Immigration: Have we got it right in Europe?

[bradavon]

Immigration: Have we got it right in Europe? Should we adopt a USA style immigration policy?

My point of view:

I saw a really interesting news piece on BBC News 24 the other day that said since 9/11 Europe has had fifty times the security attempts the USA has had.

America leads the collation in Iraq, Afghanistan and is at the fore-front of the so-called war of terror.

Why are Muslim Americans not siding with Al-Quada as some British Muslims are? A higher percentage of Americans follow Islam than Jedisism, you'd like this would lead to internal security threats yet all the bombers/suicide attempts to date are from non-Americans/outsiders.

The news article made the point that American Muslims are seen as very much American, they fit in (and they believe they're American). Why is this not the case in Europe? Why do we have so much hatred/fear for immigration?

In America it's seen as normality, Europe a problem.

Now I've visited America a few times the point is so true. You see (by an large) Black, White, Hispanic, Muslim, Jews you name it populations all intermingling and generally getting along. This sure as hell doesn't happen in Britain.

The fact is it's this "keeping immigrants as outsiders" which has led to some British born Muslims siding with Al-Quada.

Sure the American Government is far from perfect but IMO they've most definitely got immigration right. America's whole existence is based on immigration, should we adopt some American style immigration here?

You'd think America would be a much greater target but in reality it's Europe which is less safe (IMO). Britain alone has had far more security attacks/attempts since 9/11!

[thelostdragon]

Why is this not the case in Europe?

Europe is just an illusion. THE Europe does not exist. What exists is Germany, France, Britain, Netherlands, Sweden, Finnland, Denmark, Norway, Greece, Spain, Italy etc etc.

Whenever a German person meets a Spanish person for example, he regards him as an exotic person and not a European fellow citizen. In the US it doesn't matter if you are from the hot deserts in the South West or from the cold North. You have about the same school education, based on the very same principles. Heck, even the language is the same, which plays a major role in such a thing. In Europe you have more than a dozen of different languages. There just is NO such thing as a European Union or a European Unity. Not a social one.

[Markgway]

Britain has a welcome mat for immigrants (only a fraction of whom might be terrorists, it should be said) and has made sure everyone wants to come here. Why? Benefits, legal aid, housing, etc. All the things it's so hard to get for free in other countries. Britain must be the only country in which it's easier to stay than be deported -- and the few who are deported are usually the ones who deserve to stay. It's seriously screwed up. Forget official government figures. Actual estimates recognise that up to a couple of million illegals are here in this country and the authorties don't know where they are? And if they did they'd probably be unable to get rid. America takes it's security very seriously -- but their main problem comes from Mexico. Britain has very few Mexicans to worry about. American Muslims see themselves as just that. Americans and Muslims. British Muslims all-too-often view themselves as Muslims who happen to live or have been born here. But they have only one tangible loyalty. America is a melting pot. Since the Mayflower it's been a mix of cultures and races all of whom have joined together to become American. Britain has no such collective. The English are made to feel ashamed of their own flag for Christ's sake -- mostly by their own people. The liberal elite have in the last thirty years managed to destroy the nation that Britain was. Watch any post-war British film and you'll see how things have changed. I don't mean in terms of anyone's colour but the sense of being a collective. Britain has lost it's pride and is now scared of being British -- like it's a dirty word. The Americans simply can't understand us. Islam is the religion of a mere 3% of Brits but you would never know it from the influence it constantly shows. This is amplified by the self-segregation of minority cultures (mainly Asian) in sections of England. For whatever reason they cut themselves off from the indiginous populace and turn sectors into ghettos (there are places even the Police won't go because they know the stakes). You arrest one Asian you have a potential riot on your hands. This is what the odious BNP exploit -- and are becoming increasingly successful doing. If Britain was British and Asians saw themselves as British not outsiders or transients then this problem would be significantly reduced and the BNP would go back to being worthless.

