I found the R2 of HOFD up at CD-WOW, I bet the subtitles will be dumbed down a la Hero
I prefer the R3 2 discer cover as well (which I have), unless the R2 will have DTS I'm not even thinking about upgrading. Besides the R2 is cut.
I don't condone cruel horsefalls but AFAIK the horses used in the film were specially trained stunt horses from Ukraine, not normal horses, there was no cruelty involved.
I may pick it up for the cool looking extras. If an R4 2 discer comes which is uncut I may end up just having that, if it comes.
They've also bastardised Zhang Ziyi's name again to suit all the ignorant westerners. Someone should tell Pathe this! We don't spell our names with the surname first so why should the Chinese change?
I don't know why they have done that - looks wierd and wrong taking an Asian name and putting round the Western way (Zhang being her surname, Ziyi being the Chinese version of her Christian name).
Nice looking cover art though As you say this may be worth picking up for the good extras (but keep the r3 for uncut-ness).
Michael Mackenzie (DVD Times) says this about the censorship for HOFD, and I agree with him on this one.
This is just an unsubstantiated rumour, and I don't know if it actually makes any difference or not, but I've heard from more than one source that the horses were stunt horses from the Ukraine who were specifically trained for the purposes of doing dangerous-looking falls, and that none were actually harmed in the making of the film. If it's true, it wouldn't be the first time that the BBFC has erred on the side of caution and cutting rather than getting their facts straight (does anyone seriously believe car-lover Dario Argento bashed a cat's skull against a wall in Inferno?).
bradavon wrote:
I may pick it up for the cool looking extras. If an R4 2 discer comes which is uncut I may end up just having that, if it comes.
I wouldn't be so sure. The print I saw in theatres (here in NZ) was definately cut. Hopefully we'll get the uncut version for the DVD, but I still wouldn't buy it without DTS.
No commentary, second featurette or interviews though
I could live with the 18 seconds of cuts if the UK R2 had DTS. If the R4 turns out to be uncut or only slightly cut I'll get that and sell my HK 2 Disc LE if not I doubt I'll bother. Until the UK R2 goes cheap, maybe. I'd love the extras but not enough to pay full price for them.
Grim I don't reckon the subs will be dumbed down. Columbia Tristar (R1) and Pathé aren't Miramax.
I definately didn't see any "horse falls". I so guess we may have the UK cut.
Question: At the end of the HK cut (and maybe the UK cut) when Mei pulled the dagger out was there a Kill Bill Vol.1-esque geyser of blood, or did she gush several litres? It may've been censored in the cut I saw, but I can't remember how she bled out.
I noticed the UK R2 of this today and it has Mandarin DTS but no English dub. I also saw the interviews have been dropped, which weren't on the R1 so no real loss I guess.
I'm now not sure if I can be bothered. The cuts are very minor but it's unlikely I'd watch the extras anytime soon and the R3 HK is full-rate DTS!
grim_tales wrote:Michael Mackenzie (DVD Times) says this about the censorship for HOFD, and I agree with him on this one.
This is just an unsubstantiated rumour, and I don't know if it actually makes any difference or not, but I've heard from more than one source that the horses were stunt horses from the Ukraine who were specifically trained for the purposes of doing dangerous-looking falls, and that none were actually harmed in the making of the film. If it's true, it wouldn't be the first time that the BBFC has erred on the side of caution and cutting rather than getting their facts straight (does anyone seriously believe car-lover Dario Argento bashed a cat's skull against a wall in Inferno?).
To be honest if this were true, maybe the BBFC would re-consider if they were told about this. There's a bit on MelonFarmers recently how they originally wanted bird cruelty cut from a movie. The director complained saying the bird was already dead and that he tied strings to the birds wings to make it move! The BBFC believed him and passed it uncut...
Romero hat on (but remembering to swallow my spelling pill first ):
It's to late now though the DVD is on the shelf.
So unless an SE comes down the line a year or so from now and they decide to re-submit it it will never happen, also considering Zhang Yimou is very much a foreigner living hundreds of miles away put simply it will never happen.
Thank you for your e-mail regarding the cuts made to scenes involving
animal cruelty in House Of Flying Daggers.
The cuts were required on film in accordance with the Board's
obligations under the Cinematograph Films (Animals) Act 1937, and were carried over into the home video/DVD version in accordance with Board policy. Our obligations require us to consider scenes in terms of whether they have been 'organised or directed in such a way as to involve the cruel infliction of pain or terror on any animal'. This usually means that in scenes involving horsefalls we are looking out for illegal or dangerous 'tripping' techniques used to make the horses fall and which carry the likelihood of serious injury. The question of whether or not any animals were actually injured is beside the point.
In the case of House Of Flying Daggers there were three horsefalls which
raised concern, particularly as it did not appear that the filming of the
relevant scenes was supervised by an accredited animal welfare organisation
such as the American Humane Association. The producers were asked for assurances regarding the safety of the techniques used to engineer the horsefalls, but were unable to provide the Board with a satisfactory response. The scenes were then viewed by a member of the Royal College of
Veterinary Surgeons who confirmed the unacceptable (and, in some
instances, illegal) nature of the tripping techniques used, as well as their
potential for causing serious injury to the horses. It was only after this process that the decision was taken to make the cuts under our statutory and policy obligations, although it should be noted that a fourth horsefall was
left intact since the visual evidence, supported by expert advice, confirmed
that the animal was made to fall in a manner for which it was trained
and under the control of the rider, without the use of a tripping technique.
