What general film/series have you just seen.. marks out of 5

[Markgway]

I do think HULK was overrated because it was an Ang Lee film though

Really? I thought the critics were tough on it.

a perception within mainstream film criticism that because he broke through the "genre restrictions" of Martial Arts film with CTHD (hence the reason so many clueless critics dubbed it "martial arthouse" like there hadn't been over a hundred martial arts films like that produced decades before)

The Wuxia genre was hardly new, as you say, but I think Lee did bring an arthouse sensibility to the project. With the exception of King Hu I can't really think of another director who approached the genre in the same way. If it hadn't been for Lee's work then I doubt we would've seen Zhang Yimou's subsequent 'martial arthouse' films.

[grim_tales]

Surely OUATIC has a very strong story that could work as a drama with martial arts, if that makes sense? That doesnt mean Iron Monkey isnt a GREAT film though

[Shingster]

...with CTHD (hence the reason so many clueless critics dubbed it "martial arthouse" like there hadn't been over a hundred martial arts films like that produced decades before)

Could you name one? Don't get me wrong, but production value on CTHD was very high. There might be lots of wuxia films that were made before CTHD, which I also really enjoy watching, but CTHD set the bar higher. Films like OUATIC, 'Iron Monkey', 'Green Snake', 'Swordsman' etc. are similar to CTHD. And even though I love these films and they hold a special place in my heart and I watch them more often than CTHD, I have to admit that production value on CTHD was really high which made it unique at its time.

Come Drink With Me, A Touch of Zen to name two right away (we all know that CTHD is basically one big love letter to King Hu surely?). Many of the old Shaws kung fu/wu xia flicks aspired to deliver more than just action thrills, CTHD just happened to be the first truly classical martial arts film to be made on a hollywood budget, and I don't see how anyone can use "production values" as a basis for gauging the thematic content of a film. If high production values = arthouse then James Cameron's films are probably the greatest works of art ever.

Really? I thought the critics were tough on it.

I seem to recall it got a reasonably even split between between those who thought it was ambitious but flawed, ambitious and successful, and pretentious with not enough action. It's a fairly routine comic book film imo with a muddled script. The British press seemed to want to intellectualise the film in a way the American press didn't (again from my memory).

The Wuxia genre was hardly new, as you say, but I think Lee did bring an arthouse sensibility to the project. With the exception of King Hu I can't really think of another director who approached the genre in the same way.

Depends on what your definition of Arthouse is I suppose, but if you think arthouse = art as in something abstract and intellectually introspective or dense, then yes King Hu is one of the very few who made those kind of films, but filmmakers like Chang Cheh, Tsui Hark and Lau Kar Leung also strove to incorporate martial themes that were beyond the straightforward tropes of the genre. (and let's not forget the Jidaigeki from Japan as well, even though it was a different type of martial art).

If it hadn't been for Lee's work then I doubt we would've seen Zhang Yimou's subsequent 'martial arthouse' films.

That's a whole other argument though, CTHD had a massive impact and subsequent influence (not sure where I said it didn't??) but there was nothing "new" about it, just fresh at a time when the old concept of the martial art film that strove to appeal to both the mainstream action fan and the cinemagoer looking for more developed characters and themes.

[Markgway]

Depends on what your definition of Arthouse is I suppose, but if you think arthouse = art as in something abstract and intellectually introspective or dense, then yes King Hu is one of the very few who made those kind of films, but filmmakers like Chang Cheh, Tsui Hark and Lau Kar Leung also strove to incorporate martial themes that were beyond the straightforward tropes of the genre. (and let's not forget the Jidaigeki from Japan as well, even though it was a different type of martial art).

I'm not a fan of 'art' movies per say so my definition may be off, but your summation "something abstract and intellectually introspective or dense" was what I was thinking of when I stressed arthouse over martial art. Before Ang Lee, I'd say King Hu was the only filmmaker to really approach wuxia from that angle. Chang Cheh, Tsui Hark, and Lau Kar-Leung have all made terrific martial art movies, but I wouldn't describe any of them as arthouse. There's artistry at work, but these are more straightforward, pulpy adaptaions for my money. I'm not familiar with that Japanese director or Japanese martial arts film in the main.

[bradavon]

If it hadn't been for Lee's work then I doubt we would've seen Zhang Yimou's subsequent 'martial arthouse' films.