[Yi-Long]

Yeah... I think the difference is that in America, as soon as your an American citizen, you are CONSIDERED by 99% of the people to be an AMERICAN first, and muslim, african-american, asian whatever second.
While in Holland even 3rd generation immigrants are still being regarded as outsiders, as not REAL Dutch people, as muslims first, arabic second, not as dutch at all... by many of the population. So there is no 'we' culture in Holland. Not that I feel that way, but it seems many do...

I feel the main problem with immigration in Holland is that a part of the populations just won't ACCEPT immigration. So they will always keep thinking in 'we' and 'theys'... No matter how well adjusted and well schooled my girlfriend is, others will still see her as chinese first.
I'm thinking that in America that problem is slightly less. There seems to be less dividence among different groups. Sure there will be certain groups that will dislike and maybe hate eachother, but they do accept eachother as being 'american'.

[grim_tales]

Why is another nationality put first then when talking about America? African-American, Korean-American, Chinese-American, whatever Not that there's anything wrong with that You're right Brad, different cultures in America seem to get along, the country is so prosperous due to immigrants (same as Australia).
On the other hand, in America the original settlers/immigrants drove out the native people (Indians) and treated them very badly (again, another parallell with Australia when you look at how Aboriginies are treated).

[Yi-Long]

Immigration has brought me and Grim lots of asian chicks to drool and fantasize over: IMMIGRATION FUCKING RULEZ, BIATCH!

[bradavon]

Europe is just an illusion. THE Europe does not exist. What exists is Germany, France, Britain, Netherlands, Sweden, Finnland, Denmark, Norway, Greece, Spain, Italy etc etc.

Fair point. Now please answer the question: Immigration: Have we got it right in Germany?

I completely agree with you btw and am just wondering if you take it down the country level what do you think.

What is interesting despite I agree there is no EU in the sense we're led to believe Europeans do share many common values and thinking. For example: immigration. There's something in that.

Whenever a German person meets a Spanish person for example, he regards him as an exotic person and not a European fellow citizen.

This is how most Americans think it is

Seriously I can see it happening but let's face it the EU is less than 50 years old, it's still a baby.

I wouldn't say a fellow European but personally I recognise I share similar values and ways of thinking I wouldn't necessarily share with someone from say Asia.

Why is another nationality put first then when talking about America?

The question is not why is another nationality put first it's why is American put second. I'm Iraqi then British; I'm an Iraqi-American.

(same as Australia).

I'm afraid.

90% of Australians are white and originate from Europe (it's something like 90%), the indigenous population of which I think there are only about 2% DO NOT mix with the White population period. Australia is THE perfect example how immigration does not work. Purely based on immigration Australia is a complete failure.

Eva is of course much better to comment but my experience was the Maori of New Zealand on the other hand is a much bigger success.

On the other hand, in America the original settlers/immigrants drove out the native people (Indians) and treated them very badly (again, another parallell with Australia when you look at how Aboriginies are treated).

True but that's (mostly) history.

The nationalities we're talking about aren't Native American.

Since the Mayflower it's been a mix of cultures and races all of whom have joined together to become American. Britain has no such collective.

Very true and this is the underlying reason why it's different.

I completely agree in the last 50 years (since WW2 ended really) the feeling of being a collective Britain has been completely lost but you know what I'm willing to bet even then if you weren't White British you weren't really British.

For whatever reason they cut themselves off from the indiginous populace and turn sectors into ghettos

Very interesting words you use there Mark which run through most of your post. The Ghettos you cite are very much there in America but they're not Ghettos they're communities. No other difference except one is mixed the other not.

There are huge Ghettos all over parts of America yet they aren't seen as a concern, they're something to celebrate.

I'm not picking at you in particular just an interesting under feeling that runs throughout the country and I suspect Europe (to be frank Western Europe).

If you ask me it's the lack of immigration of which your comments make me believe you're at least partially against (and thousands of others) that has made us a target and a less welcoming place.

It does surprise me few see this.

[bradavon]

Another area we've not brought up is American brainwashing. A strong word but a valid one I feel.

