The off-topic topic

[Yi-Long]

Off to Indonesia/Bali on Tuesday, best man at my friend's wedding there next saturday.

Have fun. Be careful. Don't tell anyone there you're an atheist (if you are).

[Markgway]

Be careful. Don't tell anyone there you're an atheist (if you are).

Why? What'll happen?

[Yi-Long]

Be careful. Don't tell anyone there you're an atheist (if you are).

Why? What'll happen?

It has something to do with what happened some 50 years orso ago (bloody ugly stuff), and in short the people have been fed with anti-communist propaganda, and 'atheists' are often seen as 'communists' in that country, thus hated.

I don't know the whole deal behind it so I won't pretend to either, but it's just what I heard from people who went there and were advised to keep any 'atheism' secret, for that reason.

A lot (all/most) of atheists in that country can't come out and say they're atheists, but hopefully the freedom of the internet will provide opportunities for everyone to still be themselfs, even if only online, and hopefully it will open up more minds and hearts to respect other opinions and feelings.

[Markgway]

Fuck. You weren't exaggerating.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/ ... story.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/ma ... reedom-aan

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-s ... sia-belief

[saltysam]

i'm a catholic does that make me safe

[Markgway]

i'm a catholic does that make me safe

Apparently. But I'm screwed.

[Yi-Long]

Fuck. You weren't exaggerating.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/ ... story.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/ma ... reedom-aan

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-s ... sia-belief

Yeah, better to have a heads up instead of finding out the hard way

Not sure if I personally would ever 'lie' about me being an etheist or non-believer or whatever. But perhaps the problem some people there run into, is flat-out denying there is a God, which I also wouldn't do, cause I simply don't know if there is one (or many), or not....

I am 'technically' also a 'catholic' btw. Like many, my parents made that decision for me when I was a child who couldn't speak or protest yet, or else surely my first would have been "GET THE FUCK OUTTA HERE WITH THAT BS!!!".

To be fair, there has never been ANY time in my life that I ever felt all the 'God' stuff was actually serious, and it was pretty late on in life that I actually realised that others DO truly believe in a God. Which is fine btw, cause like I said, -I- certainly don't believe there is 1 almighty being out there looking over us, but I certainly wouldn't pretend to know for sure either, and of others find comfort in truly believing there is a God and it somehow manages to live a better life because of it, or find comfort, peace, whatever.... then that's great

[HungFist]

I always wondered how being atheist / non-Christian would affect on some some movie experiences. Christian myths play major roles in films like Raiders of the Lost Ark or The Exorcist. Perhaps, being a Christian, I relate better to that stuff than an atheist would. In comparison, I've always had difficulties with Japanese ghost movies partly because I just can't relate to that stuff.

That being said, like many younger Finns, I'm very much a free style Christian (Lutherian). A Vietnamese friend of mine, who was Catholic, was shocked to learn after a year that I'm Christian. "But I've never seen you go to the church", she said. Well, yeah, I hadn't been to the church for years. My religion is between me and the God, not between me and the church or priests or the bible (which is a nice book, but if you ask me, it's something that was written 2000 years ago...)

Speaking of priests, yeah, there's some real assholes out there, but also lots of really cool guys, like those who sing rock & roll and help youngsters get out of drugs and gangs. Those guys live in the real world (and sometimes have their own history as a gang member or something) and I really respect them.

But that whole "convert or die" bullshit that has been so popular for thousands of years... I don't get it. Doesn't every major religion state you should love and forgive, not hate and kill. It's funny how contradictory these religious psychopaths can be...

As usual for Japanese people, my girlfriend is buddhist/shintoist. That's no problem for me. If she ever wanted to become Christian I'd do my best to help her, but that's her choise. I just keep the door open. Her spending a minute or two saying her prayers in the morning, or refusing to go to the beach during Obon*, and me spending 15 seconds to say my silent prayers in the night before falling asleep... that can all easily fit under one roof.

