The Existence of an Afterlife . . .

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 06 Jun 2006, 11:28

Wasn't that much of an offending joke. But it also wasn't funny to be honest, lol!

Anyway... Yi, must be that Buddhism-thing. My best friend is Thai and whenever I talk to her about death or so she says I shouldn't do that. One hell of an odd, but at the same time funny friendship. I'm a Muslim who has no problem with death, especially not his own. She's Buddhist and I'd say quite superstitious and scared, too when it comes to death. Of course Muslims do get sad upon the deaths of loved ones, but at the same time we are accepting it, maybe even looking forward to it. Very similar to Bushido, the way of the samurai. Muslims believe that death will take us to a better place.

So recently I talked to her about work and so. I said that I didn't understand how so many people could put all their effort into work all day, maybe even on the weekend and totally neglecting their social life, like going out, doing sports or refusing to have children. Only because of money? She said that money has become very important these days. I agreed, but I said that by having a good family life would make me more happy than 100.000 €uros. Maybe not more happy than a million, but you get the point.

So when I was at her house I asked her what good money was anyway, because I could get run over by a car tonight on my way home. We don't know where death is waiting for us. LOL, she got so scared, she wouldn't let me leave her place that day.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 06 Jun 2006, 14:24

thelostdragon wrote:I'm a Muslim who has no problem with death, especially not his own... Of course Muslims do get sad upon the deaths of loved ones, but at the same time we are accepting it, maybe even looking forward to it... Muslims believe that death will take us to a better place.

Has it ever occured to you that you might be wrong...? And that death might be "it" as far as our existance goes. What kind of crazy person would actually look forward to death without knowing what awaits beyond? I don't know if there's an afterlife (I strongly suspect not) - no one does. Under those circumstances how can anyone embrace death as a positive thing? Your Thai friend, LD, is the sensible one.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 06 Jun 2006, 16:06

I believe the thinking is that if you accept the inevitable as a positive thing, it become much less worrying. Not sure about the 'looking forward to it' part myself, but I understand the acceptance of death. That's not to say I'll just give up the ghost at the first opportunity, but it's the old que será será mentality.

And of course, when you ask how one can embrace death as a positive thing, what you're asking is how faith actually works. It's not a matter of right or wrong. It's a belief. A Muslim believes that this world is temporary, and that the afterlife is in fact the real life. What happens in the afterlife is dependant on how you act in this world.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 06 Jun 2006, 17:26

But that's just it: a belief.

How can 'a belief' be so strong that you're willing to forsake the only guaranteed existance we have (ie. our present human life).

Even if I did believe in an afterlife I can't prove or say with any certainty one exists, so why would I be happy to give up this life (however difficult) in exchange for an absolute unknown.

Many things I can understand, but disagree with. This I can't understand at all.

If I swore blind that in my life after next I was gonna be an intergalactic warlord you'd think I was fucking nuts... and you'd be right.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 06 Jun 2006, 18:07

Markgway wrote:How can 'a belief' be so strong that you're willing to forsake the only guaranteed existance we have (ie. our present human life).
Even if I did believe in an afterlife I can't prove or say with any certainty one exists, so why would I be happy to give up this life (however difficult) in exchange for an absolute unknown.

No-one's saying that anything has to be forsaken or given up regarding life. It's just that you should do the best you can with the time you've got.

Shen · Post by **Shen** » 06 Jun 2006, 18:16

one shouldnt worry about death really, how can you live if you are afriad, or worried about death? embrace it its a part of life, i mena everytime you walk out the door you take the "risk" of dying anyway, we dont think about it then, we dont fear it then, so why fear it at all, no-one really ceases to exist becuase they live on through others memories and such. its quite strange for me by now to be afraid to die, its like being afraid to cut myself or cross the street...thats just personally tho...

the68monkey · Post by **the68monkey** » 06 Jun 2006, 22:24

Markgway wrote:If I swore blind that in my life after next I was gonna be an intergalactic warlord you'd think I was fucking nuts... and you'd be right.

Of course we'd think you're nuts. You're an atheist, and we all know that!

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 06 Jun 2006, 23:33

Markgway wrote:What kind of crazy person would actually look forward to death without knowing what awaits beyond?

Almost a quarter of the world's population. And it's not that we don't know what awaits us beyond death. It's just that we are convinced that there is an afterlife.

Being scared of death all the time makes life less enjoyable. While if you think about death a lot, think of the ways one could die in, having the image in front of you, be it an accident, falling from a great height, bleeding out, starving, illness or simply age, you start to relly appreciate life for what it is... a stopover, or a place where we are given the option of where we wanna go after we die.

