French Blog in memorial to the two youngsters...

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 07 Nov 2005, 09:55

I'm sure by now everybody will have heard about the happenings in the suburbs of Paris and now also other cities in France.

I just found this blog.

http://bouna93.skyblog.com

There was also another blog from one of the hundreds of youngsters fighting cops etc, which was closed down by the provider Skyblog, because supposedly, he didn't respect the guidelines.

http://bouns93.skyblog.com

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 07 Nov 2005, 15:57

Those links are useless unless you speak French.

Can you tell us what it's all about?

I heard that there are riots in France but I've no idea why?

Always some group or other causing trouble for decent people.

The police should just shoot them.

I'm feeling kinda facist today. 8)

tom2681 · Post by **tom2681** » 07 Nov 2005, 16:31

To make it short, those riots happen because Minister Nicolas Sarkozy (the minister of security in France) has decided to "clean" the suburbs of all major cities.

Most of the young "delinquents" have decided to fight back and destroy the country.

Here's a list of cities touched by the riots:

-So far, France has been burning for 10 days.
-More than 4000 cars have been destroyed.
-1200 people have been arrested.
-6 gunfights have taken place.
-77 cops and 31 firemen have been seriously injured.

This is getting close to a "Gangs of New-York"-size riot.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 07 Nov 2005, 18:19

Tom2681 wrote:To make it short, those riots happen because Minister Nicolas Sarkozy (the minister of security in France) has decided to "clean" the suburbs of all major cities.

Most of the young "delinquents" have decided to fight back and destroy the country.

I'm guessing by your use of quotes that you disagree with the status quo and/or there's more to it that the official line. On the news it's said that a 61 yr old man died and a disabled person was burnt when a bus was set alight. Disgusting. Sounds like delinquents is a gross understatment. It's also said that most of the rioters are immigrants which of course means we can't say anything bad about them. If conditions suck so bad then go home. Imagine me going to live in another country and bleating on about how shite it is. I'd get my ass kicked. The maine reason these suburbs are so bad is because of the people in them. Same with any country.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 07 Nov 2005, 18:53

Any end in site?

It amazes me that governments never seem to see the obvious which is to sit down with the leaders of these "so called" trouble makers and listen to why they're angry.

Markgway wrote:If conditions suck so bad then go home.

Of course because that's the answer.

The minister Tom speaks of did call the people in question SCUM. I guess you wouldn't be angry if someone called you and your friends SCUM?

I suppose all British Muslims should go back to the middle east then? That would fix the terrorism crisis.

tom2681 · Post by **tom2681** » 07 Nov 2005, 20:02

@Mark:

There are bad guys on both sides of the law.
I can't agree with the politicians about "cleaning" the ghetto (which sounds racist and immoral).
I can't agree with the people who destroy buses, cars, and who kill people for the fun of it.

If you want to break something, go kill cops, ministers and presidents.
Don't attack your neighbour.

Any end in site?

Sarkozy would have to make a public apology and/or resign. I don't see him doing that just yet.
BTW: why don't you like the spelling "Nite" instead of "Night", and yet you use "site" instead of "Sight" ?!

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 07 Nov 2005, 20:28

bradavon wrote:It amazes me that governments never seem to see the obvious which is to sit down with the leaders of these "so called" trouble makers and listen to why they're angry.

...and they should also negotiate with terrorists? I've heard it all before, Brad. It's always somebody else's fault. The one common denomenator with anarchists is that they're not to blame. It's the government. Always the government. But instead of using democracy and (GOD FORBID) political means of being heard they make innocent people suffer with violence and destruction. And its the liberal excuse makers who let them get away with it. Hell, next time someone tries to burgle my house I'll offer them tea and sympathy and maybe they can explain to me why it's MY fault. As for "so-called" trouble-makers I guess you've missed the news then? There's nothing "so-called" about them. These people want nothing more than to cause trouble. From what I've gathered France has one of the most generous welfare systems in the world. You wanna talk poverty? These assholes were organising riots on their mobile phones for christsakes!!

Of course because that's the answer.

It's AN answer. Immigrants have far too much to say. I don't mean they shouldn't have freedom of speech, but when you consider the small percentage of the general population they make, it seems that every other week you have a minority of some kind complaining, demanding, threatening... take your pick. Apparently most of the immigrants in this case are Muslim, which is really not surprising at this point in time. Not a day goes by with the words violence and Islam in the same sentence. Sad for the decent majority. Another brick in the wall in the degeneration of race relations in Europe you might say? Tell me if I move to the Middle East and complain about the way the white minority is treated by the indiginous rule do you think I'll get stoned to death?

