Testing Americans On Muslim I.Q.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 17 Apr 2006, 19:28

Then that's well and truly fucked-up!

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 17 Apr 2006, 19:30

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 17 Apr 2006, 19:34

Hey, I'm blunt, but I say what I think. 8)

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 17 Apr 2006, 20:00

He he he! It's just funny when seeing people being shocked by this Islamic law and hence get afraid of that religion (I'm not talking specifically about you here) and at the same time forget all the other stuff they might have once heard about Islam.

But that's ok, considering the fact that Islam is the fastest-growing religion of the world. It seems that a lot of people don't mind about that law.

Here are a few quotes from US newspapers:

“Islam is the fastest-growing religion in America, a guide and pillar of stability for many of our people...” (Hillary Rodham Clinton, Los Angeles Times).

“Moslems are the world’s fastest-growing group...” (The Population Reference Bureau, USA Today).

“....Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the country.” (Geraldine Baum; Newsday Religion Writer, Newsday).

“Islam, the fastest-growing religion in the United States...” (Ari L. Goldman, New York Times).

The number of women, who are converting to Islam, has been rapidly growing, too. According to these women, one of the major reasons for converting was the high value of a woman in Islam. They say that wearing the Hijab gives them the feeling of freedom or something like this. Here is a link with quite an interesting article...

...especially for women...

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1227/p11s02-ussc.html

Anyway, back to what I actually wanted to say... It is unreasonable to think that so many Americans and people from different countries have converted to Islam without careful consideration and deep contemplation before concluding that Islam is true. These converts have come from different countries, classes, races, and walks of life. They include scientists, professors, philosophers, journalists, politicians, actors, athletes etc etc...

Here is an interesting story of a Jew who converted to Islam. He was one of the greatest thinkers in the Muslim World.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/newmuslims/asad.html

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 17 Apr 2006, 23:37

thelostdragon wrote:He he he! It's just funny when seeing people being shocked by this Islamic law and hence get afraid of that religion (I'm not talking specifically about you here) and at the same time forget all the other stuff they might have once heard about Islam.

Is Sharia Law officially representative of Islam though? I thought it might be something used to oppress people under the guise of religion? Culture masquerading as holy word. Surely a lot of these barbaric laws aren't actually in the Quoran? From what you've told me much of what 'we' fear about Islam is a bastardization. I do try to listen - if only for sake of knowledge and truth - but when waters are muddied it can become difficult to seperate what's cultural and what's genuinely religious.

But that's ok, considering the fact that Islam is the fastest-growing religion of the world. It seems that a lot of people don't mind about that law.

See... that statement has confused me(!) Are you saying that Muslims should accept Sharia Law? I heard of a report weeks ago which reckoned 40% of British Muslims wanted Sharia Law implemented in the UK. That kind of thing does scare the shit out of people... myself included.

The number of women, who are converting to Islam, has been rapidly growing, too. According to these women, one of the major reasons for converting was the high value of a woman in Islam. They say that wearing the Hijab gives them the feeling of freedom or something like this.

I'm quite aghast. Although I can see why ugly or fat women might want to cover up it seems strange that a regular woman would find anything appealing in dressing like a Ninja. In Islam women are raised to think this way... but to adopt it? Bizarre.

Anyway, back to what I actually wanted to say... It is unreasonable to think that so many Americans and people from different countries have converted to Islam without careful consideration and deep contemplation before concluding that Islam is true. These converts have come from different countries, classes, races, and walks of life. They include scientists, professors, philosophers, journalists, politicians, actors, athletes etc etc...

Yeah, but lots of people want Jedi to be a religion too. I'm not saying Islam is vapid like that, but that you can always find an enormous amount of people to support any religion or cult no matter how unlikely it may seem. Look at Scientology. It's rubbish in the main, but thousands swear, live and die by it. Truth is in the eye of the beholder and a truth of faith is an easy truth because it can never be disproven.

