John Woo's films are so hit and miss for me...

[monzo44]

None of you have mentioned Blackjack!

I think Holywood knows exactly what to do with Woo, you have to remember Woo is the one picking his films to do! so if anything it is his fault he is not making Hollywood masterpieces all the time, he has the power and producer status to ake anything he wants to and can get the cash, sadly he picks some odd films to make at times.

All I want is a classy old school action film, not a massive budget over the top CGI action film.

You see, that's not really true!

ABT almost didn't happen but for Tsui Hark going to bat for Woo with Cinema City and backing his casting of Chow Yun Fat when investors threatened to pull their money out.

Woo never wanted to make A Better Tomorrow 2 but felt honor bound to do it when Tsui Hark asked as he had rescued his career. He hated the script and was horrified with the final cut which was done in 3 seperate editing suites at the same time. Some by Woo, some by David Wu and some by Tsui Hark.

Just Heroes was a movie he sat in on as a favour to his mentor, it's all the better for his guiding hand and stands head and shoulders above many of the gun play movies coming out of HK at the time.

Hard Target was really the best of a bunch of formulaic scripts that he was sent and any magic that film has is down to John Woo despite the fact that Universal stuck 9 producers on him, had Sam Raimi on stand by to take the reins if Woo didn't work out, bogged him down in meeting after meeting after meeting particularly WRT the union laws in the US film business and had him submit his film 7 times to the MPAA for an R cert. Add to that a star who wanted to work with Woo but then wanted him to bow to his will and allow him to show his ass in as many scenes as he could!!

Broken Arrow fell into his lap after a 2 year development on a project called Tears of the Sun got pulled last minute, it was already green lit with cast in place so he just sat in and tried to make the most of it!! Did a damn fine job in my opinion.

M:I2 had the most meglamaniacal and controlling star/producer in the business telling Woo how to do his job.

Paychack was another film filled with studio interference.

Bullet in the Head almost didn't happen because nobody wanted to see such a down beat film, being his first self produced film left him at the mercy of investors and every shot on that film was a struggle.

In fact, most, if not all of his Golden Harvest films and Cinema City movies were studio dictated, so he has had carte blanche very few times in his career and still managed to make films that we all love and are all talking about many years later.

I still think he has had more impact on the world on HK movie fandom and more influence on how action films look than any other HK film personality ever and remains the most significant figure in it's history as a result. Even on an off day, I love John Woos films. there is something in their DNA that just clicks with me. ABT really changed how I look at HK films when it came out as it looked so different to everything else at the time.

I love many film makers that came before and since but it's hard for me to argue with the above.

I'd be interested to know what the rest of you think!!

[romerojpg]

Well I mainly mean once Woo had got Face Off made and the cash rolled in then Hollywood kind of took notice, after that he at least got to do what he wanted film wise, some may have been messed with a bit as he did take on some epic productions, but hey at least he rolled thru the films even if they got slowly a bit lesser in quality.

[monzo44]

Well I mainly mean once Woo had got Face Off made and the cash rolled in then Hollywood kind of took notice, after that he at least got to do what he wanted film wise, some may have been messed with a bit as he did take on some epic productions, but hey at least he rolled thru the films even if they got slowly a bit lesser in quality.

Agreed to a point! I know I'm inviting serious dog's abuse, but do you think Windtalkers is of lesser qulity than, say Broken Arrow or Hard Target? It has less fan favourite stuff for sure but it is a really well made film and the closest Hollywood has come to a Sam Fuller style War film in the years since The Big Red One IMO.

[romerojpg]

I adore Broken Arrow and Hard Target, so it is hard for me to say anything bad about them in my eyes

Windtalkers - while I like it thats for sure, it has problems. Good stuff at points, the lead cast members are to thank for that, the rest of the cast are a bit of a problem for me as too many of them just dont stand out at all as charecters. The film never fully works, but hey is has some good action scenes and the longer cut helps the film flow better thats for sure a good solid film, but I do wish it had been a bit better in some places. Still you can tell it is a Woo film thats for sure, his name is pretty much stamped on it from the word go

I am no fan of The Big Red One, I never got that film. I am more a Kelly's Heroes and The Thin Red Line man myself

[grim_tales]

The Killer, Bullet In The Head, Hard Boiled & A Better Tomorrow are all classics

[luckystars]

Imagine a world without Bullet In The Head!!

