Stop The Fur Trade

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 29 Mar 2006, 10:25

That advert is horrible

EvaUnit02 · Post by **EvaUnit02** » 29 Mar 2006, 12:39

Bradavon wrote:A live sentient being a resource, maybe I should refer to you as merely a resource?

...and that's how those of a lesser stasis are treated by those with power in some parts of the world, which is a sad reality. We should consider human rights LONG before those of animals. Sweat shops, child labour, being imprisoned for free thinking... Yeah, those bother me far more than whether KFC uses free range or battery chickens. All these actions of these dudes protesting has no real effect in reality. Puff Daddy will keep on making his zillion dollar fur coats and tossers will keep buying them. They're fighting a losing battle, so better off focusing our efforts on helping out our own species.

The world is going to hell in a hand basket, not even all the moaning in the world is going to prevent that. The Earth is doomed no matter what you do. Even if we slow down it'll be just be delaying the inevitable.

Treated humanely keep living in your ivory tower. They're treated anything but humanely for the most part, yes humanely to an extent but for the most part yeah right.

Yeah, yeah. ALL (yes, I am hypocrite, as is everyone else) of us in the first world are in our ivory towers. We'll just pretend that the atrocities happening to other humans in other parts of the world aren't there and turn our attention to whether the Japanese should hunt whales or not. Out of mind is out of sight is the status quo sadly.

What ever? Many work places would frown upon you if you didn't wear leather shoes. Me I don't but then I've found leather alternatives, which look and feel like leather.

What are they made from then? Synthetic materials? Synthetic materials are made from plastic, plastic is made from fossil fuels, fossil fuels are a limited resource. One could argue that you're better off wearing leather then, but virtually everything is made of plastic these days. So basically we're all damned if we do, damned if we don't.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 29 Mar 2006, 12:43

Brad shall I alter the links for you?

Mordib · Post by **Mordib** » 29 Mar 2006, 12:49

What are they made from then? Synthetic materials? Synthetic materials are made from plastic, plastic is made from fossil fuels, fossil fuels are a limited resource. One could argue that you're better off wearing leather then, but virtually everything is made of plastic these days. So basically we're all damned if we do, damned if we don't.

first sensible thing anyone (including myself) has written in this entire thread

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 29 Mar 2006, 12:51

Eva would your argument of "humans have more rights than animals" also apply to the great apes like baboons and chimps?
I'm sorry but I cant agree with what you say

What about endangered animals? They of all must be protected, not just see what they have that can be extracted for our personal use

tom2681 · Post by **tom2681** » 29 Mar 2006, 13:01

Eva wrote:We should consider human rights LONG before those of animals. Sweat shops, child labour, being imprisoned for free thinking...

I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree with you.

I have no problem whatsoever with the "atrocities" that you've listed. Sweatshops, child labour and all that... those are humans abusing humans. These people can always either fight back or kill themselves.
-People always have a way out.
-It's People vs People (They're on the same link in the food chain, so there's nothing unfair about that).

However, People abusing animals is simply unacceptable. While a human can defend itself, an animal cannot.
For this reason alone, hunting is a much more severe offense than murder IMO (A man can either reason / fight his attacker, a rabbit can't).

Mordib · Post by **Mordib** » 29 Mar 2006, 13:10

humans invented the concept of rights. no living thing has any natural rights whatsoever apart from those afforded it by us. As a race we are so petty minded. We seem to think that us wiping out species actually makes a difference to the world when humanity and all its effects are just a small blip in a much bigger picture.

the real reason for looking after nature and minimising our damage on the planet and other creatures is that minimising damage will prolong our own existence (as in the race in general, not individuals). We are the only ones that give a shit, or are built in such a way that 'giving a shit' is a statement that makes any sense.

Personally I say kill all endagered animals, destroy the ozone, chop down all the trees, so that nature with our help finally wipes us off the face of the earth and anywhere else we might inhabit. Not that there'll be anyone left to care but life would go on, nature would continue to happen, for all our self importance we wont have made any difference in the long run at all.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 29 Mar 2006, 13:13

Tom are you saying you agree with sweatshops and child labour?? I don't.
Can a child fight back if its' being tormented by a cruel person? No. Thats horrible. Its not always possible to fight back.

tom2681 · Post by **tom2681** » 29 Mar 2006, 13:15

I'm not saying I agree with it. I just don't care.
What people do to people doesn't concern me.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 29 Mar 2006, 13:23

Mordib thats an interesting point.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 29 Mar 2006, 15:34

I think Tom should train his cats into a lethal cat army who hunt down those who are cruel to animals. They already know how to use guns. We've seen pictures.

I don't approve of human abuses anymore than I do animal ones, especially children, but as Tom says animals don't have the same ability to fight back or make choices. It's not a level playing field when a baby Seal crawls along the ice whilst some piece of shit clubs it to death. When these cunts want to fight Tigers bare-handed... then I'll reconsider.

