WTF? The whole "Mark vs. Islam"-thing...

[thelostdragon]

Hey,

decided to take this into another topic.

Mark's comment hardly "offends one Muslim" as he puts it, but it rather generalises Muslims as people who blow themselves up. Call them terrorists or whatever.

However... only because I am offended by this generalisation, does not mean anybody should get either banned or be sent educational or instructional PMs.

Toge, I appreciate you wanting to protect the minority that slasher, Kurgan and me are on this forum in terms of belief, but remember that this is not the first argument I have been having with Mark about the same issue in one way or the other and we always got along (kind of) in the end.

By banning or to call someone to account for offending me, has the opposite effect of your intent. It creates an even worse attitude towards Muslims. What they will think is that only one Muslim has to whine a bit and everything will be done in order to satisfy him. I'm not willing to become the target of such thoughts. I know people would think like that, as this is exactly what I think about Jews in Germany. Due to the German's guilt complex of WW2, they treat Jews as if they were Gods, doing everything to ease their minds. I don't want to be in such a position.

So please let things run for a few days. Mark and I even discussed topics for longer than a month. Every once in a while one would feel insulted or whatever, but these were things we managed to take care of ourselves. If things get really bad, like Nazism or so, then by all means interfere.

[Kurgan]

Sorry, either I'm in a silly mood, or I'm just going crazy. Perhaps both...

That last sentence had me laughing: "If things get really bad, like Nazism or so..."
Somehow, I think we might be able to control ourselves before it gets anywhere near that level

[thelostdragon]

That last sentence had me laughing: "If things get really bad, like Nazism or so..."

Yeah, it was meant to kinda brighten the party up. Seems that I was successful in that.

[Yi-Long]

I agree with LD. Didnt want to mix in on the thing on the other thread, but he has worded it exactly as I feel about the subject.

When I first read Mark's comment my first thought was simply:'some people never learn' (as in Mark continueing to mix up the word muslim and terrorist)
I felt it was a dumb remark, and ofcourse offensive, but we all know Mark has mixed it all up before and we know his real opinion about all this (that not all muslims ARE terrorist lunatic mad bombers... in fact, I think not even 50% of the muslims are... * )

It goes too far to give him a 'strike' or threatening with a ban etc. It's unnecessary. As I often said, we all know eachother pretty well on the forum, and our views will differ from time to time and we will feel offended at times...

Big fucking deal. We're grown-ups. (except ofcourse for Toge, who at this point and time I'd like to congratulate on finally having lost all his baby teeth and now is ready to step into that exciting yet occasionally scary world which is called 'adulthood')

* = It's a joke ofcourse, I've been watching too many Stephen Colbert.

"Look... I just think that Rosa Parks is over-rated"

[tom2681]

...does not mean anybody should get either banned...

Mod-Tom agrees with you; and disagrees with Toge (for what it's worth).

This whole situation started when Toge threatened and pm'd Mark. I know you and Mark can get into weird and politically incorrect arguments, and I have no problems with it.

@LD:
I remember I accidentaly offended you a few months ago (making a reference to muslim religion), that's why I asked Mark to be more careful about his wording.

[grim_tales]

I think most of us knew what Mark meant (I did) but it was badly worded. Thats no reason to ban him. I agree with Tom and Yi-Long
But In Mark's/other people's eyes, how is this joke different from say, Eva's rather tasteless Mario animation or Yi's Olympics joke? They were jokes/satire that could be seen as darkly comic or tasteless, both not condoned considering the climate.
But we shouldnt ban them Just like Mark shouldnt be banned.

[thelostdragon]

But In Mark's/other people's eyes, how is this joke different from say, Eva's rather tasteless Mario animation or Yi's Olympics joke?

Only because no one felt offended by those animations doesn't mean offenses that do offend people should be taken lightly.

[grim_tales]

Mark and I felt offended by them, and Yi was lambasted for his joke about the Olympics.

[thelostdragon]

OK, you felt offended. I can't remember if you told us here, but if not you should have as it is your right. Just as I do when I see generalisations of Muslims etc.

[grim_tales]

IIRC I did say the joke was offensive/inappropriate and put a smiley or something.

[thelostdragon]

Hmmm, it seems as if you weren't offended that much really then. If you were offended really badly, wouldn't you have started an argument? At least that's what I do when I feel really offended.