From birth Americans are taught to believe in what it is to be American. It's compulsory each morning to pledge your allegiance (without fail) to the country while at High School and the national anthem is played.

I was shocked to hear my American friend speak of this like it's nothing odd. American flags are plastered over the Mid-West.

Personally this level of patriotism I find deeply disturbing it leads to people following their country without any thought whether what they're doing is right.

How many Dutch, German or British Flags do you see on a daily basis?

I don't want to go off topic on American based subjects but this aspect I think is related, to the bigger picture.

[grim_tales]

Interesting that you say Australia has been a complete failure immigration wise, you say the white population does not mix with Aboriginies. Do other immigrants mix with each other?
According to Bill Bryson in "Down Under" Australia is "one of the most multi-cultural countries on Earth". Hmm. Before 1970, there was a "White Australia" policy implemented by the Minster for Immigration, Arthur Calwell in the 1950's (I think). Non-whites were allowed to be kept out, they were required to pass a literacy test.
Back to America, sadly, look at how black people were treated earlier this century, expecially in the South, as 2nd/3rd class citizens due to segregation and prejudice. Thats' appalling.
Brad I think you see more Dutch/German flags in those countries than you do English/British flags over here. As Mark says we've somehow been made to feel ashamed of the English/British flag. Not all patriotic people are racist

[slasher13]

As Mark says we've somehow been made to feel ashamed of the English/British flag. Not all patriotic people are racist

Personally I think that was down to late 70's, early 80's when Combat 18/NF adopted the british flag to make it their slogan, and thus now seeing it reminds not of English/British flag but of racist groups. If they hadn't had done that, it would def be another story. I'm talking about the Union Jack Flag here

[grim_tales]

I see. Its the same with the English (St. George) flag also from what I hear.

[slasher13]

I see. Its the same with the English (St. George) flag also from what I hear.

Really!!!, I never knew this, from my experience growing up it only been about the union jack really.

[Yi-Long]

Here in Holland the kinhead youth use the national flag on their black bomberjacks, and it signifies their hatred for foreigners (or 'love' for a white Holland').

Whenever I see a guy (or guys) like that I always make a 'glare of death' to them, or when I'm with someone I just speak out a bit louder to that friend something like 'let's pass these ugly suckers'.

I fucking can't stand idiots like that. I feel THEY are also a big problem of the so-called 'immigration-problem'.

About patriotisme: I'm just very very negative about Holland. I would NEVER hang out a Dutch flag, unless we would win the WC with football or something (like I said, never). Holland sucks in too many ways to be patriotic about it. I'm not gonna show my respect for a country that steals it's citizens blind, fucks up in all departments, and is making things worse instead of better. Let alone our shamefull history.

[grim_tales]

I see. Its the same with the English (St. George) flag also from what I hear.

Really!!!, I never knew this, from my experience growing up it only been about the union jack really.

I don't know, I think with the English flag it mainly seems to come out when the World Cup is on or something like that, so maybe people associate it with holligans.
You would often never know from the news when its' St. George's Day, the English don't celebrate it. St. Patricks Day is observed over here but many see it as an excuse to get pissed I guess

[Markgway]

I'm not much of a patriot as there's really little I like about Britain. Sometimes I think it's too late for Britain and we would all be better served going our own ways and splitting into four seperate countries: England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland, with seperate laws. Disband the monarchy or let England keep it. I doubt I would've felt as bitter as this had I lived as an adult 20-30 years ago.

The reason I used the word ghettos is because communities sounds nice and welcoming, which the worst of these areas are certainly not. There are several large cities in England that have Asian ghettos where it's strictly no go for whites, blacks and police. It's not immigration that breeds contempt among the indiginous populace, but isolation and alienation. We you see someone walking toward you on a street who dresses different than you, speaks another language, and doesn't think the same culturally and religiously, that's bound to create friction and distrust - on both sides. If you shoehorn in a foreign culture, it leads to the very problems I speak of. Too many immigrants don't think of themselves as British and show little desire to be part of a greater community. I happen to agree with Trevor Philips about the perils of multi-culturalism. For the time it's been active policy the gap between immigrants and "British" has become everwide and shows no signs of reversing. If you allow immigrants to set their own rules why should they adapt? Many Muslims cry out for Sharia law to be applicible to them in Britain as they see that as their law not British law. It wouldn't surprise me if the lily-livered lefties considered it. Would I go to a Middle Eastern country and demand Scottish Law? Would I fuck? This is not some anti-foreigner rant as I have no axe to grind with any race. I just don't like what's happened to Britain and feel it's worth voicing an alternate opinion.