Shen · Post by **Shen** » 29 Mar 2006, 16:40

how about we replace all clothes with stuff made from hemp? no im not a junkie, but hemp isa great rescource that can be used to pretty much everythign from fuel to clothes and fully renewable. sadly very underestimated and mislabelled

i mean i dont advocate the killing of animals or humans, i mean we make a huge cry about when a tiger kills a human, we have the tiger shot, but when we kill 1000's of animals what happens to us? nothing. killing is wrong, no matter how you look at it, who gave us the right to decide what lives and dies? most people seem to forget we dont own this planet we merely share it with millions of other species.

you dont go around wearing a dead human skin, so why go around wearing a dead animal fur...i'd like to see that...i wonder the outcry then...

for me ALL life is equal irrespective of species, and honestly the way humans behave, i wonder why their lives are important to me, but they just are.

EvaUnit02 · Post by **EvaUnit02** » 30 Mar 2006, 04:19

grim_tales wrote:Eva would your argument of "humans have more rights than animals" also apply to the great apes like baboons and chimps?

Hell no. My definition of human is strictly for Homo Sapiens. I refuse to recognise higher primates and dolphins as sentient or intelligent, they're just smarter than average animals. I'll change my tune the day I hear of say a chimp going up to some dude and saying something like "Hey there cousin, I just evolved and would to have a chat with you."

I'm sorry but I cant agree with what you say What about endangered animals? They of all must be protected, not just see what they have that can be extracted for our personal use

You can protect the endangered species if you want. It's man's fault that they're endangered in the first place, but the fundamentals of Darwinism is survival of the fitest. If they can't adapt then it's their problem. It's not my problem if natural evolution can't keep up with man's rapid progress. New species can inherit what's left of the Earth once mankind destroys itself (which could be through numerous scenarios), which won't be too long with the rate at which things are going.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 30 Mar 2006, 12:18

I know that, Survival of the fittest is about adapting to differences in animal environment, and surely relates to animals v other animals - not animals v humans. Once humans are introduced, its no longer a level playing field.
You think dolphins will somehow adapt one day and take revenge on humans like in the Simpsons Hallowen episode?

Is it right for man to hunt foxes with hounds? No it bloody isn't, its' immaterial whether they can somehow "adapt" to run faster from the hounds.
As Shen says we just share this planet with millions of species, what you've said Eva reminds me of the "Humans v Dolphins" bit from Hitch-Hikers Guide (the book)

Clubbing seals to death is horrific, whats this nonsense about the seals eating all the fish? They've got to eat!

Humans overfish far more than seals do, and I'm sure there are plenty of other jobs in Canada other than being a fisherman.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 30 Mar 2006, 14:51

Shen wrote:how about we replace all clothes with stuff made from hemp? no im not a junkie, but hemp isa great rescource that can be used to pretty much everythign from fuel to clothes and fully renewable. sadly very underestimated and mislabelled

But then won't students start smoking their own clothes?

killing is wrong, no matter how you look at it, who gave us the right to decide what lives and dies? most people seem to forget we dont own this planet we merely share it with millions of other species.

Amen to that.

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 30 Mar 2006, 16:38

Killing is wrong, but in some cases it's justified/understandable.

My mother in law just got ripped off by some scummy bastards who lied to her, and having sign her a contract, and me personally have problems with my PC and the fucking bastards who should fix it, dont call me back like they promised me to do... which is REALLY pissing me off as it's not the first time.
When people like that exist, you can always expect other people to take revenge on them. Personally, I'm contemplating revenge on them as we speak. it might be a brick through their window, or fucking up their car or their face or whatever, but this shit cost me 30 bucks last time, and I'm not going to let that happen again...

I could never kill an animal (unless it attacks me or something) but certain bastards who think they can treat people like shit, deserve to be punished.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 31 Mar 2006, 12:04

Yeah but not by murder surely Yi?

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 31 Mar 2006, 12:39

grim_tales wrote:Yeah but not by murder surely Yi?

No, obviously not, but the examples I gave dont warrant murder as a revenge. But if say, someone kills/rapes your girl, or stomps on your kitty or whatever, that WOULD be a good reason (for me) to take justice into my own hand and get revenge, as in killing them.

What gives me the right to do so? Their actions. My hurt. It's natural instincts I guess.
People often wonder why people in the middle east cant come to terms and forgive and work on a better future: could you do that if ur sister was hit by a missile? or your father got shot at a control post for having a bag? Or if your classmates get bombed on their way to school cause they were in the wrong bus?