Under those circumstances how can anyone embrace death as a positive thing?

By knowing where your life is headed to anyway, aren't you living in constant fear if you take death that negatively? Death is a part of life. Not thinking about it... not facing it... ignoring it, won't make it disappear.

Your Thai friend, LD, is the sensible one.

...in your opinion.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 07 Jun 2006, 00:01

Kurgan wrote:No-one's saying that anything has to be forsaken or given up regarding life. It's just that you should do the best you can with the time you've got.

That makes sense and isn't what LD wrote. Read it again.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 07 Jun 2006, 00:07

thelostdragon wrote:Almost a quarter of the world's population. And it's not that we don't know what awaits us beyond death. It's just that we are convinced that there is an afterlife.

Yeah, but you don't KNOW. How can you be so cavalier about this life without KNOWING what awaits? Wouldn't you cling onto every second of this life just in case that's all there is?

Being scared of death all the time makes life less enjoyable.

Of course, but it is a natural thing to fear the unknown.

you start to relly appreciate life for what it is... a stopover, or a place where we are given the option of where we wanna go after we die.

You don't KNOW that. So how can you live under this illusion? Maybe there is an afterlife... maybe you're 100% correct... but you can't be sure. If I KNEW this life was a stopover I'd be cavalier too. But I don't, you don't and the quarter of the world's population you're talking about don't either. The only people who do are dead... and they ain't talking.

By knowing where your life is headed to anyway, aren't you living in constant fear if you take death that negatively? Death is a part of life. Not thinking about it... not facing it... ignoring it, won't make it disappear.

I can't argue with that theoretically. I just don't understand the cavalier "fuck it" attitude. Life sucks sometimes, but it's the only thing we KNOW we have, so why not cherish it?

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 07 Jun 2006, 00:21

Markgway wrote:I can't argue with that theoretically. I just don't understand the cavalier "fuck it" attitude. Life sucks sometimes, but it's the only thing we KNOW we have, so why not cherish it?

Life is cherished by Muslims. If I didn't cherish life and if I had that "fuck it"-attitude as you have put it, I wouldn't even write here. Not only, because I didn't want to, but also because I wouldn't know this place as I would have no computer and no internet. Why? Because I wouldn't be able to buy it, because with a "fuck it"-attitude, I wouldn't strive and work for money.

What is so negative about anticipating death, when knowing that it could come any minute?

If I KNEW this life was a stopover I'd be cavalier too. But I don't, you don't and the quarter of the world's population you're talking about don't either.

Mark, to someone who is convinced of something, there is no difference between believing it or knowing it.
Mark, you believe that you will wake up tomorrow in the morning. Do you know it? But you're convinced of it, right?

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 07 Jun 2006, 00:27

thelostdragon wrote:Mark, to someone who is convinced of something, there is no difference between believing it or knowing it.

Yes, there is. Finally the crux of where we disagree. Belief and knowledge aren't the same thing no matter how strong the former is. You could bet your life on a belief and that doesn't make it anymore factual.

Mark, you believe that you will wake up tomorrow in the morning. Do you know it? But you're convinced of it, right?

I'm not convinced... how could I be? I suspect I will, but I might die during the night... or before I finish typing out this sent.....aaaaahhhhhhhh

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 07 Jun 2006, 00:39

Markgway wrote:You could bet your life on a belief and that doesn't make it anymore factual.

No it wouldn't be any more factual. But only to you and all those who share your way of thinking. There are a lot of those who do, I know.

And your way of thinking isn't right to me and those who share my way of thinking, and there are also a lot of them. Did I ever start telling you that you are not sensible, though?

I'm not convinced... how could I be? I suspect I will

I don't think so. If you only suspect, aren't you afraid to sleep?

but I might die during the night... or before I finish typing out this sent.....aaaaahhhhhhhh

Why is it that one believes to be bound to die in pain, lol? So funny. I'm imagening some old-school kung-fu-flick-death to occur in front of the monitor. Aaaargh... and a sudden turn of the head to the side.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 07 Jun 2006, 00:50

thelostdragon wrote: No it wouldn't be any more factual. But only to you and all those who share your way of thinking. There are a lot of those who do, I know.

Lol, it's not a theory I'm putting forward. It's fact. No one KNOWS. You can belief all you want but that doesn't change anything. You're entitled to THINK that there's an afterlife, but thinking doesn't equal fact. The only FACT we have is that nobody knows - and nobody alive ever will. I never said you were stupid btw.

If you only suspect, aren't you afraid to sleep?