[Heka]

When I was in Japan this summer many people asked me what's my religion and were surprised when I told them I'm an atheist. Most Japanese people told me that they didn't believe in any “god” but they still followed the traditions.

I on the other hand hate religion, especially the monotheistic ones that preach poisonous dogma that does far more harm than good. Even if someone may get comfort and structure from these religions it doesn't change the fact that they are unture. Most religious people aren't strong enough to debate me or anybody else on the topic because they've never even thought about the possibility that they might be wrong. Most of they answers are “god is real to me and that's enough” which doesn't validate any of the things the religions teach.

I believe most people are good and their just sucked into religion because they don't know any better. Here's two jabs against religion.

Funny.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uS5DaTIF1a0

Serious.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66kPOAQZBzc

I know talking about religion is probably the easiest way to start an argument but to me the truth and trying to get towards it is more important than peoples feelings. I'm not saying my world view is the absolutely the right one but I hate when I'm told I can't even discuss the matter because it's socially unacceptable.

[Markgway]

I always wondered how being atheist / non-Christian would affect on some some movie experiences. Christian myths play major roles in films like Raiders of the Lost Ark or The Exorcist. Perhaps, being a Christian, I relate better to that stuff than an atheist would. In comparison, I've always had difficulties with Japanese ghost movies partly because I just can't relate to that stuff.

I think it's more important to understand those religious myths (meanings and intentions) than be able to 'relate' to them. I love those two films you mention; despite not being Christian myself I fully comprehend what they're about.

Speaking of priests, yeah, there's some real assholes out there, but also lots of really cool guys, like those who sing rock & roll and help youngsters get out of drugs and gangs. Those guys live in the real world (and sometimes have their own history as a gang member or something) and I really respect them.

To me priests are just like everyone else... some are good, some bad. It's down to the individual not the movement or order.

But that whole "convert or die" bullshit that has been so popular for thousands of years... I don't get it. Doesn't every major religion state you should love and forgive, not hate and kill. It's funny how contradictory these religious psychopaths can be...

It's no coincidence that the stronger a person's religious beliefs are the more intolerant of others they become (and in extreme cases dangerous).

As usual for Japanese people, my girlfriend is buddhist/shintoist. That's no problem for me. If she ever wanted to become Christian I'd do my best to help her, but that's her choise. I just keep the door open. Her spending a minute or two saying her prayers in the morning, or refusing to go to the beach during Obon*, and me spending 15 seconds to say my silent prayers in the night before falling asleep... that can all easily fit under one roof.

Religion usually only becomes a problem when one tries to impose their beliefs or rules onto another.

Out of interest... how would you deal with the issue of children and religion?

I on the other hand hate religion, especially the monotheistic ones that preach poisonous dogma that does far more harm than good. Even if someone may get comfort and structure from these religions it doesn't change the fact that they are unture. Most religious people aren't strong enough to debate me or anybody else on the topic because they've never even thought about the possibility that they might be wrong. Most of they answers are “god is real to me and that's enough” which doesn't validate any of the things the religions teach.

That's pretty much where I come from...

[HungFist]

Most religious people aren't strong enough to debate me or anybody else on the topic because they've never even thought about the possibility that they might be wrong. Most of they answers are “god is real to me and that's enough” which doesn't validate any of the things the religions teach.

I find it quite funny that you also use the same "cause I'm right and I don't need to explain myself" logic in your post

Unless you're just trolling

But yes, there are certainly some Christians who are very aggressive about their religious stands. You can go find some of them on the streets and pick fights with them

Out of interest... how would you deal with the issue of children and religion?

That's a good question - something that I will probably have to think about in some 5-7 years from now. Basically the God is the only issue here - I don't see any contradiction between my modern Christian values* and the buddhist/shintoish of her.

* yes, I do believe the fucking bible is a book written 2000 years ago by men who lived back then. There are only two types of people who insist on it being considered the divine truth of Christianity:
1) Religious nutheads who use is as their weapon, and by doing so clearly go against 90% of the teachings of the religion.
2) Passionate religion haters (or comedians), who desperately look for something concrete to aim at, so that they can continue picking fights (or amusing comedy show).