And that would be a crying shame. I even like Curse of the Golden Flower, not that it's a martial arts movie.

CTHD just happened to be the first truly classical martial arts film to be made on a hollywood budget

Personally I'd take just out of that sentence. That means something.

CTHD = Art house first, Martial arts second.
OUATIC = Martial arts first, Art house second.

p.s - For someone who found Drunken Master and Prodigal Son slow, laborious and boring (especially Drunken Master), would I like Come Drink with Me? I take it the Dragon Dynasty is the best version with English subs? It's less than £7 from Amazon Market.

[Markgway]

p.s - For someone who found Drunken Master and Prodigal Son slow, laborious and boring (especially Drunken Master), would I like Come Drink with Me? I take it the Dragon Dynasty is the best version with English subs? It's less than £7 from Amazon Market.

Have you seen any early Shaw Bros to compare? Any King Hu?

Come Drink With Me is obviously a better movie than Drunken Master and has more in the way of story and character than hardcore fighting - but those two movies aren't anything alike and don't make for a suitable comparison. As different as they are you may wind up disliking both. At worst CDWM is a classic (IMO) that you should see at least once - but maybe you should check out this trailer before you buy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzeCrVleGfY

The DD DVD looks and sounds excellent, the subs are terrible. The IVL (HK) disc has better subs, but inferior A/V.

[grim_tales]

To add to what Shing said, in some ways Rape of the Sword (1967) is similar to CTHD too.

[Shingster]

I'm not a fan of 'art' movies per say so my definition may be off, but your summation "something abstract and intellectually introspective or dense" was what I was thinking of when I stressed arthouse over martial art. Before Ang Lee, I'd say King Hu was the only filmmaker to really approach wuxia from that angle. Chang Cheh, Tsui Hark, and Lau Kar-Leung have all made terrific martial art movies, but I wouldn't describe any of them as arthouse. There's artistry at work, but these are more straightforward, pulpy adaptaions for my money. I'm not familiar with that Japanese director or Japanese martial arts film in the main.

Arthouse is generally defined as anything that is aimed or made to appeal to a niche audience rather than a mass one, which strictly speaking probably no Kung Fu film from the 70s/80s probably fit into barring maybe a Touch of Zen. The term "martial arthouse" was I believe originally coined to describe a martial arts films with (some) arthouse leanings and AFAIA was applied to titles by the likes of Tsui Hark and King Hu by independant cinema chains back in the day.

I personally believe that CTHD doesn't really fit into either this definition or your own because obviously it was aimed at a mass audience and it is ultimately a fairly mainstream romantic drama with an unconventional narrative structure and some kick-ass martial arts.

[thelostdragon]

CTHD is by no means an arthouse film. Why is it that these days any film that doesn't feature your typical Hollywood actors is being called an arthouse film? To me CTHD is a solid wuxia film with a solid storyline, solid fight choreography, solid cast, solid art department and solid music. The cinematography was also quite unusual, but in a good way. Personally, I never saw such cinematography in a wuxia film before.

Shing, you mention 'Come Drink With Me' and 'Touch of Zen', which I really appreciate. What I was getting at was that none of these films touched me emotionally from a human perspective. As a filmmaker myself, I adore the two films for what they were at their time. To me they are examples of outstanding filmmaking. With CTHD I'm only being honest when I say that it made me jerk a tear or two. I can't say that for any wuxia film I have seen before that. Maybe OUATIC, but can we really classify it as a traditional wuxia film?

[grim_tales]

OUATIC had some pretty emotional scenes, IMO. A classic film.
I love Come Drink With Me - Cheng Pei Pei is superb

[Markgway]

Like I said, I'm not an arthouse kinda guy, so I'm not gonna quibble over definitions, but I do think CTHD is different in tone, style and approach to most that came before it. Some may call that arthouse, some not. I'm easy.

Once Upon a Time in China isn't even Wuxia...

[grim_tales]

No, but it's still period/historical martial arts.

[bradavon]

CTHD has arthouse sensibilities but that's more to do with Ang Lee in general than the other, which agreed I wouldn't call an arthouse film. It's a shame Zhang Yimou aside, they didn't capitalise on this more.

Have you seen any early Shaw Bros to compare? Any King Hu?