Shen · Post by **Shen** » 17 Apr 2006, 23:50

Markgway wrote:
I'm quite aghast. Although I can see why ugly or fat women might want to cover up it seems strange that a regular woman would find anything appealing in dressing like a Ninja. In Islam women are raised to think this way... but to adopt it? Bizarre.

my god mark you do sound like a chauvanistic pig. just becuase a woman is deemed fat and ugly doesnt mean its ok to use them as an example for something that has no foundation in any argument, women in islam are not forced to cover up and wear the burka (am i right hussain?). contrary to popular belief, women in islam are treated amazingly well, usually better than many are treated in the western society. atleast mainly they are respected, and not ridiculed for being outside the norm.

you should really put islamic ideology into google.

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 18 Apr 2006, 01:02

Markgway wrote:Is Sharia Law officially representative of Islam though?

Shariah law is required by an Islamic state (which, I repeat, does not exist anymore).

I thought it might be something used to oppress people under the guise of religion?

It's not. It came with Islam and God and not with the Muslims.

Surely a lot of these barbaric laws aren't actually in the Quoran?

Barbaric? Rather daunting and deterring. You know how many hands were cut off during the existance of the Islamic Empire (which lasted over 1400 years until 1945). A total of 9 registered hands. LOL! Far less than people receiving the death penalty in the USA per year.

Or another thing you would call barbaric are the 80 whiplash for the man and the woman who have performed adultery. But those whiplashes are not to executed by anybody. First of all there is a trial where 4 eye witnesses have to prove the culprits' guilt. When are there ever 4 eye witnesses to adultery?

From what you've told me much of what 'we' fear about Islam is a bastardization.

Yes, like women getting stoned in Africa or so.

Are you saying that Muslims should accept Sharia Law?

Yes. They should live by the Shariah. If they don't, nobody these days is allowed to punish them. Absolutely nobody, as there is no Islamic state, government or court who can sentence the accused person. Their punishment will be on the Day of Judgement. However, if one day we get back an Islamic state, the Shariah Law is to be applied.

I heard of a report weeks ago which reckoned 40% of British Muslims wanted Sharia Law implemented in the UK. That kind of thing does scare the shit out of people... myself included.

If everybody looked at the Islamic history, nobody would be afraid of that. Europeans would see that a lot of their ancestors were trying hard to make a life in the Middle East. It used to be people's dreams, just like a lot of people nowadays dream to live in the USA. In fact, compared to today, the Islamic Empire was like the USA is nowadays in terms of popularity (well, not under the reign of Bush, but you get the idea). What people these days cannot imagine is that an Islamic state would be able to be modern or whatever. Islam is the most adaptable religion in terms of science, development etc. Yet, one day Muslims became kinda big-headed and snotty when it came to technology. They thought they had discovered everything and stopped doing research. Well, they survived for another +100 years or so, but when the West, who hadn't slept all that time, came along with all the new technologies, Muslims were confused. They would wonder if a phone was allowed to use according to Islamic laws. They would wonder about all kinds of stuff. And this is when they encountered newer and hence stronger weapons and at the end they were defeated.

These days, Muslims surely know that there is still lots to discover. But the West is afraid of the power an Islamic state would have, which is why they systematically divided the Islamic Empire into seperate countries. They implanted new leaders for each of these countries and Muslims stopped being Muslims and instead became Palestinian, Syrian, Jordanian, Turks, Lebanese, Saudi-Arabian etc... who all happen to have the same beliefs. You see, they stopped holding together. Islam wasn't just a religion. It was a way of life and a form of government. However, religion and politics have been seperated by the West (with the help of traitors like Mustafa Kamal), which is why Muslims in the Muslim world have become so nationalistic.

I'm quite aghast. Although I can see why ugly or fat women might want to cover up it seems strange that a regular woman would find anything appealing in dressing like a Ninja.

A "regular" woman? Define please.

In Islam women are raised to think this way... but to adopt it? Bizarre.

Have you followed and read the link I have posted? Just for refference in case you have not:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1227/p11s02-ussc.html

Yeah, but lots of people want Jedi to be a religion too.

You can't possibly compare the amount of people wanting Jedi to be a religion and those who KNOW that Islam is a religion and ARE converting to it. We are talking about the fastest-growing religion in the world here. The numbers have been rapidly increasing ever since Sept. 11th. In 2000, there were about 900.000.000 Muslims in the world. Now there are about 1.218.100.000 Muslims on this planet which is more than a sixth of the world's whole population. This means that in only 4 years, the numbers of Muslims in this world has increased by 318.000.000 people who have converted to Islam (minus a little part of population growth in the Islamic world of course).

