Behaviour, bringing up children 'the right way'

Mordib · Post by **Mordib** » 03 Apr 2006, 08:47

Opinions please -

Behaviour in society is deteriorating and this deteriation is starting to accelerate. Parents blame the schools (or the government), Schools blame the parents.

What has changed? Well try ths on for size. Go back even 100 years and we see a society with very rigid rules on etiquette and behaviour. Long and hard working conditions, physical punishment for breaking the rules - whether you agree with these concepts or not there is no denying that children new what they were and werent allowed to do and even the ones prone to breaking the rules rarely had the time or energy to do so.

Back to the present and we now have rights. lots of them. Living conditions are exponentially higher, the majority of people have more free time and more money to spend in that free time. The catch, people need entertaining more, there is much less emphasis on bringing children up 'the right way' and no way to enforce such lessons even if we did.

it's the ultimate catch 22, we have raised the level of life in many great ways yet in doing so we are rapidly destroying the society we have worked so hard to create.

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 03 Apr 2006, 12:40

You know which old formula is sadly missing these days in terms of bringing up kids? A simple beating. I'm not talking about beating the shit out of a child. But depending on what bad thing the kid has done the punishment should be appropriate and not just that of a simple scolding. Unfortunately, these kind of methods are violating the law these days (in Germany). It is not forbidden in Asian countries and Asian people are known for their politeness. And by Asia I don't only mean the Far East, but also the Middle East.

For example: In Germany I very rarely experience all the childs in a household being at home when their parents are visited by their friends, and greeting them.

or

When I ride in the train/bus or simply walk in the streets over here in Germany, I very often see young kids, between the age of 5 and 10, screaming at their parents, whining around and bugging the shit out of their surroundings. All they get from their parents is this laisser-faire attitude, which really pisses me off. A simple slap in the face would do. Not one that makes the kid's head rip off, but one that makes the kid realise that it is a bastard for what it is currently doing.

I never see such things in the Middle East. Every job reference or report card in school I have ever received underlines my politeness and civilty with colleagues and bosses. Back when I was young I would curse my parents for beating me at times. Now I thank them for showing me what discipline means.

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 03 Apr 2006, 13:10

I'm kinda inbetween... I dont think you NEED to spank your kids to teach them discipline, but you do need to be very very strict. I'll probably force them into a handstand and stuff like that whenever they're bad...

I feel a big part of the problem is that nowadays many parents are out working instead of being at home with their kids. I feel at least one of the parents should be at home, providing a good home where kids learn respect and good values. Nowadays though, many kids grow up with both of their parents working, so they only have TV and the streets to learn their lessons from (and school, but in Holland the schoolsystem is fucked up)

tom2681 · Post by **tom2681** » 03 Apr 2006, 13:34

I think kids should be brought up the way I was brought up:

No spanking, punishments or psychological/physical violence of any kind.

Just dialogue. Constant communication between parents and children, learning the fine line between good and bad through dialogue.

You can't learn correct behaviour in school. The only teachers you need are your parents.

LD wrote:which old formula is sadly missing these days in terms of bringing up kids? A simple beating.

I couldn't disagree more. Any kind of punishment can't make the kid understand that he did something wrong. He needs to be taught. If he makes a mistake, then somebody must explain it to him.
That worked on me. Whenever I made a mistake, my parents would simply explain why they felt it was wrong.

LD wrote: very often see young kids, between the age of 5 and 10, screaming at their parents, whining around and bugging the shit out of their surroundings.

That actually comes from a lack of attention. Their parents don't even notice them anymore, so they try anything to get their attention.

I used to be the quiet kid in school (many people thought there was something seriously wrong with me). That's only because my parents taught me about mutual respect when I was very young.

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 03 Apr 2006, 13:52

Tom,

I forgot to add that of course it depends on the type of human being you have in front of you. If a kid learns easily as you obviosuly did, I guess there is no need for a beating. But man, I was a really tough rascal as a kid. I'd do shit all the time, getting into fights with people and messing up public places etc etc. Of course my parents talked to me the first few times. But what finally knocked sense into my bull-headed head was a beating by my father when he couldn't take it anymore. I would still hate him nowadays if there wasn't a good balance of yin and yang though. I have had very good times with my father prior and after beatings, too. He has been teaching me so much, I can never pay him back in any way. When I realised that, I never received any beatings anymore as my whole character has changed into a well-mannered guy.