Similar horsefalls have been passed in many films.
I hope that this clarifies the issue and I thank you for your interest in the work of the Board.
I think it's the bit in the woods, where Takeshi Kaneshiro's character catches up with Zhang Ziyi, whilst she gets jumped on by four dudes. Remember he fires some arrows from a distance and manages to hit all four dudes? They fall back in the water. Takeshi picks up Zhang and they stroll off. The audience then sees the four dudes get up, pick the arrows off and yeah... stroll away.
Anyway, in that fight scene, where the horses are - I think on the HK R3 you get to see one or two of them fall. However it's supposedly missing ont he UK R2. Watch them both side by side, lemme know what you think.
You're right Bisc. I've compared both DVDs and this is the correct scene.
In the Director's Cut there are 4 horse falls, 1 has been left in and 3 have got the snip. 1 of those 3 looks no worse (actually the same) as 1 the horse fall they left in. I'd be surprised if a specially trained horse actually incurred any harm from falling on it's side.
Another is a grey area and the last cut horse fall does look very painful. The horse falls on to it's front and I'd be surprised if it didn't hurt itself.
Unfortunately to keep continuity this cut in question also cuts Zhang Ziyi jumping on to the horses back and fighting the guard. This looks cool.
The UK cut is very well done indeed you'd have no idea it was cut unless you compared the two cuts but you may wonder "what happened to their horses"?
The UK R2 is definitely better PQ to the HK SE. It's a fine example of where screen captures alone are not a true representation of the difference in quality. "If" the UK R2 is not as sharp (basically what the DVD Beaver comparison states) then it's so extremely minute I can't tell the difference.
The colours are more vibrant on the UK R2 and also more dynamic. I suspect this is a case of the same master being used but one being PAL and one being NTSC.
The sound I'd give to the HK SE (just). I've checked the file sizes and both are full-rate (yippee) except the HK SE is 100Mb larger. This could explain why but I must stress it's again extremely minute.
The extras easily go to the UK R2. The commentary is excellent and great fun to listen to (it's clear this was made for the Western releases, Zhang Yimou comments on the song Zhang Ziyi sings will be lost on the subs). The second disc of extras look pretty good but I'm in no rush to watch them.
The UK R2 menus are also nicer. I love the animated green effect of the first disc.
Lastly avoid the R1. It has no DTS, is cut by minutes and crams it all on 1 disc.
p.s - I think I'll keep both DVDs. It doesn't make any sense to me keeping the HK SE just for 18 seconds but I do love the film, so needs must.
I was thinking which DVD would I lend to a friend to see HOFD (assuming they had a multi-region player) and it would have to be the UK R2.
For 18 seconds it's not worth putting up with an inferior DVD. I forgot to mention the subs.
The UK R2 subs are much nicer, they're a little larger and a much nicer font. I'd say they're like Arial unlike the mucky subs on the HK SE which are like Courier New (I never liked that font).
Don't get me wrong on all accounts (bar extras) I was more than happy with my HK SE that is until I saw the UK R2.
ReconFive wrote:Fully uncut, nice anamorphic picture from original NTSC master, DTS, and cool packaging.
The DTS is only half-rate unlike the full-rate DTS on the HK SE. The HK SE is also 6.1!
This makes it better IMO. I'd prefer full-rate DTS over a 'very' marginal improvement in PQ even if the Korean DVD has much more extras they aren't subtitled anyway.
Last edited by bradavon on 24 Jul 2005, 17:36, edited 2 times in total.
For those who are interested I've created three Xvid files:
1. House of Flying Daggers (Cut 18 Seconds - In Context) - This lasts 44 seconds and includes the whole section. This is 4.39Mb.
2. House of Flying Daggers (Cut 18 Seconds) - This lasts 26 seconds and includes the cut 18 seconds plus 8 seconds of the fourth uncut horse fall, it was in between two of the cut horses falls so I couldn't remove it. The uncut horse fall is the third of four. This is 2.60Mb.
3. House of Flying Daggers (UK Cut) - This lasts 27 seconds and is the same footage as number 1 but from the UK DVD, hence why it's shorter. This one has no sound as for some reason it was completely corrupt when I ripped the DVD and sounded awful. It is 2.32Mb.
Each is 320x240 with the audio at 128Kbps. I tried to make the resolution higher but WinAVI Converter and VirtualDub refused to open and/or covert the relevant VOB file (strangely they'd read some of the other VOB files fine).
I tried this on two PCs. I ended up having to use iRiverter which is designed to convert DVDs to video formats compatible with the iRiver H300 and iAudio X5 MP3 Players. It's the only software I could find that would read the video. This software supports 640x480 but whenever I selected it it would still output as 320x240.
Once iRiveter had created the Xvid file of just chapter 4 (6 in the case of the UK DVD) I was then able to open this in VirtualDub and save out the two parts I wanted.
It looks acceptable when played back at 200% size, besides it gets the point across.
The BBFC believed him and passed it uncut... 