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 18 Apr 2006, 01:24

Shen wrote:women in islam are not forced to cover up and wear the burka (am i right hussain?).

Every woman is responsible for herself. The women in the Islamic Empire are supposed to have been wearing the headscarve like this lady here, covering her hairs, the ears and the throat:

The ninja-thingy is more of a hommage to the wives of Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) who were clothing like this. That was very fashionable like this.

When a woman usually wears her hijab like in the very top picture (not covering her face), but one day all of a sudden she IS covering her face, then that's not because she got married and her husband is oppressing her or so, lol. That's just when she has styled herself a lot and put on make-up etc. She then usually covers her face if she has to leave the house in order to go to the place she used the make-up for. An example would be a wedding, where men and women celebrate in different rooms. Of course there are mixed weddings, but that would be a different topic now.

As for the Burka...:

The only place I have ever seen women usually wearing these is in Afghanistan. According to several books I have read, it is a habbit that the Afghan women got used to, due to living in constant war. Afghanistan is a country that has been at war for over 40 years or so and women were very often raped by Soviet soldiers etc...

Anyway... to sum up, I can't see what's so bad about a headscarf. I mean if it is provided by a religion's law (and it's not like Islam is providing women to scare people to death with their scarves), why not? I mean would Muslims be more welcome if all our women took off their hijabs? LOL!

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 18 Apr 2006, 02:02

Shen wrote:my god mark you do sound like a chauvanistic pig.

women in islam are not forced to cover up and wear the burka

I thought they were because of male oppression indocturned since birth. Ask a Muslim girl raised in western values if she wants to wear a Burka - fat or thing, ugly or babe? I refuse to believe this is at all religious. If there was ever such a dude as Mohammed I doubt he wasted precious time chatting to God about dress code.

contrary to popular belief, women in islam are treated amazingly well, usually better than many are treated in the western society. atleast mainly they are respected, and not ridiculed for being outside the norm.

Except when they have to walk behind men, cover-up, and basically shut their faces until spoken to. Amazingly well.

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 18 Apr 2006, 02:18

Markgway wrote:Except when they have to walk behind men

Source?

cover-up

Read my previous post please.

and basically shut their faces until spoken to.

There have always been many female politicians and leaders in the Islamic Empire. Have a look please...
http://www.guide2womenleaders.com/Muslim_Leaders.htm

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 18 Apr 2006, 02:28

thelostdragon wrote:Shariah law is required by an Islamic state (which, I repeat, does not exist anymore).

You said previously that you would live in an Islamic state and that it was a great idea. So you believe in Shariah Law? Surely not the SAME Shariah Law that is in action now? Where adulterers are stoned to death? People have their hands cut off for stealing (I think even Romero would balk at that) and switching religions is punishable by death? Not THAT Shariah Law, LD?

Barbaric? Rather daunting and deterring. You know how many hands were cut off during the existance of the Islamic Empire (which lasted over 1400 years until 1945). A total of 9 registered hands. LOL! Far less than people receiving the death penalty in the USA per year.

I never said it didn't work... but in the 21st Century come on... At least the death penalty (which I'm ambiguous about depending on my mood) is applied only to people who KILL INNOCENTS. I'd rather have shoplifters than a society which lops of criminals' hands.

Or another thing you would call barbaric are the 80 whiplash for the man and the woman who have performed adultery. But those whiplashes are not to executed by anybody.

So who does the whipping? I don't get it. Anyways, adultery doesn't deserve state intervention. It should be a private matter. Sometimes people are unhappy in relationships and seek solace elsewhere? That's life. I'm sorry but all this shit IS barbaric.

First of all there is a trial where 4 eye witnesses have to prove the culprits' guilt. When are there ever 4 eye witnesses to adultery?

A gang-bang???

Seriously in any crime you could find four liars to bear witness. No justice system is infallable, but relying solely(?) on witness testimony is dodgy.

Yes, like women getting stoned in Africa or so.

So to confirm: that's NOT Islamic?

Yes. They should live by the Shariah. If they don't, nobody these days is allowed to punish them. Absolutely nobody, as there is no Islamic state, government or court who can sentence the accused person.

