Road to Guantanamo - Nominated for the Golden Bear

BiscLimpkit · Post by **BiscLimpkit** » 11 Mar 2006, 15:07

I saw this and yeah, it was certainly an eye opener. I don't like how someone can be held in those conditions for so long, without charge. But the whole idea is to mentally break them, however it may not even be that effective. People could be scared into falsely admitting connections with terroist activity.

I was discussing this with a few people and they have basically told me that those three British muslims are/were terrorists (in their opinion).

I don't know what to believe.

But entering Afganistan during a danger period is very suspicious.

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 12 Mar 2006, 00:10

BiscLimpkit wrote:But entering Afganistan during a danger period is very suspicious.

I, a Muslim living in Europe, was in Iraq 1 and a half year ago.

Suspicious, isn't it?

How about Nick Berg, who was no soldier and yet he was in Iraq when he was captured and beheaded. Can people say that he was guilty, because he was in Iraq during a dangerous period?

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 12 Mar 2006, 00:46

Of course being in Afghanistan doesn't making you guilty... but I'm sure I read that their explainations were pretty dodgy yet go unquestioned by the filmmakers who take their stories as pure fact. I wish I would take a note of where I read shit.

BiscLimpkit · Post by **BiscLimpkit** » 12 Mar 2006, 00:49

thelostdragon wrote: I, a Muslim living in Europe, was in Iraq 1 and a half year ago. Suspicious, isn't it?

How about Nick Berg, who was no soldier and yet he was in Iraq when he was captured and beheaded. Can people say that he was guilty, because he was in Iraq during a dangerous period?

People enter Afganistan and Iraq all the time. I'm sure most can provide an explaination on being there... news reporters, ex-pats, even you LD. Of course I'm not accusing them of unlawful activity.

However IIRC (please correct me if I'm wrong), didn't these guys say that they wanted to learn Arabic and one wanted to learn computer skills? Did they have to make this trip, during such a fragile period, to do that?

I'm not accusing these guys of anything. After I saw this drama/documentary, my heart really went out to them and their families. I was just wondering what made them make that trip across the border, at a time when the US was planning to bomb. If they can claim that they were sightseeing then fair enough, they are innocent and I'm happy/relieved (although I would think that they were all seriously stupid).

BiscLimpkit · Post by **BiscLimpkit** » 12 Mar 2006, 00:51

Markgway wrote:Of course being in Afghanistan doesn't making you guilty... but I'm sure I read that their explainations were pretty dodgy yet go unquestioned by the filmmakers who take their stories as pure fact. I wish I would take a note of where I read shit.

Well said Mark. That's exactly what I think.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 12 Mar 2006, 00:55

Ow, I recall something...

One guy said he went to Afghanistan to learn a language that isn't even taught there; yet there was a school local to him in England. Another said he wanted to study Computing(!) Would YOU got to Afghanistan during a war to learn Computing, LD??

That's not to say this makes them guilty of anything (other than stupidity).

BiscLimpkit · Post by **BiscLimpkit** » 12 Mar 2006, 00:58

Markgway wrote:Ow, I recall something...

One guy said he went to Afghanistan to learn a language that isn't even taught there; yet there was a school local to him in England. Another said he wanted to study Computing(!) Would YOU got to Afghanistan during a war to learn Computing, LD??

That's not to say this makes them guilty of anything (other than stupidity).

Once again, spot on.

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 12 Mar 2006, 01:23

Markgway wrote:Would YOU got to Afghanistan during a war to learn Computing, LD??

The fact that you are asking me this question makes me think that you believe that I am the two guys' lawyer or so.

Besides... nobody knows why they went there, besides them and God. Maybe they each went to rescue their second wives and they didn't want their first ones to know. LOL! Could by anything really.

Shen · Post by **Shen** » 12 Mar 2006, 12:48

is the reason they went there imporant really? shouldnt it be more important that they were treated such way by supposedly civilized countries, yet were treted worse than dogs... innocent or guilty no-one should be treated this way.

i wanted to go to iraq during this time, why? becuase i wanted to see for myself how much the troops were screwing up the place, what they were really doing...but would that be suspicious or only if i were muslim?

for me it wouldnt matter what you were there for, even if they supported osama and alqueda, they should never have been treated this way.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 12 Mar 2006, 19:23

thelostdragon wrote:The fact that you are asking me this question makes me think that you believe that I am the two guys' lawyer or so.

