it any use of the word you find offensive or just in specific situations. is the occasional use of the word enough to put you off reading something (eg I read the independant, they use exact quotes irrespective of what was said, so swear words such as fuck and cunt occasionally appear but not very often)

anti the banning of the word - in terms of freedom of speech can you actually think of anything you cant suitably describe or say without using that particular word? do you feel that if a personal attack was made on a forum member or a friend using extreme insults that it should be allowed without punishment? can you think of any alternatives you would be happier with rather than vagina??

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Basically it comes down to this. We're never all going to agree about somethings but I am hoping this is small enough to come to some agreement over without anyone leaving. The whole reason this forum owrks at all is becasue theres a good dynamic between the members. If every disagreement is taken as the be-all-and-end-all where you either win or leave then the place, or any place of this size is never going to survive.

Can we now discuss this calmly and rationally using the questions Ive posed above as a starting point??

Mordib · Post by **Mordib** » 15 Mar 2005, 12:56

on a side note I really am on msn, aim and email, If people think im ignoring something they are more than welcome to actually approach me.... in fact for any reason at all, fell free

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 15 Mar 2005, 13:41

Firstly I should apologise for banning the word without telling anyone. I mainly didn't as the word is rarely seen anyway but you're right Mark I should've posted this. So sorry for not letting everyone know first.

Back in the day Jenz also banned this word but it was never enforced.

I've never met a women who finds it not offensive. Personally I find it an offensive word but also see it's "just" a word. Having said that it's not fair to women who do find it offensive that they should put up with this word just because this is mainly a male forum. Personally I don't want this to be just a male forum!

At the end of the day if people want to swear then fine but I'd like this forum to be a place where adults can come without the use for unnecessary swearing. I realise members may think this is puritanical and banning swearing is an extreme form of censorship which I'm against, so this is just my personal opinion. Having said that it's only one word and because it's such an offensive one has no place on this forum.

Besides just use another word! Why would anyone want to use a word that offends such a large cross section of the public?

I therefore took the decision on my own accord to ban it. Mordib has entrusted the moderators to moderator in ways they see fit.

I tell you what I'll do I'll pm the moderators to see what they think if I'm out voted then I or one of us will remove this word from the banned list. That ways it's been voted in. This is purely because clearly people are annoyed about this.

Lastly I think you'll find most forums completely ban swearing (I know the DVD Forums does). I certainly don't want the rules the DVD Forums has as I feel (especially for a small forum) they've gone to far but we still need rules!

If whenever members disagree the mods/webmaster etc . . . do a u-turn then there is little point in a moderator in the first place. As I've just mention the rules here are extremely lax and it's how I want them to stay. If people want to swear to the high heavens then fine.

Tom2681 wrote:But if he wasn't I'm outta here.

Isn't that over the top Tom? I don't want you to leave.

As Mordib correctly says it seems a little over the top to me for people to threaten leaving over something as much as a word.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 15 Mar 2005, 13:53

I've added a poll. Could you all choose the relevant option.

I've added a seperate option for the mods etc . . . so everyone can see what we think. Please choose the relevant option.

tom2681 · Post by **tom2681** » 15 Mar 2005, 14:00

OK. *Calming down*

you know these forums have a curse.

Clearly, Mordib. It's like we're doomed.

I should apologise for banning the word without telling anyone.

No problem.

Personally I find it an offensive word

Let's see...
C-U-N-T:
Used as a disparaging term for a person one dislikes or finds extremely disagreeable.

Even though this word could be offensive to women, it's not aimed at women.

It's just like "fag". Granted it's an insult but for once I agree with Eminem:
It's not aimed at homosexual people.

like this forum to be a place where adults can come without the use for unnecessary swearing.

I thought this forum was a pretty clean place until now.
Where do you find lots of swearing (apart from this thread

) ?

Why would anyone want to use a word that offends such a large cross section of the public?

I would never use it, but I'd like to have the option !

if I'm out voted then I or one of us will remove this word from the banned list.

If not, then one of us will pack his bags and go to places where swearing is allowed.
We have enough problems with racism-war-unemployment-etc...
The internet is one of the last places where you can say what you actually think.

P.S.:

I therefore took the decision on my own accord to ban it.

AARRGHHHH !
"TigerCage vs Mister Gil" flashback

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 15 Mar 2005, 14:05

Let's wait to see the outcome of the poll.

As far as Tigercage vs. Gil. I was with Tigercage on that one.

p.s - I've e-mailed Nils, Grim and Mordib to ask for their opinion. I'm unable to pm them as it's not working. Nils and Grim run the forum as much as I do.

ICE-angel · Post by **ICE-angel** » 15 Mar 2005, 14:19

I'm sure there are many ways of insulting someone if you want to anyway, with or without using so-called swear words, the same as I'm sure there are many instances on which the same so-called swear words could be used without any insult being meant... but I'd rather not enter that discussion.

Might I suggest that instead of making the poll specifically about one word, we do one about the use of a word filter ? Right now it's c_u_n_t , next week it could be something else and we'd better take the whole issue out of the way and move on.

tom2681 · Post by **tom2681** » 15 Mar 2005, 14:30

I'm sure there are many ways of insulting someone if you want to anyway

Exactly. Every single word you've used in your first reply to this thread was way more insulting than "c**t".
EDIT: Not anymore now that you've deleted them.