The minister Tom speaks of did call the people in question SCUM.

They obviously ARE scum.

I guess you wouldn't be angry if someone called you and your friends SCUM?

If my initial reaction was to start rioting then I would deserve it. But that would be me taking responsibility which is something these jerks never do. ALWAYS someone else to blame.

I suppose all British Muslims should go back to the middle east then?

If they're British then they didn't COME from the Middle East so I'm not sure what you mean? But if you're somehow meaning immigrants then only the ones who riot, cause violent troubles and vehemently (and vocally) hate the country which welcomed them to live. I think these people should be kicked out. And that's nothing to do with race or religion. I would say the same for any immigrant in any country. The trouble with Britain is that 'we' confuse tolerance with weakness. No one respects weakness least of all those you're trying to appease. See 30 years of the IRA.

That would fix the terrorism crisis.

Unfortunately it would... but at a terrible cost to freedom.

romerojpg · Post by **romerojpg** » 07 Nov 2005, 20:40

SCUM sums these fools up perfectly and has proved they are SCUM, I just hope inocent people dont die, just the SCUM.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 07 Nov 2005, 20:41

Tom2681 wrote:There are bad guys on both sides of the law.
I can't agree with the politicians about "cleaning" the ghetto (which sounds racist and immoral).
I can't agree with the people who destroy buses, cars, and who kill people for the fun of it.

Regardless of the problems of the politicians language, which is at best debatable, that you seemingly equate the two polarised sides - potentially racist language and murder - as pretty much the same, is something I find disturbing. I don't know what exactly was meant by "cleaning out"; perhaps you could explain further? But unless said politician said "we're going to annihilate the bastards with flame throwers on Wednesday" I don't see anything that remotely justifies an uprising (which is far too honourable a term to attach to this murderous scum).

If you want to break something, go kill cops, ministers and presidents.
Don't attack your neighbour.

The fact that I think you're serious greatly disturbs me. Are you honestly suggesting that it's acceptable to murder the police and politicians for doing their job? Is it OK for me to slaughter anyone I strongly disagree with...or who offends me in some way? The advocation of random violence (and to kill ANY "cops" would fall under that heading) is grossly offensive to every right-thinking and law-abiding person on this planet.

Sarkozy would have to make a public apology and/or resign. I don't see him doing that just yet.

Again I would need to know more about what this man said and meant to say. But hey if he doesn't resign you could always get your shotgun-wielding friends to blow him away...

tom2681 · Post by **tom2681** » 07 Nov 2005, 20:51

Are you honestly suggesting that it's acceptable to murder the police and politicians for doing their job ?

Hey, I hate cops as much as the next guy.
Cops have been raiding the suburbs for a while now, it's only right that they fight back IMO.

Is it OK for me to slaughter anyone I strongly disagree with...or who offends me in some way ?

I wanna say yes, but that would be too extreme.
Still, if you have a good reason to slaughter someone, I won't try to talk you out of it.

The advocation of random violence is grossly offensive to every right-thinking and law-abiding person on this planet.

I never said I was perfect.

About this particular conflict:
It's seems that the riots are getting closer to my house every night.
Last night they burned down a villa that is 500 meters away from my house.

Now I have a shotgun, a knife and a crowbar next to my bed.
If the riot gets here, I won't even try to tell the difference between cops and delinquents. Whoever gets into my yard will die a horrible death (and may God have no mercy on their souls).

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 07 Nov 2005, 20:57

Tom... can you please explain a bit more about the police in france, and why they have such a bad rap? Are they really as bad and racist against minorities/poor as we sometimes hear and see in the media?

Anyway, I can see why people would get angry over 2 kids dying cause they were fleeing from the cops, and the strong words from the politician, but it's been 8 days now, so it must be about something much much deeper ...

Anyway, as many have said here... you can protest against the police and politicians, but you shouldnt terrorize and harm innocent people. Today a guy (80 years old or something) died cause he had tried to put out a fire that was started in front of his house... that's just sickening and will take away any feeling of empathy the people might have had for these french youths...

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 07 Nov 2005, 21:00

Tom2681 wrote:BTW: why don't you like the spelling "Nite" instead of "Night", and yet you use "site" instead of "Sight" ?!

Check out an English dictionary

Site is a real word and has a different meaning to sight. Nite is not a real word and is people just being lazy (it's only ONE letter less for Christ sake).

I understand languages change, fine but lazy is lazy.

Site:

The place where a structure or group of structures was, is, or is to be located: a good site for the school.

Sight:

The ability to see.

8)

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 07 Nov 2005, 21:04

Markgway wrote:...and they should also negotiate with terrorists? I've heard it all before, Brad. It's always somebody else's fault.