[bradavon]

I'm not much of a patriot as there's really little I like about Britain. Sometimes I think it's too late for Britain and we would all be better served going our own ways and splitting into four seperate countries: England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland, with seperate laws.

Ireland is already a separate country but I suspect you meant Northern Ireland of which it's stuck as the Irish (in Eire) sure don't want it back.

I suspect many Welsh and Scottish would agree but I'm not sure many English would. It's simply not an issue like it is for the Scotts and Welsh (and I suspect mostly Scotts tbh).

I don't honestly see what it would achieve bar some national pride I guess. Like I said most English don't have an opinion on it either way.

It's not like I'm particularly for or against it as it's not I've spent much time on. That said I would say it's a shame after all this time to disband when bar some "living the past" differences we all pretty much think alike anyway. That's not explained very well sorry.

I still don't understand tbh Mark why you feel so bitter. It's not like the English are killing your children or raping your woman 8) but clearly it's an issue for you, enough to even take a subject which has nothing to do with separating Britain up into a discussion on Immigration.

I would agree to disband the Monarchy and over the years I can see this becoming more popular as the old well die. I can only see two groups who like the Monarchy:

1. The over 60s
2. Tourists

Boy we're going off topic.

Disband the monarchy or let England keep it.

What makes you think for a second most English people want the monarchy more than you do?

I doubt I would've felt as bitter as this had I lived as an adult 20-30 years ago.

I bet you'd have had stronger feelings tbh.

It's not immigration that breeds contempt among the indiginous populace, but isolation and alienation.

Definitely which is at the heart of my thread but the two go hand in hand. They're connected at the root.

We you see someone walking toward you on a street who dresses different than you, speaks another language, and doesn't think the same culturally and religiously, that's bound to create friction and distrust - on both sides.

Just speaking for myself I'd disagree. Maybe some minor unease but distrust no way. It's sad you think this way but fair enough I guess.

I happen to agree with Trevor Philips about the perils of multi-culturalism. For the time it's been active policy the gap between immigrants and "British" has become everwide and shows no signs of reversing. If you allow immigrants to set their own rules why should they adapt?

That's an interesting point because when you consider, coming back to America subtly but forcefully rules are forced against immigrants, coming back to the pledge of allegiance issue.

[bradavon]

Interesting that you say Australia has been a complete failure immigration wise, you say the white population does not mix with Aborigines. Do other immigrants mix with each other?

That's hard to say when the White/Aborigine divide stood out so strongly, but to answer I'd say no more so than the UK.

Sure it's far from perfect but I just found America for immigrants mixing and feeling accepted is pretty much unique on this earth.

But who are you referring to when you say "other immigrants"? I'd strongly say neither the Aborigines or White Australians are immigrants. It's been too long.

According to Bill Bryson in "Down Under" Australia is "one of the most multi-cultural countries on Earth".

That depends what you compare it against. Compared against Japan (and many other parts of the Far East) definitely but USA and Europe.

Back to America, sadly, look at how black people were treated earlier this century, expecially in the South, as 2nd/3rd class citizens due to segregation and prejudice. Thats' appalling.

True but you're citing history I'd like to discuss today.

As Mark says we've somehow been made to feel ashamed of the English/British flag.

I think many English people through our grandparents feel guilty for our (recent) colonial history. Today we feel very uncomfortable at colonialism but it's only 30 odd years since it was very much in us.

Not all patriotic people are racist

Who said they were?