My sister was never beaten by my parents, though. Of course not... she is the girl. Grrrr...!

If I look at my younger brothers now though, they also very rarely are beaten. Can't even remember the last time. Why? Because they learn from their elder brothers. I teach them stuff and they are obviously more intelligent than me when I was at their age, as they listen without a beating, lol!

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 03 Apr 2006, 14:19

Tom2681 wrote: I used to be the quiet kid in school (many people thought there was something seriously wrong with me)

What are you saying? There isnt!?!?

tom2681 · Post by **tom2681** » 03 Apr 2006, 14:28

Contrary to popular belief, I'm quite normal.

I just happen to disagree about everything with everybody, that's all.

"If you believe you're right, then you're probably right.
If everybody believes you're right, then you're probably wrong.
Believe in yourself, always."

Mordib · Post by **Mordib** » 03 Apr 2006, 14:59

Tom, would you therefore agree with the following statement:

a child who does something they already know to be wrong (and fully understand why its wrong) will not be discouraged from doing that act again if given physical punishment

m.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 03 Apr 2006, 15:01

I agree with a lot of the sentiments in the original paragraph.

The better a person behaves the less need for punishment and reprimand.

That's the only way some can learn.

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 03 Apr 2006, 15:04

Tom2681 wrote:Contrary to popular belief, I'm quite normal.

Yi; Reads Tom's post, then checks out Tom's favourite movies listed in his sig...

'Yeah... 100% normal...

(!)'

tom2681 · Post by **tom2681** » 03 Apr 2006, 15:13

Mordib wrote:Tom, would you therefore agree with the following statement:
a child who does something they already know to be wrong (and fully understand why its wrong) will not be discouraged from doing that act again if given physical punishment

100%. if he does something wrong and he knows it's wrong, then he's hopeless. Punishment will only frustrate him and make him want to do it again.
The best thing to do is to leave him alone and hope that he will think about it.

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 03 Apr 2006, 15:41

Tom2681 wrote:
Mordib wrote:Tom, would you therefore agree with the following statement:
a child who does something they already know to be wrong (and fully understand why its wrong) will not be discouraged from doing that act again if given physical punishment
100%. if he does something wrong and he knows it's wrong, then he's hopeless. Punishment will only frustrate him and make him want to do it again.
The best thing to do is to leave him alone and hope that he will think about it.

I totally DONT agree with Tom. A kid KNOWS he does something wrong, still does it, and the parents should just let it slide? Ow hell no!

If my kid kicks an animal, bullies another kid, steals money from my wallet, or whatever... I will most certainly NOT let it slide. And trust me, he will NOT do it again. Too many parents dont take responsibilty when their kids misbehave, which makes them think the parents either dont care, or that the crime isnt all that bad. Either way it's a wrong signal. And I dont give a shit if I'd have to give the RIGHT signal to that kid a hundred or a thousand times, cause I will not just tolerate that bullshit and let it slide.

I'm not a very hard or strict person, and I get on very well with most kids and teens ... but they always know when they might go too far... I'll just give them a stare or a short 'behave!' comment, and usually they respond well to that...
I dont treat kids like 'kids' , but just like any other person, as in I show them the proper respect instead of approaching them like lil kids or babies, or as 'teens'. I think when you approach them in a mature way, they will also respond in a simular way.

I went back to my old neighbourhood a couple of weeks ago to play some football, and I was happy to see all the familiar faces again, but especially that the basic rules of the street that I introduced there (no spitting ON the field, ANYONE can join (regardless of age, we will just fit them in)) etc etc, was still in effect. A guy not familiar with our customs spat on the ground and all the other guys confronted him about it, which made me quite happy. I treated everyone there always with respect, including the young kids, bringing them into the game etc, and I'm happy that that vibe has basically stayed the same while I was gone, and the older kids have taken that attitude from my generation, and are now also treating the young kids in that same way...

edit: Ow... but whenever there was a bad apple running around back then, we'd just kick his feet from under him and warn him to behave or get lost.

Once there was this kid, a couple of years younger then me, picking on an even younger kid, claiming the younger kid had stolen his ball... so he shoved and kicked the younger kid a bit... I warned him a couple of time, he didnt respond, I sweeped him, gave hima hand and helped him up :' ur gonna act normal now?' and afterwards he behaved.