Well yes.

You only said a few lines down the political democratic move is better so yes we should negotiate with terrorists. We may not agree with their motives but they do have motives. At least by talking there is a chance of fixing the problem without possibly any bloodshed.

To go in there guns blazing just causes another Iraq or Vietnam war.

I still to THIS day don't really know why Bin Laden has such a problem with the West and particularly Bush.

Markgway wrote:If they're British then they didn't COME from the Middle East so I'm not sure what you mean?

Sorry that's funny.

It doesn't take long relatively speaking to become a British citizen.

Tom2681 wrote:Hey, I hate cops as much as the next guy.
Cops have been raiding the suburbs for a while now, it's only right that they fight back IMO.

I see your point but without cops we'd have REAL anarchy. Surely you don't want the police force to be disbanded?

Tom2681 wrote:If the riot gets here, I won't even try to tell the difference between cops and delinquents. Whoever gets into my yard will die a horrible death (and may God have no mercy on their souls).

Is that a good idea? You'd go to prison.

Yi-Long wrote:Anyway, I can see why people would get angry over 2 kids dying cause they were fleeing from the cops, and the strong words from the politician, but it's been 8 days now, so it must be about something much much deeper ...

Exactly.

Banning ethnic clothing really didn't help (for one). If the British government ever tried that there would be outcry.

tom2681 · Post by **tom2681** » 07 Nov 2005, 21:21

can you please explain a bit more about the police in france, and why they have such a bad rap ?

There's a lot of manipulation happening in the medias so it's hard to paint an honest picture of French Police.

Let's just say that when something bad happens, they're quick to suspect the racial minorities (mostly arabs). They are known to be racists and that's why they are hated in the suburbs (where the majority of people are from racial minorities).

At the same time, justice is biased towards those racial minorities. If you are an honest citizen and you punch some arab kid trying to steal your car, he'll get away with it by saying that you punched him because he was an arab.

And on the top of the world, you have the policticians like Sarkozy who are putting pressure on the suburbs.

I would need to know more about what this man said and meant to say.

He started all this a few years ago.
He's responsible for a law that forbids "gatherings of 3 people or more in suburbs". It sounds nuts, but he did it.
"For urban violence and deliquents, there's zero tolerance".

About cops:
2005: They beat the crap out of the students who were quietly demonstrating.
They sent a SWAT team to neutralize the sailors who were demonstrating on their boats in Marseille.
2003: They attacked and arrested teachers during a quiet demonstration.

We've got the worst cops in all the world.
When I see a bunch of skinheads with baseball bats, I'm not scared.
When I see a cop I start running in the opposite direction.

Where's the logic in that ?

Sorry, gotta go. The riot's coming to my street.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 07 Nov 2005, 22:04

As some of you know I work for the police and am very thankful to say I can honestly say the police in Wiltshire, South West are NOT racist.

Sure some maybe but I've never, ever even remotely seen the slightest thing racist or in the media (for the past 5+ years). In fact quite the opposite.

The IT Head is from Asian decent as are many of my colleagues. Great stuff.

We've got the worst cops in all the world.

I suspect the Brazilian police are more corrupt. They're not even cops in the sense you and I think of cops.

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 07 Nov 2005, 22:35

Markgway wrote:If they're British then they didn't COME from the Middle East so I'm not sure what you mean?

Brad was clearly talking about British MUSLIMS and not Middle Eastern people living in Britain. You see, there ARE British Muslims, even if they didn't come from the Middle East.

Anyway...

I wrote a long comment today in the office at the news station I work at now. Let me try to gather a bit of it in English.

From the almost 60 million people, who live in France, 4 millions of them are Muslims from North-Africa and Black Africa and 1 million are Muslims from elsewhere. They were brought into the colonial power as guest-workers. They did the hard work, nobody else would do and after they finished, they were simply forgotten about by the nation. That's how youngsters from the suburbs think about their parents' experience with France. The neglecting of their integration into society has apparently been that strong, that once you are in such a suburb, you won't get far with the national language. The spoken language there is a mixture of Arabic and strong French language. When youngsters leave their suburbs to the actual cities like Paris, they feel as if they went abroad. They don't understand other people and other people don't understand them.

If the French government has difficulties to transform groups of outsider in the own country to active links of the community, don't one have to wonder whether it was too early for them to enter a European Union? After all, the European Union, shouldn't be called a union only due to the countries' common currency.

In France, you can seriously speak of an existing parallel community which could form its own nation. In Clichy-sous-Bois, different laws apply for example. Here it doesn't matter if you are French, black or Muslim, because when a local tragedy occurs the youngsters stick together. Just like during the current riots.