Personally I think that was down to late 70's, early 80's when Combat 18/NF adopted the british flag to make it their slogan, and thus now seeing it reminds not of English/British flag but of racist groups. If they hadn't had done that, it would def be another story. I'm talking about the Union Jack Flag here

I've heard of the "Combat 18/NF" sorry so not here.

It's the Union flag btw, you can't call it the Union Jack unless you're at see 8)

[Shen]

For a while now i've been thinking of an answer to this question, the answer is difficult, and i am pretty indifferent to the influx of people, and the number of people going out...

immigration is a hot topic, however, i have little problem with it. ok yeah some people come to the UK purely for its benefits, housing etc etc. and thats not so right, but the peopel that come here i actually dont really have a thing for or against. maybe im just used to being in a multi-cultural society....in the few miles around me there is a wide range of different people, muslims, sikhs, hindus, poles, chinese, japanese, africans, and other small groups of people from wherever. im fully used to living in a place where people speak a wide variety of languages, and it doesnt bother me at all. multi-culturalism for me i find really interesting, and fun to live amongst.


personally i think we should have a world where people can move about freely, there shouldnt be a "them and us" there should only be a "we" the borders and countries for me are only illusions, the people inside, are just that, people, in essence the same as me or you. so i dont really care if they come to the UK or if they go to germany, or america, or wherever they decide to go...for me we are all the same. we may speak diferent langauges, dress diferently and have different faiths but in the end we are all just people... new worldy idea? maybe, but i dont see the need for the divisions of them and us...

[Mordib]

its an interesting one about would you go to a middle east country and expect them to consider laws for you based on your homeland. If you got done for something that wasnt illegal here and wouldnt be logically illegal in our culture and were going to get your hands chopped off for it then youd probably want your laws to be taken into consideration, and they do, if you get done for something where theres a death penalty or other physical punishment then the uk government will step in and negotiate you a sentance that doesnt involve torture and death. we call this human rights rather than our laws but theyre are just positive laws, they dont ocure naturally.

as for imigrationin the uk, im a big fan of the idea that we need aliens toattackthe earth, make people forget their petty duiifferences. I dont think british immigration is sorted and i dont believe such a thing is possible, there will always be problems and friction, they key is to keep it within acceptable limits and we suck at that.

[grim_tales]

Brad you mean "Compared to Japan but NOT USA and Europe.."?
One thing I notice also is that many black Americans refer to themselves as "African-American" - nowt wrong with that I just wonder why. Were their ancestors African?

[Kurgan]

Yes, for the most part. A lot of ancestors of black people in America were fro Africa, as they'd been brought over as part of the slave trade.
Various people have different opinions on this, but as far as I'm concerned, a person can call themselves what they like.

[Markgway]

Ireland is already a separate country but I suspect you meant Northern Ireland of which it's stuck as the Irish (in Eire) sure don't want it back.

There's an argument for Ireland becoming whole again.

I suspect many Welsh and Scottish would agree but I'm not sure many English would. It's simply not an issue like it is for the Scotts and Welsh (and I suspect mostly Scotts tbh).

The Welsh and the N.Irish have their own assemblies. The English don't care because most think of England and Britain as one and the same. Also the English in power lack national pride. Can you imagine a Scotsman criticizing his own flag?

I still don't understand tbh Mark why you feel so bitter. It's not like the English are killing your children or raping your woman 8) but clearly it's an issue for you, enough to even take a subject which has nothing to do with separating Britain up into a discussion on Immigration.

I'm not bitter at England but at Britain as a whole. The way it's developed (or regressed) in the last 30 years. I suppose England bears the brunt purely because that's where central government is. But look at it this way: if we split into four republics you English wouldn't have to put up with your country being run by Scots anymore.

I would agree to disband the Monarchy and over the years I can see this becoming more popular as the old well die. I can only see two groups who like the Monarchy:

1. The over 60s
2. Tourists

Yeah, but that's hardly a good enough reason, in my opinion. After the Queen passes the crown should be disbanded. Let her live out her reign.