So are you saying a Muslim could walk into a convenience store pull out a gun and blow a cashier's head off and not be prosecuted or punished because there's no Shariah involved? I must be misunderstanding...

If everybody looked at the Islamic history, nobody would be afraid of that.

Mate, the stuff you've just said scares me... nevermind history. I doubt it'll ever happen in the UK. But I'm packing my bags just in case...

They would wonder if a phone was allowed to use according to Islamic laws.

Is it?

But the West is afraid of the power an Islamic state would have, which is why they systematically divided the Islamic Empire into seperate countries.

If such an all-powerful state existed wouldn't there be a risk of a holy war? Would Islam be content with one giant state in the Middle East? No invasions or attempts to "expand" an empire? Remember Britain used to own half the world.

A "regular" woman? Define please.

Ordinary, average, I guess. Someone who wouldn't normally have any physical reason to hide.

Have you followed and read the link I have posted? Just for refference in case you have not:

Interesting. I can't see it catching on big time though. Too conservative.

You can't possibly compare the amount of people wanting Jedi to be a religion and those who KNOW that Islam is a religion and ARE converting to it.

Nah, I was just being funny.

The numbers have been rapidly increasing ever since Sept. 11th.

Why would that be? You'd think if anything there'd be a decrease. I'm not saying there should be just that I'm wondering what about 9/11 would make people convert - even if they didn't place any blame on Islam?

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 18 Apr 2006, 02:41

thelostdragon wrote:Every woman is responsible for herself. The women in the Islamic Empire are supposed to have been wearing the headscarve like this lady here, covering her hairs, the ears and the throat

Why cover up a woman's beauty? What's wrong with showing hair and ears? Isn't that just old-fashioned nonsense that needs to be updated? I've seen plenty of Muslim girls with their faces uncovered and they don't look like whores. You seem to be enthusiastic LD about pictures of hot women, like my Cecilia for example, but from what you're saying she would have to cover up if she was a Muslim (Glad, she's not, lol) How about nudity? Nudity is natural. I'd hate to think what would happen to Sharon Stone in Islam.

The ninja-thingy is more of a hommage to the wives of Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) who were clothing like this. That was very fashionable like this.

Fashionable if you're Sho Kosugi, perhaps?

Anyway... to sum up, I can't see what's so bad about a headscarf.

Headscarves are for winter and little old ladies. You should enjoy you looks while you're young. They fade fast enough... then cover your face to hide the wrinkles.

Having nice hair, wearing make-up and, yes, tight-fitting clothes does not make a woman a whore.

I mean would Muslims be more welcome if all our women took off their hijabs? LOL!

Yeah, by me anyways. I like a nice bit of eye-candy. But then you'd probably have me whiplashed for even approaching a Muslim woman. Irreligious infadel that I am.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 18 Apr 2006, 02:56

Now here's a woman who should wear a fucking burka.....

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 18 Apr 2006, 03:43

Markgway wrote:Surely not the SAME Shariah Law that is in action now?

You don't seem to listen (read). There is no real Shariah law in place anymore.

Where adulterers are stoned to death?

I explained to you that 80 whiplashes are the punishment for adultery in Islam, which cannot be executed without a sentence by an Islamic court of an Islamic government. What*'s so hard to get about this?

I never said it didn't work... but in the 21st Century come on...

It worked very well until 1924 (over 1400 years), which is just recently compared to history.

At least the death penalty (which I'm ambiguous about depending on my mood) is applied only to people who KILL INNOCENTS.

See? Depending on your mood. These days it also depends on the judges mood. Why not have a law which states what punishments are to be applied for certain crimes?

Or another thing you would call barbaric are the 80 whiplash for the man and the woman who have performed adultery. But those whiplashes are not to executed by anybody.
So who does the whipping? I don't get it.

Sorry... it would be the same guy who injects the lethal injections in America... the executioner.

Sometimes people are unhappy in relationships and seek solace elsewhere? That's life. I'm sorry but all this shit IS barbaric.

First of all, I would be glad if you didn't call the things I wanna by "shit".

Second of all, I find it more barbaric to cheat on one's wife/husband and to be unfaithful by committing adultery, than what a Muslim would do. If I am unhappy in my relation to my wife, I have the right to divorce her. The same goes for woman. If a woman is not satisfied with her man (for whatever reason), she has the right in Islam to get a divorce right away.