That was kind of how things were done in my old neighbourhood. You dont pick on people, show normal respect, and just have fun and play football... simple. I know thats not the case everywhere, but I'm glad we had that attitude in my neighbourhood.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 03 Apr 2006, 17:50

Yi, were you in the Mafia by any chance...?

Shen · Post by **Shen** » 03 Apr 2006, 19:19

i do think values are lacking in bringing up a child these days, most are just dragged up.

although i was agood kid in essence i had times when i was naughty and threw tantrums, and sometimes i got a slap for it, i soon stopped doing what it was i was doing wrong. usually though we were just forbidden to go an play out or have treats. but most importantly we were taught that respect is needed for everyone and everything, breaking something purposly would get us a grounding for a week or so, disrespecting your elders or someone who was disabled or was racist to someone and such was likely to get you grounded and slapped. my parents are older (my dads 62) and i think we were brought up with the older generations ideals. today i watch my sister with her kids and i am suprised at the difference, her kids are hit everytime they do something wrong, yelled at constantly called all sors of names and yet still behave like little shits. even to the stage that being hit, yelled at and so they just laugh in her face, with the words "that didnt hurt" yell back and even hit her back. and she is telling us always that she doesnt know what to do, becuase unlike our parents who rarely yelled at us but rather explained why what we did was wrong and why we shouldnt do it she just shouts at them with something like "you little shit get upstairs to your room now!" how are they gonna learn from that?

for me i think that raising a child the right way there should be a balance...no child should be hit all the time for everything, but i think the occasional slap when they do something bad does work. for me it was such a shock when my father slapped me across the back of the legs that i shut up screaming held his hand and walked round in silence with him. if im honest when i babysit my nephews if they are incredibly bad i give them short, sharp smack and they usually calm down, of course the elder one just screams more and acts like i just stabbed him, but thats just him lol. if i were to ever have kids i would be sure to raise them the way i was raised, to respect people and everything, no matter what, even if they dont respect you aswel las to be polite and such other vlaues that seem to be sadly lacking today.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 03 Apr 2006, 19:38

My parents rarely hit me... but then I was mostly a good kid.

Coincidence?

the68monkey · Post by **the68monkey** » 04 Apr 2006, 00:13

I definitely don't think physical violence is the answer here. As a parent, I think the best way to bring up good, respectful kids is 1) to have good communication and open dialogue, as Tom says, and 2) have a firm system of rewards and consequences. My kids act up? They don't get beaten; they lose a privilege, like a favorite TV show or the like. That way they're learning to make the right decisions and suffer consequences that get the point across without physically or psychologically torturing them.

And yes, before you ask, I do have fantastic kids. They're excellent, respectful students at school and in public. If they are frustrated or angry, they know to take it out in an appropriate manner at home. And if they don't, they know they'll suffer the consequences of losing something they don't care to give up.

Shen · Post by **Shen** » 04 Apr 2006, 00:35

i think its hard als oto decide becuase of the personality of the child, if you have a good child who has an understanding of right and wrong and so forth then smacking/beating is rarely necessary, but how far does verbal communication go?

i have 5 bothers and sisters, and of course life wasnt always perfect, always arguing and squaballing, but never naything serious, however one of my sisters got into a bad crowd and began runnign away, and telling lies that our parents beat her and stuff, she often dissapeared for 2/3 weeks at a time, leaving my parents frantic with worry, throughout the time she ran away (over a period of 2-3 years) they did nothing but try and help, talk about her feelings, ressure her they loved her etc. etc. the reply: she just got owrse, mum would see her in the street and speak to her and get a reply similar to "fuck you bitch" after one time she went missing for 2 weeks my mom saw her, and got the usual torrent of verbal abuse, and my mom lost it, and hit her as hard as she could across the face...the result, a few days later she came home and that was the end to her running away...the thing was that no matter how muc hthey tried the usual tactics of talking, or takign away something, she just got worse, she even put herself into a care home...but the hit shocked her into realizing that what she did was hurting her family and stuff.

in this case i think sometimes theo dd smack is needed to keep your kids in line. for me its i verbally warn my nepces/nephews 3 times that if they keep up i will smack their bums, and explain to them why they shoudnt do this. if they kep up doing what i told them not to, then they get a smack. i dont lay into them of course but just a quick smack across the arse and they get sat on the stairs for 5 minutes. they rarely act up now, becuase they know that if they are good they get rewarded with fun stuff and if they are bad they go to the stairs, infact i only remember one time where i actually go to the third warnign and he got a smack, which was when he started kicking me in the shins in temper...and they are graet kids to be with 90% of the time even if they are a little annoying

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 04 Apr 2006, 01:39

If my kid said "fuck you" to me they'd need a team of doctors to remove my foot from their arse!