[tom2681]

Grim ? Start an argument ?

[Yi-Long]

Ehmmm... I forgot about my olympics-joke? What did I say? What was the joke?

[grim_tales]

Tom,



Well I said the joke was offensive or in bad taste, I dont start arguments.

The joke was after the London bombings on 7 July (this was the day after London was awarded the Olympic Games of 2012) - "Jeez, those French must be really hurt!"

[Yi-Long]

Ow yeah... good joke, bad timing...

[Toge]

So what do you guys think I should doif this situation arises again?

[Yi-Long]

Do what I do, grab a glass of coke and a bag of M&M's and enjoy the flamewar

[gojensen]

By banning or to call someone to account for offending me, has the opposite effect of your intent. It creates an even worse attitude towards Muslims. What they will think is that only one Muslim has to whine a bit and everything will be done in order to satisfy him. I'm not willing to become the target of such thoughts. I know people would think like that, as this is exactly what I think about Jews in Germany. Due to the German's guilt complex of WW2, they treat Jews as if they were Gods, doing everything to ease their minds. I don't want to be in such a position.

Excellent position LD. And I think there's more folks than Germans that now have "jew-complexes".

As for "generalizing muslims as terrorists" I must say I really liked an interview I heard with a Brit Police Chief a while back where he made it really clear that this had nothing to do with "religious beliefs" or "holy books" but with "mad people that wanted to mad stuff" (or something to that effect...)

However, stuff like those Mohammad drawings really doesn't help to put folk at ease... especially it's blown out of proportions and when there are riots linked to Islam (I'm betting lots of the incidents were just "mad" people)...

As for Mark being banned I really hope not... For me, Tom's attitude towards homosexuality is worse than Mark's attitude towards Muslims... (maybe because homosexuality covers "every culture" and thus has a broader scope)... should Toge then ban Tom for this?

I think not.

[tom2681]

Tom's attitude towards homosexuality is worse than Mark's attitude towards Muslims

Yeah, I guess.

Although the only thing I said about homosexuality was:
"it is abnormal".

Which is a universal truth (as it goes against the law of nature). Never have I said that it is wrong/evil/bad.

[Markgway]

Mark's comment hardly "offends one Muslim" as he puts it, but it rather generalises Muslims as people who blow themselves up. Call them terrorists or whatever.

It was a wry comment meant as a joke. You honestly think that I seriously believe alcohol would stop Islamic suicide bombing? If you do then you do me a diservice. Maybe I'll have to make some jokes about Christians and Jews to settle the balance so you don't feel so persecuted. Everyone knows I detest all religion but just to be clear I don't for one second believe that all Muslims are bombers or terrorists. I really shouldn't have to say this... but Toge has made such an arse of the situation I find myself on the defensive.

Toge, I appreciate you wanting to protect the minority that slasher, Kurgan and me are on this forum in terms of belief, but remember that this is not the first argument I have been having with Mark about the same issue in one way or the other and we always got along (kind of) in the end.

I'm sorry, LD, I was under the impression that you had complained to Toge and asked for him to "do something". I didn't realise he was "acting on your behalf" without request. Let's bury this hatchet.

What they will think is that only one Muslim has to whine a bit and everything will be done in order to satisfy him.

I won't lie... I was beginning to wonder. Although I take Scots jokes as they're intended no one has ever leapt to my defence over them or accused the joker of racism. Nor would I want them to be.

If things get really bad, like Nazism or so, then by all means interfere.

Lol, I can assure you I'm not a Nazi. Can't speak for Toge.

[Markgway]

OK, you felt offended. I can't remember if you told us here, but if not you should have as it is your right. Just as I do when I see generalisations of Muslims etc.

I was the first to mention being offended by jokes made at the expense of victims of terrorism. No one took me seriously.

[grim_tales]

Didnt I say the Mario animation was offensive?

[Toge]

Lol, I can assure you I'm not a Nazi. Can't speak for Toge.

[Markgway]

@ Toge.

Grim, yeah, I said I was the first, not the only. When I said no one took me seriously, I meant other than you, because you had posted in this thread just before me to say the same thing.

But to clear up: No one but Grim took me seriously... Better? 8)

[grim_tales]

Thats fine