Of course it's sad that we have these psychos who lead religious wars etc. But is it the religion that is really the problem? We don't support banning action movies either, even though no doubt many psychos draw inspiration from certain parts of them. Ban the movies, and they get their inspiration from the sunset. I think it's the same with religions. What do you gain if you manage prove god doesn't exists? An atheist world where the nutheads will just find another excuse to keep killing each other the same way they used to. Wouldn't we rather try to raise better citizens, and just forget about these silly fights about religions?

And yes, I'm speaking for myself. I find it extremely silly that anti-Christian people always try to group 2.2 billion into the same slot ("You're a Christian, prove me every word of the Bible motherfucker!"). If that's your definition for Christianity, then that's your problem. Why don't you just go fishing or something? Surely you have better things to do than to prove me that I believe in something that I wasn't aware of and that I'm wrong

...unless of course, if you're just trying to make trouble. Like those extreme religious folks.

[Heka]

This is a debate I’d really want to have with you if you’re willing to have it. Preferable not on a message board since emotions tend to run too hot when there’s no face to face contact.

Keep in mind I and Mark are not anti-Christian (I’m guessing Mark, tell me if I’m wrong ). We are anti-believing in something without evidence. Atheism isn’t a belief system it’s only a rejection of the notion that there is any evidence for a “higher power.” The burden of proof is on the religious person. Talking about religion is very hard because religious people almost always take it as an attack against their person rather than the religion itself.

[Yi-Long]

About the children: I feel parents shouldn't make that decision for them. I feel someone should only be allowed to 'register' for a certain religion when they're 16-18, which also means the rites will also have to be carried out AFTER that age. That way, those indivicuals will have their own say in the matter.

So no circumcisions before 16-18, no baptisms of young babies, etc etc.

Once they are 16-18, they can choose and do whatever they want.

Also, this doesn't mean a household can't raise their kids by their religious morals and values, or read their kids the bible or whatever. That's parenting and that's something parents are free to do however they want (obviously without breaking any moral codes or laws or whatever).

But all the stuff that has a lasting impact, like registering someone as a catholic or muslim or jew or whatever, or chopping off bodyparts or other rites... that will have to wait until a person is old enough to make that decision on his/her own. And we're going to pretend there's an arbitrary age for that, like we do with everything else.


About religion and the bad stuff that comes from it. I think it's very simple.

People look at the Taliban and say: Oh, they're muslim-extremists and they're raging a holy war.
Personally, I think that's the wrong conclussion. The Taliban is all about POWER, gaining POWER, and they abuse 'religion' to justify their deeds, and to gain loyalty. If you say you're doing God's work, there will be (ignorant) people who will believe you, and who want to follow you. Throughout history, 'religion' has always been a method to form groups loyal to eachother. And having formed a group, it's then very easy to say about others "They're the BAD people", and thus you can set people up against eachother and someohow everytone forgets those messages about peace and love and respect, cause they're too busy hating and fearing those who aren't part of their own group.

[Yi-Long]

This is a debate I’d really want to have with you if you’re willing to have it. Preferable not on a message board since emotions tend to run too hot when there’s no face to face contact.

This isn't the kungfucinema forum. No-one will get banned for voicing their opinion, even if you do so strongly.

Keep in mind I and Mark are not anti-Christian (I’m guessing Mark, tell me if I’m wrong ). We are anti-believing in something without evidence. Atheism isn’t a belief system it’s only a rejection of the notion that there is any evidence for a “higher power.” The burden of proof is on the religious person. Talking about religion is very hard because religious people almost always take it as an attack against their person rather than the religion itself.

I'm guessing it upsets people when you try to explain to them that, in your mind, they believe in a fairytail figure, which was made up to control the masses.

Even if I did believe in a higher being, I'm not sure if I would believe it was the same guy that's described as 'God' in the holy books. And even if it was, he seems like a pretty mean-spirited guy, when you take the stories from the Bible where he often killed huge amounts of people for petty reasons. So even if I were to take the Bible as 'truth', I'm not sure I would call 'God' the good guy.