First of all there is a trial where 4 eye witnesses have to prove the culprits' guilt. When are there ever 4 eye witnesses to adultery?
Seriously in any crime you could find four liars to bear witness.

Oh man, do I really have to explain every single detail here? Do you think that the judge would take the word of four blokes who turned up just to testify. Of course all the 4 witnesses have to have a positive proof that they were present at the "site of crime". If there is only the slightest doubt that one of them is lying, the judge has the duty (as he is ordered by Allah's Shariah Law) to free the accused person.

Yes, like women getting stoned in Africa or so.
So to confirm: that's NOT Islamic?

So what would you like to hear. Whatever I tell you, will lead to the same. If I told you my honest opinion, which is "no", I'd be going against Western propaganda by the media. If I told you yes, I'd confirm the media's propaganda.

Yes. They should live by the Shariah. If they don't, nobody these days is allowed to punish them. Absolutely nobody, as there is no Islamic state, government or court who can sentence the accused person.
So are you saying a Muslim could walk into a convenience store pull out a gun and blow a cashier's head off and not be prosecuted or punished because there's no Shariah involved? I must be misunderstanding...

Sorry, what I meant was that nobody is allowed to punish them according to the Shariah Law without an Islamic state.

Mate, the stuff you've just said scares me...

It does? Cool. You know, although it is my duty as a Muslim, I'm tired of trying to make Islam look good to a non-Muslim, who might be interested and asking stuff, but never interested enough to go and buy a book about Islam. Never interested enough to go and buy a translation of the Qur'an. Only just interested enough to have a little conversation with a Muslim, just to see what kind of sick bastards Muslims are and how fortunate he is not to be one of them.

I bet that if some people were really interested enough to learn about Islam, they'd already have ordered a book from Amazon... just one of the books I have been recommending to them. But it seems that they always rely on the good old Hussain to come and help them understand what they see on the news.

As a Muslim, I am part of the problem, that people know so little about Islam. I really want to help solve this problem, but it's really hard if the people who ask you about stuff don't get their facts right in the first place, which is why such conversations end up in so many misunderstandings. It's like a kid expecting to become a great martial artist, simply by watching his master or elder training fellows performing fancy moves. He will never be able to understand how these beautiful moves work unless he starts trying hard himself.

I have been learning about Christianity in school. I attended Christian religion in every grade I sat for in Germany. I recently finished reading a book about Buddhism. And next I'm trying to inform myself a bit about Juaism. I am currently looking for a recommendable book.

They would wonder if a phone was allowed to use according to Islamic laws.
Is it?

Of course not, or have you ever seen Muslims in your society living like Amish People in the middle of America? It's just that they didn't know back when the telephone was introduced to them, as it was something completely new. But over the years, there has not been found a single verse in the Qur'an or any Hadith by the Prophet (pbuh) which clearly forbids its usage (like Alcohol or so).

But the West is afraid of the power an Islamic state would have, which is why they systematically divided the Islamic Empire into seperate countries.
If such an all-powerful state existed wouldn't there be a risk of a holy war?

The Holy War was invented by the Pope and it resulted in a few crusades which killed millions of people. If you were referring to Jihad though (which can roughly be translated as "Struggle"), I say yes. That's why I said that they are afraid. Would Jihad be necessary though? Only if a non-Islamic country was forbidding the distribution of the idea of Islam in its country. So in other words not really different from what America has been doing to Communist countries or Afghanistan. Put aside their real reasons for invading other countires, but that's how they market and justify their wars to their own people.

Would Islam be content with one giant state in the Middle East?

For a beginning? Yes, maybe. A Muslim however is not just an Arab or a resident of the Middle East. A Muslim believes to be cosmopolitan. So for a long-term... you know how unrealitic that would be. Any Empire strives for exapansion. If the Prophet (pbuh) and his few friends had never left Mecca, Islam wouldn't be as international as it is these days.

Green: Sunnies
Red: Shiited
Blue: Ibadites

The numbers have been rapidly increasing ever since Sept. 11th.
Why would that be?

Honestly? I believe because people realised how little they have been knowing about Islam when seeing all this propaganda against Islam on Western TV. They started informng themselves. Most books sold months after Sept. 11th in Germany, were about Islam.