On October 27th, two youngsters were killed when they escaped from a police stop-and-search operation. The cops followed them and they hunted them in the direction of a dead-end street where the two boys hid in a small house with transformer of high voltage. Due to their panic, they didn't take note of the sign that said, "Stop! Danger of Death!" The 15-years old Banou and his 17-years old Tunisian friend Ziad burnt to death. In the meantime, it is officially denied that the two guys were escaping from cops.

They were hunted to death. That's what their relatives, friends, fellow countrymen and fellow sufferers are saying. Enough is enough. It was the last straw that broke the camel's back. Since then there are fierce street battles are occuring every night which have put the French government into a crisis.

Maybe the wo boys shouldn't have try to escape in the first place. They could have surrendered. But Africans and Arabs from Clichy-sous-Bois don't feel safe at a police department. Police have always been dealing more aggressivley than is allowed with youngsters from the suburbs. In suburbian police departments, youngsters have been abused physically and psychologically. If one believes the statements of the youngsters, this must have been the order of the days.

Knowing this, having the instinct to avoid cops at all stakes, the two boys escaped into the high voltage house, not knowing that it would harm them more than the cops would have.

The French media speaks of the 'Failure of the Government' and that 'it is now paying for the arrogance it has always shown in the past'. This was seeded over the years. The youngsters from the suburbs have always been considered as scum. The last time they were verbally debased was when Sarkozy, who wants to become French president, called them 'riffraff'. They aren't accepted anywhere apart from the ghettos.

Due to the lack of state-aided integration, districts and communities have formed, which live totally seperated and with own law. The government's power has no access to them without being considered as an enemy intruder.

To get out of the ghetto is a dream which will stay unrealised for most of the young people who live there. They wonder what they need education for if they can't find a job. Even applications for part-time jobs are rejected due to the senders' addresses which are located in the ghetto areas.

Germany is also affected by unintegrated groups, but not to the same level as they are present in France. In order to prevent Germany from suffering the same crisis as France currently does, they should work on that problem from its root, instead of just repressing it.

romerojpg · Post by **romerojpg** » 07 Nov 2005, 22:53

Crikey! its getting heavy man.

tom2681 · Post by **tom2681** » 07 Nov 2005, 22:58

How come LD knows as much as I do on this issue ?

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 07 Nov 2005, 23:01

Hmmm... maybe because he follows the news and the on-goings in the world apart from global DVD news?

8)

tom2681 · Post by **tom2681** » 07 Nov 2005, 23:04

I didn't know that the conflict had become so "popular".

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 07 Nov 2005, 23:07

Well, it was the number one topic in the editorial office I work at now. I'm in the Arabic section of Deutsche Welle.
http://www.dw-world.de

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 08 Nov 2005, 09:00

What does that mean LD, German World

I've been following whats happening as well and its pretty damn scary.

I really can't agree with the killing of anyone (least of all innocent people), be they cops, ministers or anyone else innocent if you are angry. Killing innocents is exactly what those extremist bastards are doing in Iraq (and by that I mean the insurgents).
I don't *really* understand what the riots are about, if its "delinquents" thats going way too far, thats not delinquency, what they're doing is plain evil

The French minister Tom was referring to sounds like Romero

I'm glad you're OK Tom

What were the student riots in Paris in 1968 about?

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 08 Nov 2005, 10:24

grim_tales wrote:What does that mean LD, German World

It's not German World. Deutsche Welle is translated as German Wave. It is something like BBC or CNN only in German. Worldwide broadcasted news in many different languages and I am in the Arabic section.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 08 Nov 2005, 10:26

OK, I see

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 08 Nov 2005, 13:39

Tom2681 wrote:Hey, I hate cops as much as the next guy.
Cops have been raiding the suburbs for a while now, it's only right that they fight back IMO.

I don't hate cops so clearly I'm not the next guy. Rogue cops aside the majority protect us from crime. What do you do Tom that contributes to French safety - apart from keeping your friends occupied? And I'm sure the suburbs were raided for a reason. I don't buy this 'we're all innocent' nonsense.

I wanna say yes, but that would be too extreme.
Still, if you have a good reason to slaughter someone, I won't try to talk you out of it.

This is childish. I'm trying to make a serious point.

About this particular conflict:
It's seems that the riots are getting closer to my house every night.
Last night they burned down a villa that is 500 meters away from my house. Now I have a shotgun, a knife and a crowbar next to my bed.
If the riot gets here, I won't even try to tell the difference between cops and delinquents. Whoever gets into my yard will die a horrible death (and may God have no mercy on their souls).

Seek help. It's not funny anymore.