[Markgway]

I'm an Agnostic-Atheist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism

[grim_tales]

I think I'm probably that too TBH

[Heka]

This isn't the kungfucinema forum. No-one will get banned for voicing their opinion, even if you do so strongly.

To me it’s not that important that we agree and I ain’t on a crusade (pun intended) to prove people wrong. I’m just interested in the debate itself and want to find out how other people think. Too me it’s far more important that the person is a good guy/girl regardless of his/her religion. I have no problems being friends with religious people, what I do have a problem with is people telling me what I can or can’t say.

I’m a lucky dude from a nice country who can do almost anything. I can have my intellectual discussion about metaphysical shit. However, most people who share my view can’t voice it because of the fear of physical and mental harm. I just want to live in a world where it’s OK to discuss these things.

Hung is a very dear friend of mine and it’s unimportant to me what kind of world view he has. What is important is that we both like spending time with each other and that he’s a good guy.

[HungFist]

Atheism isn’t a belief system it’s only a rejection of the notion that there is any evidence for a “higher power.” The burden of proof is on the religious person.

But why should a religious person have the burden of proof to you, when the topic doesn't concern you in any way? We're talking about personal values and morals. Doesn't everyone have the right to believe, or not to believe, whatever they want?

That's the point I was trying to make: while there are religious folks that are agressive, it seems many atheists are equally agressive, with a similar level of passion to prove other people wrong (even though they also lack any proof). That's what makes it so ironic.

With your post in this thread it seemed your main intention was either to pick a fight, or preach your non-belief in the same manner as the religious geeks preach their belief, which I found very amusing.

Myself I don't have any intention of discussing "God" with you because a) it's not a topic that concerns you, and b) I don't know what we would discuss on as I have never claimed God exists. We're talking about beliefs, a topic similar to believing opening a door to a lady is good manners.

As for what Yi-Long said, I agree 100%. I could have written every single word in his last few posts.

[gasteropod]

In comparison, I've always had difficulties with Japanese ghost movies partly because I just can't relate to that stuff.

Perhaps I was meant to be Japanese then I find Western exorcism horror silly.

[Heka]

Doesn't everyone have the right to believe, or not to believe, whatever they want?

This is a slippery intellectual slope. I’m sure the guys who flew the 9/11 planes believed that they were doing the right thing. There is a very small cognitive step from believing that there is a magical man in the sky to strapping a bomb to oneself in the belief that it’s for some ultimate good. These are of course very extreme examples but people do all kind of silly stuff in the name of religion. I’m not saying secular people are any better. Everyone is fallible. It’s still undeniable that religion makes good people do wicked things like saying condoms are bad in Africa or that women are lesser creatures than men.

The religious person doesn’t need to prove me anything if he keeps his/her religion out of my life. This sadly isn’t the case. I think you know that in Finland if I found a company I have to pay a church tax under threat of imprisonment or termination of my business. When I was in school I had to attend all the religious services even though I believed in none of them and I wasn’t a member of the church. When I would ask the question “why?” I would get the same answer as you now are giving me. ---->

Myself I don't have any intention of discussing "God" with you because a) it's not a topic that concerns you, and b) I don't know what we would discuss on as I have never claimed God exists. We're talking about beliefs, a topic similar to believing opening a door to a lady is good manners.

I’ve read the bible and I got straight A’s (10) in religion in school just because the topic interests me. I don’t want to cause any “trouble” but I find it baffling that there are still, even at this age topic that are off limits.

I’ve discussed religion and beliefs with Christians and Muslims. I’ve never managed to convert even one of them because this has never been my goal. Even if it was I think it would be impossible. I just want know more about the world and people. Both of my parents are scientists and I’ve been brought up to embrace the scientific method of looking at the world. I can still remember the shock and disgust on the face of my deeply religious aunt when I answered “The big BANG!” after she had asked the 10 year old me “How was the world created”. To me discovering about the world and not knowing is much more exciting than any mystic answer.