You'd think if anything there'd be a decrease.

Yes, but I'm glad to see that not everybody fell victim to the US propaganda and that it caused the opposite of what they tried to reach.

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 18 Apr 2006, 04:07

Markgway wrote:Why cover up a woman's beauty? What's wrong with showing hair and ears?

It's not about hiding a woman's beauty. The general public in the West thinks its about hiding a woman's beauty, because they seem to see nothing else in a woman than her beauty... which again makes her a completely sexual object here.

Isn't that just old-fashioned nonsense that needs to be updated?

It's not nonsense, no. It's Islam, something a 6th of the world's population believes in. You can hardly call that non-sense. Does it have to be updated, though...? No, it does not. Everything that needed to be updated already was when Allah sent his last Prophet who was Mohammed (pbuh).

I've seen plenty of Muslim girls with their faces uncovered and they don't look like whores.

Have I said so anywhere. You're saying this because you think that I think this way. And because usually people in the West think that the less a woman is wearing the more she is a whore. Sorry if I'm talking for the whole West, but at least it's that way in Germany, Holland and France. Do I have to mention America, where woman call themselves whores in music or porn?

So please keep that in mind: To us a woman not wearing the headscarf is not a whore.

Sheesh!

You seem to be enthusiastic LD about pictures of hot women, like my Cecilia for example, but from what you're saying she would have to cover up if she was a Muslim.

Yes, she would. Does that change the fact that I am a man with natural drives? Does that change the fact of the dilemma all Muslims are living with... the dilemma of not having an Islamic state in which they can live.

How about nudity? Nudity is natural. I'd hate to think what would happen to Sharon Stone in Islam.

OK then, next time you go to work, please go fully undressed and give your boss the same explanation. You're just being silly now, Mark.

The ninja-thingy is more of a hommage to the wives of Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) who were clothing like this. That was very fashionable like this.
Fashionable if you're Sho Kosugi, perhaps?

Sorry, but totally out-of-place in this conversation.

You should enjoy you looks while you're young.

Huh? What do you mean by you should enjoy your looks? A woman can do so anytime in the mirror is she is keen about her own looks. You rather mean let men enjoy the looks of women while they are young.

I get the feeling that people tend to think that life as a Muslim must be really sad. But the wide presence of Muslims shows that they do get married. Do you think a man cannot see his wives hair? Unlike in Christianity, people are allowed to have sex for pleasure in Islam and people have the duty to live a happy life and not confess that they are sinners all the time.

Having nice hair, wearing make-up and, yes, tight-fitting clothes does not make a woman a whore.

LOL, stop talking to me as if I was an unknowing creature. I never said that it made women whores, neither does Islam.

I mean would Muslims be more welcome if all our women took off their hijabs? LOL!
Yeah, by me anyways. I like a nice bit of eye-candy.

See? Women to you are eye-candy. Well, as I said, I am a man and to me they are too, but it is not a priority.

But then you'd probably have me whiplashed for even approaching a Muslim woman.

There is no such law in Shariah. I know it was supposed to be a joke, but it's starting to get out of place. I'm trying hard to answear your questions only to hear "but", "but", "but" all the time. I'm not forcing you to agree, but making fun of my explanations and on top of that trying to provoke by posting a picture of a topless woman is just disrespectful.

tom2681 · Post by **tom2681** » 18 Apr 2006, 04:50

Knowing that there's no such thing as God or Allah, I cannot help but laugh out loud while reading this meaningless discussion.

It's like watching two dinosaurs argue about the "edge of the Earth" and knowing that it's actually round.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 18 Apr 2006, 09:12

Thanks LD for all those explanations (like the headscarf and adultery thing). Interesting.

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 18 Apr 2006, 12:00

Well Tom, why contribute to a discussion that is meaningless to you?

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 18 Apr 2006, 12:45

Tom2681 wrote:Knowing that there's no such thing as God or Allah, I cannot help but laugh out loud while reading this meaningless discussion.

Atheists are bad as any religious nut. Both have their own dogmatic views that they adhere to. Agnosticism is a far better option to take.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 18 Apr 2006, 13:45

thelostdragon wrote:You don't seem to listen (read). There is no real Shariah law in place anymore.