No. I thought I'd seen Dragon Inn but it turns out I've seen New Gate Dragon Inn, which I guess is a remake.

but those two movies aren't anything alike and don't make for a suitable comparison. As different as they are you may wind up disliking both. At worst CDWM is a classic (IMO) that you should see at least once

That's good then. I suspected they'd be very different but wasn't sure if the tone was similar.

but maybe you should check out this trailer before you buy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzeCrVleGfY

I checked out a few but the quality is so poor it was hard to tell if I'd like it. The one on the Dragon Dynasty website is much better.

The DD DVD looks and sounds excellent, the subs are terrible. The IVL (HK) disc has better subs, but inferior A/V.

How terrible? Enough to put up with inferior AV?

How much did Ang Lee borrow in CTHD? Thanks btw.

[Shingster]

CTHD is by no means an arthouse film. Why is it that these days any film that doesn't feature your typical Hollywood actors is being called an arthouse film? To me CTHD is a solid wuxia film with a solid storyline, solid fight choreography, solid cast, solid art department and solid music. The cinematography was also quite unusual, but in a good way. Personally, I never saw such cinematography in a wuxia film before.

I may have made this unclear, but I'm in complete agreement with what LD states here, the term martial arthouse when applied to a film like CTHD (which I think is a great film) kind of condescends the definition of mainstream martial arts in a way because filmmakers like King Hu, Chang Cheh, Lau Kar Leung, John Woo, Tsui Hark, and other Wu Xia directors like Chor Yuen (obviously the Wu Xia genre has that strong lliterary basis) already established a depth of characterisation and themes within the mainstream that went beyond the crude pratfalls of the later Seasonal titles like Drunken Master (many of them also made pulpy films, there was frequently that dichotomy in the early kung fu/Wu Xia films). To me CTHD operates very much within that old tradition of "serious" martial arts, just more elegantly (there is still some pulp, but it's very restrained).

If I was to label any martials film as arthouse then it would probably be a title that can be frustrating and maybe even incoherent if you approached it with mainstream sensibilities; ie: something like Ashes of Time. Hero is almost more like art porn; visually evocative but not exactly deep.

[Keung]

White Chicks 2/5

If Terry Crews wasn't in this, I would've turned it off in the first hour.

[Markgway]

No, but it's still period/historical martial arts.

Yes, but we were talking about Wuxia (at least I was... lol)

No. I thought I'd seen Dragon Inn but it turns out I've seen New Gate Dragon Inn, which I guess is a remake.

There's no harm in giving CDWM a go. But if you don't like it steer clear of other Shaw Bros films (of the era).

How terrible? Enough to put up with inferior AV?

I'd say no. The IVL is letterboxed and 5.1 remixed. I'd have to rate DD's improved A/V over the subs (just don't blame the film for bad writing).

[Markgway]

The Adjustment Bureau ***

True Grit (1969) **½

True Grit (2010) ***

[grim_tales]

IIRC DD used very old theatrical subtitles (almost Ingrish at times) for their DVD of Come Drink With Me. Shame, as you say the PQ is very good.

[Markgway]

Red Road **½

[Keung]

Doghouse 3/5

Rush Hour 3 3/5

Hiroyuki Sanada was awesome. That's about it.

[gasteropod]

Cowboys & Aliens - 2/5

Too many screenwriters spoil the broth, and it didn't help that my cinema showed it in stereo and with the contrast ratio of an LCD screen.

[HungFist]

They Live (USA, 1988) – 3.5/5
Carpenter goes anti-Regan with satirical action-fantasy-thriller. Despite some horror movie themes it’s essentially a social commentary with plenty of humor and action. The BBFC ‘18’ rating is seriously outdated, though. While the film might have worked better were it a bit darker, it’s nevertheless a fun and original movie with an instantly recognizable L.A. setting.

Torrente (Spain, 1998) – 3/5
Jose Luis Torrente – sexist, racist, drug using asshole – the best cop Madrid’s got! Santiago Segura’s cult action-comedy overdoes it a bit, but certainly comes with a fair share of crude and often hilarious humor. The main character, also seen in three sequels, became an instant cult hero.

[Markgway]

Graves End **½

Black comedy chiller with Eric Roberts.

[Markgway]

Joshua **½

[luckystars]

Day of the Dead. 8.5/10
Just love this film. Packs a mighty punch, on a grand 80's level..but still having the edge of a B-movie..