It's funny that we should be arguing about this word in particular when there are much much worse insults available.

tom2681 · Post by **tom2681** » 15 Mar 2005, 14:35

Isn't that over the top Tom? I don't want you to leave.

As Mordib correctly says it seems a little over the top to me for people to threaten leaving over something as much as a word.

It's not about the word, it's a question of principles.
And I'm not "threatening" to leave. It's not like I'm needed in this forum.

I'm just saying that my principles do not allow me to accept a profanity filter...
Which is ironic considering that I hate swearing and I'm actually very polite.

Mordib · Post by **Mordib** » 15 Mar 2005, 14:46

I think you are needed, you proved to me that I hadnt dreamed cutey honey the motion picture...

And thanks Brad for explaining your decision, sorry i didnt post earlier to make my stance public.

I've been through this exact disagreement when I worked over at debate, the solution there (and Im not saying it would necessarily work here) was that there was no swear filter but mods would come in an minimise the most gratuitous of posts. in reality it only happened a couple of times, once when one person was directly attacking another forum member using unecessary profanity and once when someone came on drunk being generally offensive for now apparent reason (dont worry Bisc, it wasnt you

).

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 15 Mar 2005, 15:02

I wouldn't say Tom isn't needed, I like his contributions and more faces help make the forum friendlier and a nicer place to be, IMO

Re: Gil v Tigger, I didnt particularly like Gil's style at all, he was rude and obnoxious to almost everyone, so I was with Tigger on that one. However I think he was a bit OTT in banning him like he did.

ICE-angel · Post by **ICE-angel** » 15 Mar 2005, 15:17

Mordib, that last post from you pretty much hits the essential IMO.

Words are just words and they can be turned by people to be either an insult or something completely innocent, or demonstrative, or playful. Having them replaced by a filter really won't solve any existing problems between people. Instead, problems and situations must be dealt with case by case, and users who are repeatedly found to be unable to express themselves without insulting people must be dealt with accordingly.

In the end, such problems aren't with specific words themselves, but with those who use them, and more to the point, how they use them.

As a small practical demonstration of this point and having been a BnB'er for years like some of you, I believe I can safely state that the only really problematic user we've had along, and who Grim just mentioned, never needed to use any so-called "swearing" per se to arouse the commotions he did.

tom2681 · Post by **tom2681** » 15 Mar 2005, 15:28

problems and situations must be dealt with case by case

And it shouldn't be too hard.

There are 105 members on this board.
Only 10 or 12 of these members post on a regular basis.
That's about 10 posts per day.

I think that 3 moderators is enough to check 10 posts per day to make sure that people aren't insulting each other.

As Ice said, "C-U-N-T" and "c**t" is just like "FUCK" and "F**K".
Replacing it with "Vagina" or putting asterisks won't make it less insulting.

ICE-angel · Post by **ICE-angel** » 15 Mar 2005, 16:09

By the way, this being a poll regarding the general interest of everyone using the forum, wouldn't it make sense to link it from the "announcements" and/or "Future of BnB" sections or something to the same effect ? I'm not sure if a lot of the current 100-odd registered members will happen to read a thread called "Where have all the c_u_n_t_s gone" located in the "Anything Goes" sub-forum.

It might be important to gather a maximum of votes to get a clear idea of what the forum population in general wants, as opposed to let the decision to half a dozen people.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 15 Mar 2005, 17:11

bradavon wrote:The thing is I've yet to find a women who doesn't think of it as an insulting word to them or women kind. The fact it's original intention wasn't meant as such is no longer relevant IMO.

But who decided that you should be the one to speak up for all women? And even IF many/most women find it offensive that still doesn't justify a ban. Considerate posters will use the term infrequently or not at all. But to me FORCED not to say the word is censorship and I don't approve. It's PC bullshit.

I specifically remember Jenz saying this word was banned. It's just he was never around to enforce it.

Jenz has gone. This is no longer his forum. You want to run every decision by him?

As far as Tigercage vs. Gil. I was with Tigercage on that one.

And I wasn't.

I like the "while we wait" censoring of my original title without any hint of irony whatsoever!! 8)

Mordib · Post by **Mordib** » 15 Mar 2005, 17:28

to clarify why at this point the word is still censored, i rely and trust any of the mods to make decisions without having to ask permission everytime. If people disagree with the decision then they are more than welcome to raise the issue as has happened in this case and as long as it doesnt infringe on mine or the sites legal standing I am more than happy for it to be discussed and the decision changed if that is the end result of the discussion. I won't however ever reverse the action of a mod until this has happened, as I dont believe in reacting based on an initial panic.

I hope this makes sense to everyone, i recognise that no system of management is perfect, I'm just trying to make the system work as fairly to everyone as possible.

m.

Bullets 'n' Babes

Where have all the c**ts gone?

Should the word c**t be banned?

Where have all the c**ts gone?

oh my god its another mordib essay!!