But if there was... you would support it unquestioned?

I explained to you that 80 whiplashes are the punishment for adultery in Islam, which cannot be executed without a sentence by an Islamic court of an Islamic government. What*'s so hard to get about this?

What's so hard to get is that an intelligent person could find this barbarism acceptable? I keep asking in the hope that you'll prove me wrong.

It worked very well until 1924 (over 1400 years), which is just recently compared to history.

Yeah, but things change, that's how it's supposed to be. The world and society evolves. Nothing lasts forever, including our lives.

Why not have a law which states what punishments are to be applied for certain crimes?

That by itself makes sense... but what are considered crimes and what punishments would be doled out is another matter entirely. I don't fancy being whipped 80 times for boning my neighbour's wife!

Sorry... it would be the same guy who injects the lethal injections in America... the executioner.

Appropriate since 80 lashes would kill a lot of people.

First of all, I would be glad if you didn't call the things I wanna by "shit".

I wasn't referring to Islam as shit in general. But I'll try not to use that term for your sake.

Second of all, I find it more barbaric to cheat on one's wife/husband and to be unfaithful by committing adultery, than what a Muslim would do. If I am unhappy in my relation to my wife, I have the right to divorce her. The same goes for woman. If a woman is not satisfied with her man (for whatever reason), she has the right in Islam to get a divorce right away.

Morally that makes sense... but relationhips aren't black and white. You can't just get a divorce everytime you fall for another person. We're not pre-programmed robots. Feelings get in the way... What if it's a one-night stand? That deserve a whipping?

Oh man, do I really have to explain every single detail here? Do you think that the judge would take the word of four blokes who turned up just to testify. Of course all the 4 witnesses have to have a positive proof that they were present at the "site of crime". If there is only the slightest doubt that one of them is lying, the judge has the duty (as he is ordered by Allah's Shariah Law) to free the accused person.

But what if one is lying... but the other three are telling the truth?

So what would you like to hear. Whatever I tell you, will lead to the same. If I told you my honest opinion, which is "no", I'd be going against Western propaganda by the media. If I told you yes, I'd confirm the media's propaganda.

Just tell me the truth. Not interested in propaganda. Because I don't agree with what you say doesn't mean I think you're lying about it.

Sorry, what I meant was that nobody is allowed to punish them according to the Shariah Law without an Islamic state.

I see. But other courts are entitled.

You know, although it is my duty as a Muslim, I'm tired of trying to make Islam look good to a non-Muslim, who might be interested and asking stuff, but never interested enough to go and buy a book about Islam. Never interested enough to go and buy a translation of the Qur'an. Only just interested enough to have a little conversation with a Muslim, just to see what kind of sick bastards Muslims are and how fortunate he is not to be one of them.

Don't be so paranoid, man. It's true I'm not interested enough in Islam (or any religion) to buy a book because I don't believe in any of it. But there's nothing wrong with picking up some information from a conversation or debate. You don't HAVE to talk to me I just figured you were interested in stating your case so to speak... You may get irritated by the things I say but look at it this way: I'm the only one here that's even willing to question. Most others are too bound by political correctness (or simple disinterest) to even engage in any discussion. I don't think all Muslims are sick bastards... (like I need to say that?) but certain aspects of your religion I strongly disagree with. IF I were Christian and we were discussing Christianity I'm sure you'd find much to object to...

But it seems that they always rely on the good old Hussain to come and help them understand what they see on the news.

It's a small forum... you can't be surprised if the few people on it (usually me, lol) ask questions. You're by far the most vociferous (only?) representative of Islam here. If there were others... maybe the debate would be wider? I can't be blamed for that.

As a Muslim, I am part of the problem, that people know so little about Islam. I really want to help solve this problem, but it's really hard if the people who ask you about stuff don't get their facts right in the first place, which is why such conversations end up in so many misunderstandings.

Yeah, I'm sure it's not easy explaining Islam in sound bites and paragraphs. That does create a lot of confusion. You might find this hard to believe: but the reason I ask so many questions is because I DON'T want to believe the worst as perpetrated by certain sections of the media. I'd much rather come away with a modicum of respect for Islam (at least the real Islam and not the cultural bastardization we see) than confirm my worst prejudices. But it's very difficult for a staunch secularist like myself to accept ideas which are morally incompatable. Is there nothing in Islam which you question or disagree with? Even little things...? Part of the difficulty for me is in relating to someone who believes in every word without question.