Pain, and thus the need for revenge, is basic instinct I guess...
We can all pretend we are civilised and way better then animals and shit, but when push comes to shove, everyone has a line others cant cross, or else shit will happen.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 31 Mar 2006, 13:23

If someone killed/raped my girl, I'd certainly want justice yeah, like a lengthy sentence for the kiler, and I'd be pissed and *think* about revenge, but if I actually did it and killed the guy, then I might go to prison/be shot by firing squad or something, and it wouldnt make me any different from the first guy. You'd just have a cycle of revenge that would keep going on.
I really dont know whether I could bring myself to kill anyone, this isnt like a movie

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 31 Mar 2006, 14:25

grim_tales wrote:If someone killed/raped my girl, I'd certainly want justice yeah, like a lengthy sentence for the kiler, and I'd be pissed and *think* about revenge, but if I actually did it and killed the guy, then I might go to prison/be shot by firing squad or something, and it wouldnt make me any different from the first guy. You'd just have a cycle of revenge that would keep going on.
I really dont know whether I could bring myself to kill anyone, this isnt like a movie

Alot of people give that argument: 'it would make you the same as that guy'. I dont agree with that. His only motive was money or being horney or whatever. He made the first BAD move and hurt an innocent person. Which makes him a bad/guilty person.
If I'd kill the guy, I wouldnt be killing an innocent guy, but someone who had it coming. Who DESERVES punishment in one way or the other. It's not the same.

Does that make me bad? Maybe... but fact is that I would never hurt an innocent person. Plus as I said, pain and revenge go hand in hand, and it's human nature to want revenge on someone that hurts you or your family. Just because we have laws and policemen, doesnt mean our basic instincts are gone. It's natural to want to get back at someone that hurts you.
Why would the police or a judge have more right to punish that guy, as I would have? That's ridiculous. They're outsiders who wouldnt be feeling what I'm feeling.

I often get very mad when dutch judges only give minor punishments to youths that have gang-raped some girls (Rotterdam) and such. I'd say, let a group of young thugs rape that judge's own daughter, and THEN see how he'd punish them. In Rotterdam a bunch of young rapists (repeated rapes, on young/very young girls) only got a maximum of 1-2 years in prison, and maybe then it was only youth-prison.

If I were that girl's daddy, those guys would be dead. Pure and simple.

Also, I wouldnt have a huge problem with me going to jail over such a thing (revenge) if my girl just died. Hell, I'd probably shoot myself right after I'd whack the guy anyway, but going to jail for about 8 years orso is something I'd be willing to do, knowing I took revenge for my girl.
Obviously, I'd prefer taking revenge in a way that I would not be blamed for it., but perhaps in that mindset I wouldnt even care about that.

I could never kill a person for money or whatever, but when a person is plain 'evil' as in harming my girlfriend, an animal for fun, or abusing kids or whatever... I'd probably AT LEAST give him a bunch of smackings to the face. If he dies from that, he dies. I dont care. He had it coming.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 31 Mar 2006, 14:43

Yeah, but if you killed the rapists, wouldnt their relatives want revenge because you killed them? OK they were bastards sure, but their family would (maybe) still see them as such.

Why has this thread gone from the fur trade to punishment?

tom2681 · Post by **tom2681** » 31 Mar 2006, 14:47

Yep, back on topic:

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 31 Mar 2006, 14:52

grim_tales wrote:Yeah, but if you killed the rapists, wouldnt their relatives want revenge because you killed them? OK they were bastards sure, but their family would (maybe) still see them as such.
Why has this thread gone from the fur trade to punishment?

I doubt that would be the case. If my best friend was an evil bastard that went around killing and raping people, and someone killed him, I'd wouldnt bother getting revenge for him as I'd feel he'd have it coming.

(My best friend is a very good guy btw

)

If you're friends with a girl that constantly cheats on her boyfriends, and suddenly she herself gets cheated on and she's heartbroken, you wouldnt hate the guy for doing that to her, would you? You'd just think:'serves you right'.

I feel feelings of revenge only get that extreme when you feel a huge injustice was done.
When you can 'understand' someone's actions, it becomes much harder to want to take revenge.

I once got in a fight with a group of guys, and kicked one guys knee in and another one in the head (I think twice). Later a big ass guy confronted me about it as he was the guy's friend. I just said to him: listen, they were being dickheads so they had it coming. I dont give a shit if it's your friend or not. Anyway... the big guy was threatening a couple times more whenever I ran into him, but then we met at the barbershop so he sat down besides me and we just had a talk (not even about the incident btw), and afterwards everything was fine between us and he always greeted me politely in the street.
The guy wanted revenge cause he only knew I had kicked his friend's ass...
Later, he got to know me a little bit as a normal guy so he could also understand my actions better.

I think that would play a big part in someones urge to take revenge or not.

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 31 Mar 2006, 14:54

Tom2681 wrote:Yep, back on topic:

Wow... that guy is having a good day

I have to say, if wearing fur means goodlooking chicks will go naked in the streets to demonstrate, I'll be buying a couple of fur coats for my girlfriend tomorrow

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 31 Mar 2006, 15:03

Continuing your quote:

Homer: Kids, kids.. I'm not going to die. That only happens to bad people
Bart: What about Abraham Lincoln?
Homer: Er.. he sold poisoned milk to schoolchildren.