It was only because you mentioned about your going to Iraq.

Besides... nobody knows why they went there, besides them and God.

We can have our suspicions though, right... Just because someone isn't charged doesn't make them innocent. It just means there might not be enough evidence.

Maybe they each went to rescue their second wives and they didn't want their first ones to know. LOL! Could by anything really.

Well, at least that would make some sense...

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 12 Mar 2006, 19:27

Shen wrote:is the reason they went there imporant really?

Yes.

shouldnt it be more important that they were treated such way by supposedly civilized countries, yet were treted worse than dogs...

Not MORE important.

innocent or guilty no-one should be treated this way.

I wouldn't go that far. Having your limbs blown off by a terrorist bomb is a tad worse than a few nudie snaps with a hooker. It's wrong to treat suspects in this way but let's not go overboard...

i wanted to go to iraq during this time, why? becuase i wanted to see for myself how much the troops were screwing up the place, what they were really doing...but would that be suspicious or only if i were muslim?

Odd, rather than suspicious, I'd say... The news reports do me fine. The Middle East is the LAST place on earth I'd want to visit.

for me it wouldnt matter what you were there for, even if they supported osama and alqueda, they should never have been treated this way.

Depends on your definition of "supported"? If you mean 'agreed with in principle' then OK, but if you mean 'went there to back him' then it does matter.

Shen · Post by **Shen** » 12 Mar 2006, 20:02

Markgway wrote:
I wouldn't go that far. Having your limbs blown off by a terrorist bomb is a tad worse than a few nudie snaps with a hooker. It's wrong to treat suspects in this way but let's not go overboard...

of course suicide bombing and terrorist bombing sucks, its the darker side of humanity, but then again our respnse to that isnt much better either, we go and bomb them back.

but aside the obvious degredation to the prisoner a few nudie pics with a hooker its also insulting and just wrong, to go against someone beliefs in that way.

Odd, rather than suspicious, I'd say... The news reports do me fine. The Middle East is the LAST place on earth I'd want to visit.

unfortunatley for me the news reports are bollocks, half truths made to look like the whole truth, too many people accept the news as the absolute truth or "it'll do" when theres really a lot more to every story.

and it maybe odd but we allowed this to happen and so i want to know what i am to take responsibilty for, and thats a hell of a lot of shit that the west has to take responsibitly for...(im not saying the east is completley innocent either!)

maybe the reason why they went there does matter, but its pretty important that they aretreated so shittily just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, i mean its the whole torture thing, can you rely on a confession gotten by torture? if i remember correctly after months of torture one admitted to being a fighter, after denying it and his friends denying it.

i jus t tink the whole "it suspicious to go there in the middle of a war" thing is no justification for what happened

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 12 Mar 2006, 20:21

Markgway wrote:It was only because you mentioned about your going to Iraq.

I went there because I wanted to see things with my own eyes. I'm sure that wouldn't sound convincing to CIA agents if I told them so after they kidnapped me.

I wouldn't go that far. Having your limbs blown off by a terrorist bomb is a tad worse than a few nudie snaps with a hooker.

Maybe to you and to a lot of other non-Muslims. This way of thinking (that all our norms in the West apply to everyone else) just shows that the West does not understand anything about the East which makes it just more wrong to invade it.

Ask any Muslim who was brought up in the East. 80% would rather have their legs blown away, than being put naked on the floor with other men, cremed in shit, and with dogs and laughing enemy soldiers around him. On top of that being shot by flashlight cameras and later, in case you survive or aren't in Guantanamo, seeing your pics go around the world media

Odd, rather than suspicious, I'd say... The news reports do me fine. The Middle East is the LAST place on earth I'd want to visit.

The news reports? LOL! Do you have any idea how big the Middle East is? Have you ever looked onto a map and compared the war zones in the Middle East with the actual size of it? That's like saying, "Europe is the last place I'd want to visit, because I saw the images on the news about Bosnia or Jugoslavia."
I'm sure there is a place in the Middle East where even Mark would be comfortable to visit. Maybe Bahrain, where the F1 race was held today, or Dubai, where 85% of the residents are foreigners.