Because English isn’t my native language I can’t express myself as clearly as I want. Richard Feynman said it best. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRmbwczTC6E

It’s OK for me to not to discuss this topic. I’m just voicing my opinion on the matter.

[Markgway]

Because English isn’t my native language I can’t express myself as clearly as I want.

Are you kidding? Your English expression is better than most native English speakers on this board (myself included!)

[Heka]

Are you kidding? Your English expression is better than most native English speakers on this board (myself included!)

Thank you very much. That’s very kind of you to say that. I've been doing most of my reading and writing in English during my adult life. Nowadays, since I study in an English speaking polytechnic I also speak much more English than my native tongue. I still have a long way to go to convert my writing skills to speaking skills. I sometimes catch myself using stupid filler words like “like” which make me sound like a 13 year old girl. I’ll have a new challenge in learning Japanese during my study time there.

[HungFist]

Only managed to watch 5 movies last month. Must be a new record low

And today was the first for this month

[Markgway]

Only managed to watch 5 movies last month.

People have been banned for less.

[saltysam]

Arrived back from our trip to Bali on Saturday...had an enjoyable time but the travelling is exhausting. Set out on the Tuesday and 2 flights,a dubai stop-over & 18 hours later we arrived in Jakarta, capital of Indonesia where we were staying the night before moving on to Bali. $25 pay on entry visa to enter the country. after clearing customs we were met by friend and his fiance, first thing that hit was the humid heat,nearly overwhelming.

Cannot say i was impressed by the little we saw of Jakarta,seemed to be a chaotic 100mph city absolutely gridlocked by traffic...A Drive that should've took 30 minutes took 3 hours due to the constant never ending traffic jams and multiple motor bikes driving round the place.Sidewalks were in an appallng stte with potholes everywhere.Eventually we arrived at our hotel where we showered,washed and changed,arrangng to meet our friends later that night. on stepping out of the hotel i was met by a guy with a boombox accompanied by a dancing girl looking for money went on from there to an irish bar for a couple then retired for the night.

Next morning we headed back to the airport for the flight to Bali which only takes a little over an hour. We were met by a driver who took us to our hotel in Seminyak where we checked in then headed back out to see some of the island with the driver who'd been hired for us for the day.One of the places we went to was Bali Bird & Reptile park which was enjoyable until the end when we visited the Reptile part, in the tank with the Sleeping Python snke was a quivering LIVE chicken awaiting it's fate this was repeated with a couple of other tanks,a live duck in one and another chicken in another.very distressing and ruined the day for us really.

Friday was spent on another tour of the Island where we saw some amazing sights,the various temples, Tanah Lot at Sunset, The monkey forest, the huge rice terraces..awesome. Saturday i performed best mn duties at my mates wedding,a fntastic day that was and then Sunday was spent sunbathing on double six beach which was great except for the never ending stream of sellers badgering you for massages,pedicures,sellin trinkets,ice creams,sunglasses etc..it was incessant.

Monday we moved to Kuta which was very busy and very touristy,llods of various little markets etc but it's impossible to look without being relentlessly badgered. Thursday we flew back to Jakarta for one night then headed back to the Uk Friday..arriving back Saturday. Enjoyable but i doubt if i'd go again.

Observations...the Balinese people are lovely and very patient,the hotel staff and resturant/bar workers are so polite and can't do enough for you.i was shocked how much they earn..one guy had worked in the same bar for 20 years and earned 50000 rupiah a day (about £3.30) another guy worked 8 hours every day in a Warung (restaurant) and erned 700000 rupiah a month ( about £45) to hire a driver for the day was outrageously cheap...the services of our driver cost $50 for 10 hours!! Eating out is cheap and drinks are similar priced to uk ..couldn't take to their food though. The dvd/blu-ray industry there is totally counterfeit...there were shops everywhere in both Bali & Jakarta selling counterfiets for about 71p each..i never saw any legit releases anywhere!!