I have been learning about Christianity in school. I attended Christian religion in every grade I sat for in Germany. I recently finished reading a book about Buddhism. And next I'm trying to inform myself a bit about Juaism. I am currently looking for a recommendable book.

That's very open-minded. I'm curious as to what you thought of those - in comparison to Islam - and why you've bothered exploring other religions?

Of course not, or have you ever seen Muslims in your society living like Amish People in the middle of America?

Invite me to the next barn-building.

But over the years, there has not been found a single verse in the Qur'an or any Hadith by the Prophet (pbuh) which clearly forbids its usage (like Alcohol or so).

Is alcohol banned in all its forms. I mean a single pint of beer is verbotten?

Would Jihad be necessary though? Only if a non-Islamic country was forbidding the distribution of the idea of Islam in its country.

But if there's an Islamic state why would it matter what goes on in the rest of the world? Unless you're talking about Muslims being persecuted for their religion? But it sounds like you're talking about promotion and that the lack thereof is an excuse for somekind of invasion. That's the same as invading countries who don't allow promotion of democracy. I don't agree with that either.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 18 Apr 2006, 14:10

thelostdragon wrote:So please keep that in mind: To us a woman not wearing the headscarf is not a whore.

But she's less Islamic? What would you say if your wife or sister choose not to wear a headscarf? Would you be OK with that?

Yes, she would. Does that change the fact that I am a man with natural drives?

No, but none of us would know what Cecilia was like beyond the centre of her face, nice though it is. Why cover such beauty? It would ruin my avatar for one thing... Think of all the women you've found sexually attractive in your life... how many of them wear scarves and robes?

OK then, next time you go to work, please go fully undressed and give your boss the same explanation. You're just being silly now, Mark.

I was talking about in film and media. I'm not saying Muslims should walk down the street starkers. lol

You rather mean let men enjoy the looks of women while they are young.

Of course. Women enjoy being appreciated by men. The ones who say otherwise are the ones not attractive enough to get appreciation. But it works in reverse. A guy with rippling muscles and a Tom Cruise-smile is happy to show off his looks and be admired... whereas the lard ass with the crooked teeth would be more likely to complain about how shallow we all are. Humans are sexual beings and driven by sexuality.

I get the feeling that people tend to think that life as a Muslim must be really sad.

More repressive than sad. That is how it appears to outsiders. A life where every single aspect is governed by a book. No room for freedom of thought.

Unlike in Christianity, people are allowed to have sex for pleasure in Islam and people have the duty to live a happy life and not confess that they are sinners all the time.

Are Muslims allowed to have sex with non-Muslims? And no, LD, I'm not propositioning you....

See? Women to you are eye-candy. Well, as I said, I am a man and to me they are too, but it is not a priority.

Not solely eye-candy of course. I mean I wouldn't treat my Mum that way would I? lol But you can respect an attractive woman just as much as a plain or covered one. I don't see how covering up garners more respect. At least that's how I see it.

There is no such law in Shariah. I know it was supposed to be a joke, but it's starting to get out of place....and on top of that trying to provoke by posting a picture of a topless woman is just disrespectful

I do that in case things get too heavy... my humour is supposed to show I'm not being mean. I guess it doesn't always work. I thought the topless ugly woman would be funny....

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 18 Apr 2006, 14:42

If 1 person is lying and the other 3 are telling the truth then there must be seeds of doubt there, so the person would have to be freed?

tom2681 · Post by **tom2681** » 18 Apr 2006, 17:02

LD wrote:Tom, why contribute to a discussion that is meaningless to you?

If you read carefully, you'll notice that I haven't contributed anything to the discussion. Not even once.

Still, when it got serious to the point of becoming ridiculous, I had to say something.

Sorry, but you and Mark sound like kids arguing over Santa Claus.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 18 Apr 2006, 17:10

But Santa exists. Everyone knows that

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 18 Apr 2006, 17:28

Actually Santa Claus and religion have a lot in common. Both are based on blind faith. But we grow out of Santa Claus don't we. Well, except Grim...

The Tooth Fairy is another matter, however...