Recent pictures of Dubai:
http://www.dubai-city.de/bildergalerie/index01.htm

I don't blame you for thinking so though, Mark. The media has clearly succeeded with its manipulation. I know you're not the only one who thinks like that due to the media. I meet people everyday who tell me the same thing and when I asked them how their own experience was, they all tell me that they have never been there actually.

BiscLimpkit · Post by **BiscLimpkit** » 12 Mar 2006, 21:07

I think I made the mistake of using the word "suspicious". Like Mark, I should've used the word "odd" instead.

I would like to stress clearly that I am not accusing these guys of anything. Just that their reasons for entering Afganistan are peculiar. It has nothing to do with them being muslim.

If Mark, a young Scot, went to Afganistan and gave me the same reasons for going... I'd also have some doubt.

But enough about this. As mentioned, the documentary is fundamentally about the atrocities inside Guantanamo and its disgusting conditions. I think the whole "guilty until proven innocent" methodology is wrong.

BiscLimpkit · Post by **BiscLimpkit** » 12 Mar 2006, 22:20

Shen wrote: i jus t tink the whole "it suspicious to go there in the middle of a war" thing is no justification for what happened

Sorry for repeating myself but yeah, you're correct.

BiscLimpkit · Post by **BiscLimpkit** » 12 Mar 2006, 22:22

thelostdragon wrote: The news reports? LOL! Do you have any idea how big the Middle East is? Have you ever looked onto a map and compared the war zones in the Middle East with the actual size of it? That's like saying, "Europe is the last place I'd want to visit, because I saw the images on the news about Bosnia or Jugoslavia."
I'm sure there is a place in the Middle East where even Mark would be comfortable to visit. Maybe Bahrain, where the F1 race was held today, or Dubai, where 85% of the residents are foreigners.

Valid point but to be fair, I'm sure Mark meant the danger zones of the Middle East.

I'm itching to go to Dubai, if it didn't cost my annual salary to stay in one of those luxuary resorts. 8)

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 12 Mar 2006, 22:28

Man, even Jordan, the country I am from is quite nice... ok... it should be affordable. Personally, I am tired of it, as I know the place just as well as I know my surroundings in Germany, but each one of my friends I took there with me liked it very much there. Even Hollywood has shot quite a few films there, not only "Lawrence of Arabia", he he he!

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 12 Mar 2006, 23:52

BiscLimpkit wrote: I'm sure Mark meant the danger zones of the Middle East.

Yeah, I did... I meant "Middle East" in inverted commas... and of course specifically any place run by facist dictators (Saddam-types), religious fanatics (Sharia Law) and corrupt governments (well, more corrupt than our own at least...)

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 13 Mar 2006, 00:02

thelostdragon wrote:I went there because I wanted to see things with my own eyes. I'm sure that wouldn't sound convincing to CIA agents if I told them so after they kidnapped me.

That was a pretty risky thing to do. Were you not visiting relatives or friends? I mean, if I were a soldier and checking your reasons for being in a danger zone, and you told me "to see for myself" I doubt I'd believe it either.

Ask any Muslim who was brought up in the East. 80% would rather have their legs blown away, than being put naked on the floor with other men, cremed in shit, and with dogs and laughing enemy soldiers around him. On top of that being shot by flashlight cameras and later, in case you survive or aren't in Guantanamo, seeing your pics go around the world media

It's humiliating... but at the end of it you still have your body whole. Victims of bombs do not. I don't see how some here can compare. 'Oh no, they pissed on my Quoran!' Like that equates with someone losing their eyesight from a blast. The fact that 80% (as you suggest) of Muslims would rather be blown up than humiliated doesn't seem at all bizarre to you?

That's like saying, "Europe is the last place I'd want to visit, because I saw the images on the news about Bosnia or Jugoslavia."

I wouldn't have gone there either during the troubles. If you don't need to... why bother? Bad enough for those who actually live there.

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 13 Mar 2006, 00:19

Markgway wrote:I mean, if I were a soldier and checking your reasons for being in a danger zone, and you told me "to see for myself" I doubt I'd believe it either.

See? Which is why stupid fuck-ups have happened and people being arrested although not guilty. The situation there is too far out of control for them to settle it with their soldiers.