What makes you think for a second most English people want the monarchy more than you do?

Lol, maybe they don't? But the monarchy (as it is) always seems very English.

Just speaking for myself I'd disagree. Maybe some minor unease but distrust no way. It's sad you think this way but fair enough I guess.

Why is it sad? Most countries in the world expect immigrants to adopt to their ways of living. Why should Britain be any different? It's actually less the immigrants themselves that I'm condemning, but the white liberals who run this country with an open door free-for-all policy that's backfired and now no one knows how to fix it?

[romerojpg]

Yup they were suposed to let in 14 thousand imigrants over the last few years.
They let in between 400 thousand and 800 thousand!!!!!!!!!! they dont even know the exact figure, it could be over a million if you go by some figures!

Think of all the benifits they are getting, my tax, my cash! and think of how many of them are criminal scum! even Sadman Husaines family came over here and a load of his mass mudering generals!!!!! and what do they get, free housing and benifits! if that doesnt show you how messed up the UK is, then nothing will.

There are not enuff jobs to start with as we are selling out jobs in mass to the cheap labour abroad for outsourcing.

I loose my job soon to overseas labor, its a joke and I will be on the picket lines striking my arse off to get this on the news!
I suposed to work for the NHS, thats the National Health Service of the UK, not the Indian Health Service! Way to go UK.

Let more in so they can steal more jobs and make it harder for me to get one. I cannot aford a house, yet a lot of imigrants (illegal or legal) get them! for free Thousands were housed in our area with their famalies, they kicked out all the people who lived there previously!!! and gave the Polish the homes! no wonder it creates tension and violence when a council does that and you can understand why some homes were firebombed.

They cannot even do the jobs they are here for compared to the solid UK workers, bus drivers for instance we have hundreds of Polish drivers, most of them cannot even speak english, so how are they suposed to understand a word I say? they dont and they cannot even drive, the amount of accidents they are causing is massive just today one crashed into the curb at about 50 MPH as the idiot left the bus on the low setting and bang we hit a high curb. Dont get me started on the way they count the cash for 15 minutes before the bus rolls, as they make so many mistakes with your change!

Shut the doors and stop letting them in I say, if they are fleeing persicution they should go to the nearest country, not travel thousands of miles over here for some of them to beg on the streets and be criminals like they were before.

The doors open to more countries soon in the EU, way to go keep it up UK. Theres acceptable imigration, then theres the insanity the UK is facing and has been facing over the past 5 years. Stick them in mass camps like there are dotted around the UK! now theres a joke, they are like prison camps, but in the countryside! out the way

UK stinks like shit, its all the goverments fault.

[Kurgan]

There are not enuff jobs to start with as we are selling out jobs in mass to the cheap labour abroad for outsourcing.

That's capitalism at its finest

[bradavon]

Brad you mean "Compared to Japan but NOT USA and Europe.."?

I did indeed. Snickers bar in the post.

One thing I notice also is that many black Americans refer to themselves as "African-American" - nowt wrong with that I just wonder why. Were their ancestors African?

You know what that one really makes no sense to me. I'd even find the statement insulting if I was African.

The ONLY thing a Black American has in common with an African is their skin colour, and then not always (considering many Africans are literally black, and most Black Americans are not).

The language, clothes, way of thinking are all completely different. They spend in an hour/day what Africans wouldn't get in a month.

Sure historically many (but certainly not all) Black American originated from Africa but my god that was centuries ago. Today it's just a word. Which would be fine if certain sectors of Black American culture didn't refer to the millions of Africans in Africa as their brothers. They can't even speak their language.

There are not enuff jobs to start with as we are selling out jobs in mass to the cheap labour abroad for outsourcing.

Bollocks. The truth is immigrants do jobs we wouldn't do. They're in reality needed for our economy to survive.

That is a fact.

The doors open to more countries soon in the EU, way to go keep it up UK.

It really annoys me how people in the UK think this is just a UK issue, total rubbish. Another fact, as many migrants go to France (many African countries French is the native language), Spain, Portugal and so on.