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 05 Apr 2006, 15:39

Markgway wrote:My parents rarely hit me... but then I was mostly a good kid.

Coincidence?

I was never beaten either, sometimes I was shouted at or got a slap if I was naughty and stuff, but violence was never used (I mean beatings). If a parent uses beatings/threats as a substitute for explaining to the kid WHY they have done something wrong, and teaching them about life there is something very wrong (IMO).

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 05 Apr 2006, 15:58

I was hit once by my dad, cause he thought I had sweared at him (like 'dick' or something'), and was hit on a couple of occasions by my mom. The most severe beating I got was when she was a bit highstrung, and she thought me and my sister had a fight, so she came downstairs and started wailing into me... of which I blocked pretty much everything for about a minute, then had enough and gave her a smack back. Me and my sister werent in a fight btw. I changed the channel, and my sister being a lil bitch, made a huge fuss about it be screaming on top of her lungs. So I was innocent of all charges.

Ow... and when I was a little kid my mom used to throw a cup of water in my face whenever (she felt) I was bad, but then I'd just block/smack the cup in such a way before she could throw it at me, that the water landed in her own face, so she never tried it again...

And once my grandfather spanked me... no idea why.

Shen · Post by **Shen** » 05 Apr 2006, 16:08

Yi-Long wrote: then had enough and gave her a smack back.

lol!! if i ever hit my parents i would get such a beating, my mom has a mean left hand, when she slapped my sister her headphones flew off her head and landed across the street,

we were never beaten, just slapped, which was very rare anyway, i think i got a slap like 3 times. once for having a tantrum in the street, and the other two i dont remember why.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 05 Apr 2006, 16:13

Markgway wrote:If my kid said "fuck you" to me they'd need a team of doctors to remove my foot from their arse!

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 05 Apr 2006, 16:23

Well, obviously I didnt enjoy or feel proud of me smacking my mother (and its not like I knocked her out or anything), but like I said, she was in a raging frenzy wailing at me non-stop, and after about a minute orso (and I had tried to get away but she followed me) I just saw an opening and automatically went for it. More a reflex/reaction then anything else ...

I dont think I've done anything wrong in that situation, but obviously it's not something I would be proud of either...
However, if I should ever smack around on my kid without any reason, I'd hope they'd smack me back to my senses as well...

I once did knock out my little sister though.

We had gotten in a fight (only words) at home during lunchtime, and when we were back at school (she was a couple of grades lower then me) I suddenly got grabbed from behind by a big fat kid in my class (I was pretty much the smallst kid in school, so everyone there was bigger and fatter then me), and my sister came up and gave me a punch in the mouth. Needless to say I immediately broke free from the big fat kid's grip and smashed her in the face in such a way that she went down like a plank of wood and she was carried by her friends inside.

I also should have kicked the big fat kid's ass come to think of it, but I dont think I did...

I didnt get punished for it btw. Apparently a teacher had seen her hit me first or something. I never heard anything about it from school or a teacher or whatever.

Again, not something to be 'proud' of, although she did have it coming, so again I dont think I was 'wrong' or anything...

Shen · Post by **Shen** » 05 Apr 2006, 16:30

hitting your mom makes more sense if she was out of control, but still we'd get such a hiding if we did that regardless lol.

hehe i knocked my brother out
he was tryign to steal something from me or something similar, so i punched him, and he fell backwards and hit his head on the radiator and got knocked out. and spent the night in the hospital. he never lived it down since hes like 5yrs older than me. we always used to fight, when i was little they were so mean to me, one broke my arm when i was like 4yrs old, and they were always giving me sly punches and stuff, so we fought alot.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 05 Apr 2006, 18:23

Yi-Long wrote:And once my grandfather spanked me... no idea why.

Er, let's not go there, shall we?