A. I can't NOT sleep. Afraid or not I MUST sleep. I don't believe I will not wake up so that helps. But I don't KNOW for sure that I will wake up. You see?

Why is it that one believes to be bound to die in pain, lol? So funny. I'm imagening some old-school kung-fu-flick-death to occur in front of the monitor. Aaaargh... and a sudden turn of the head to the side.

I knew that would get a little laugh...

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 07 Jun 2006, 00:57

Markgway wrote:You can belief all you want but that doesn't change anything.

LOL, Mark. You don't seem to get my point. Let me repeat your sentence with one word replaced.

You can KNOW (or not KNOW) all you want, but that doesn't change anything either from our perspective.

I never said you were stupid btw.

I never said you did. I said that I never told you you weren't sensible. It sounded to me as if you did when you said that my Thai friend is the sensible of us.

A. I can't NOT sleep.

Come on, you got my point.

I don't believe I will not wake up...

Isn't that the same as believing you will wake up?

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 07 Jun 2006, 01:08

thelostdragon wrote:LOL, Mark. You don't seem to get my point. Let me repeat your sentence with one word replaced. You can KNOW (or not KNOW) all you want, but that doesn't change anything either from our perspective.

I don't expect you to change your worldview and agree with me that there's no afterlife, merely that you don't know there's one and only belief strongly. You refuse to admit a plain fact.

Come on, you got my point.

I used to be sacred when I was younger. Woke up afraid I was on the verge of death. But I've calmed down these past years. Doesn't mean by sleeping I embrace death just that it's a path I have to take to live.

Isn't that the same as believing you will wake up?

Yeah, that was an awkward sentence, wasn't it?

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 07 Jun 2006, 01:35

Markgway wrote:You refuse to admit a plain fact.

Mark, we can continue doing this forever. Or until you get my point of saying that there are always two sides to a coin. So here we go:

You refuse to plainly believe.

So what do you mean by "fact"? The only fact I see here is that no dead person came back to tell us about death. (In our belief he wouldn't be able to anyway as we all resurrect on the same day.)

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 07 Jun 2006, 11:58

OK. One last time because this will go on forever......................................... and then back to Kurgan's unfunn bad-taste jokes.

Do you, Mr. Dragon, acknowledge that WE as a species DO NOT KNOW if there is life after death?

Forget BELIEFS, THOUGHTS, HOPES and SUPPOSITIONS. Deal only in FACT as in proven KNOWLEDGE.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 07 Jun 2006, 12:17

Markgway wrote:Do you, Mr. Dragon, acknowledge that WE as a species DO NOT KNOW if there is life after death?

May I remind you and members of the court that you are under oath?

Kinda apt, as I've received a summons for Jury duty today.

EvaUnit02 · Post by **EvaUnit02** » 07 Jun 2006, 15:48

thelostdragon wrote:
Markgway wrote:What kind of crazy person would actually look forward to death without knowing what awaits beyond?
Almost a quarter of the world's population. And it's not that we don't know what awaits us beyond death. It's just that we are convinced that there is an afterlife.

More like over half the world's population. ~2 billion Christians believe in an afterlife as well.

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 07 Jun 2006, 15:57

Well, that makes them more than half of the world's population. Jews believe so as well.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 07 Jun 2006, 15:59

Just say 'most of the world is convinced that there is an afterlife' and you're golden

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 07 Jun 2006, 15:59

Markgway wrote:Do you, Mr. Dragon, acknowledge that WE as a species DO NOT KNOW if there is life after death?

Forget BELIEFS, THOUGHTS, HOPES and SUPPOSITIONS. Deal only in FACT as in proven KNOWLEDGE.

I can't answer that question forgetting my beliefs. Mark, it is as if I asked you, to forget science, calculations etc.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 07 Jun 2006, 17:53

thelostdragon wrote:I can't answer that question forgetting my beliefs. Mark, it is as if I asked you, to forget science, calculations etc.

Yes you can as beliefs have nothing to do with facts.

This is actually making me laugh. I have a big smile on my face right now.

In the simplest terms possible:

Do you KNOW for 100% certain that there is an afterlife?

It's a really easy 'yes' or 'no' answer that's required.

Shen · Post by **Shen** » 07 Jun 2006, 18:17

enough already sheesh, one doesnt know if there is or isnt an afterlife, you cant say that LD is wrong and LD cant say that you are worong so whats the point in this huh? you need to chill out, man how about you take some hormone pills and reduce the amount of testosterone in you body, maybe then you'll mellow a little.

i personally think that there is an afterlife/reincarnation, but then i feel that there is more to the world than one sees but personally i dont care much either, if i die i die, whats the point of worrying its inevitable anyway...