That's like saying, "Europe is the last place I'd want to visit, because I saw the images on the news about Bosnia or Jugoslavia."
I wouldn't have gone there either during the troubles. If you don't need to... why bother? Bad enough for those who actually live there.

Yes, but you talked about the WHOLE MIDDLE EAST. I'm sure people needed to go to Germany, England, France, Italy etc for business or whatever even during a time of war in Jugoslavia. But they actually went, because they weren't manipulated by the media as much as the West is during the current wars in the Middle East.

Ask any Muslim who was brought up in the East. 80% would rather have their legs blown away, than being put naked on the floor with other men, cremed in shit, and with dogs and laughing enemy soldiers around him. On top of that being shot by flashlight cameras and later, in case you survive or aren't in Guantanamo, seeing your pics go around the world media
It's humiliating... but at the end of it you still have your body whole. Victims of bombs do not. I don't see how some here can compare. 'Oh no, they pissed on my Quoran!' Like that equates with someone losing their eyesight from a blast. The fact that 80% (as you suggest) of Muslims would rather be blown up than humiliated doesn't seem at all bizarre to you?

You clearly haven't got any of my points which is why I'll stop debating. I see no point in going on if I have to say things over and over again repeating myself all the time. I don't expect you to apply my way of thinking to yourself, but to simply accept that there are people on this planet having a different way of life and different values, too. I believe that the Qur'an is the Word of God, which is why I would defend it with my life, no matter if it is MINE or ANYBODY ELSE's.

But maybe it's just the lack of my English or so, I don't know.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 13 Mar 2006, 01:24

thelostdragon wrote:See? Which is why stupid fuck-ups have happened and people being arrested although not guilty. The situation there is too far out of control for them to settle it with their soldiers.

To me the stupid part would be going there in the first place. If someone told me there was a riot happening across town I wouldn't go to "see for myself" and then complain when the cops arrested me under the mistaken impression I'm one of the rioters.

Yes, but you talked about the WHOLE MIDDLE EAST.

Yeah, but I meant troubled areas, not high class resorts, lol. I thought I clarified that in a previous post?

You clearly haven't got any of my points which is why I'll stop debating. I see no point in going on if I have to say things over and over again repeating myself all the time. I don't expect you to apply my way of thinking to yourself, but to simply accept that there are people on this planet having a different way of life and different values, too. I believe that the Qur'an is the Word of God, which is why I would defend it with my life, no matter if it is MINE or ANYBODY ELSE's. But maybe it's just the lack of my English or so, I don't know.

It's not your lack of English, which is excellent btw, but the viewpoint I can't accept. Anyone (of any religion) who puts theology above humanity is to my mind wrong. How can I accept that anymore than you accept my disdain for religion? You're effectively telling me that a 2,000 year old work of fiction (that's just my opinion...) is more important than not only your life but mine. It's frankly offensive if you think about it...

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 13 Mar 2006, 01:43

LOL, as I said... I'll stop debating. Maybe... just maybe... you want to read my post again to see what I'm actually talking about.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 13 Mar 2006, 13:31

Mark have you seen the film? Unfortunately I didnt see it on C4, its' on DVD right?
Mark is right, the reasoning given for going there ARE important yet the reasons givem (going to study computing???) is definitely odd, why would anyone go there in a time of war to study??? I get the impression from posts the film didnt dwell on this. However, it is a fact that how the people were treated in Guantanamo and Abu Graib (sp?) is totally wrong also.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 13 Mar 2006, 18:53

Right. I'm not saying the suspects ARE guilty as I don't know. What I'm criticizing is the film's refusal to investigate ot properly question these matters because it would upset their anti-American agenda.

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 13 Mar 2006, 19:05

I guess they felt the americans had done enough investigations, found them to be innocent (after having locked them up and tortured for god knows how long), and set them free, so maybe they didnt feel the need to adress that issue thouroghly?

I havent seen it yet btw, so I cant really have an opinion about it yet, other then that human rights groups claim that a HUGEeeeeeeeeeee majority of the prisoners in the Abu Graihb prison is innocent.
But even if they ARE guilty (of what?), they dont deserve the treatment they were given. No excuses.
We always like to think of ourselfs as the most civilised people, but we're not.

Bullets 'n' Babes

Road to Guantanamo - Nominated for the Golden Bear

Should law-violating prisons like the one at Guantanamo Bay exist?