[Markgway]

Add to that a star who wanted to work with Woo but then wanted him to bow to his will and allow him to show his ass in as many scenes as he could!!

There's not a single shot of Van Damme's ass in Hard Target.

[DangerousLeeHandsome]

Woo's Best:
A Better Tomorrow - 5/5
The Killer - 5/5
Hard Boiled - 4.5/5
Red Cliff -4.5/5
Face/Off - 4/5
Bullet in the Head -4/5

Woo's most underrated:
Hard Target - 3.5/5
Broken Arrow - 3.5/5
Windtalkers - 3.5/5

Woo's Worst:
A Better Tomorrow II - 1.5/5
Once a Thief - 2/5

[grim_tales]

WindTalkers wasn't bad actually, I quite liked it - 3/5

[monzo44]

Add to that a star who wanted to work with Woo but then wanted him to bow to his will and allow him to show his ass in as many scenes as he could!!

There's not a single shot of Van Damme's ass in Hard Target.

I know, but if Van Damme had had his way there would have been. Even the fight at the end in the Mardi Gras grave yard has VD in a tank top and not topless as he wanted. VD 0 - 1 JW!!!

[monzo44]

I adore Broken Arrow and Hard Target, so it is hard for me to say anything bad about them in my eyes

Windtalkers - while I like it thats for sure, it has problems. Good stuff at points, the lead cast members are to thank for that, the rest of the cast are a bit of a problem for me as too many of them just dont stand out at all as charecters. The film never fully works, but hey is has some good action scenes and the longer cut helps the film flow better thats for sure a good solid film, but I do wish it had been a bit better in some places. Still you can tell it is a Woo film thats for sure, his name is pretty much stamped on it from the word go

I am no fan of The Big Red One, I never got that film. I am more a Kelly's Heroes and The Thin Red Line man myself

Excellent summation, I'd agree with most everything you say re: Windtalkers.

Me, I like my cake and eat it, it's The Big Red One, Kelly's Heroes and The Thin Red Line for me. I'm greedy!!!

[Markgway]

I know, but if Van Damme had had his way there would have been. Even the fight at the end in the Mardi Gras grave yard has VD in a tank top and not topless as he wanted. VD 0 - 1 JW!!!

You're being silly now.

[monzo44]

I know, but if Van Damme had had his way there would have been. Even the fight at the end in the Mardi Gras grave yard has VD in a tank top and not topless as he wanted. VD 0 - 1 JW!!!

You're being silly now.

No, seriously. I'll try to find the source, but I read that years ago. Van Damme was a real prima donna on the set and wanted his "trade mark" shots of his naked torso and either naked or boxer clad ass in the film somewhere.

They also shot a love scene which Woo had them remain clothed for and eventually he cut as it changed the dynamic between the leads too much.

That's pretty much wht VD slates Woo in JCVD, saying that he'd still be shooting pigeons in HK if it wasn't for him!!!

2 words, D - lusional!!!

[bradavon]

I know I'm inviting serious dog's abuse, but do you think Windtalkers is of lesser qulity than, say Broken Arrow or Hard Target?

Definitely not. From a technical perspective, quite the opposite.

It has less fan favourite stuff for sure but it is a really well made film and the closest Hollywood has come to a Sam Fuller style War film in the years since The Big Red One IMO.

Broken Arrow and Hard Target are out and out action films. Windtalkers is also an action film, masquerading as a serious war film. I seem to recall lots of people were annoyed it glorifies war. Which is dumb, when you consider most action films glorify violence.

[Shingster]

I still think he has had more impact on the world on HK movie fandom and more influence on how action films look than any other HK film personality ever and remains the most significant figure in it's history as a result.

You're talking about Chang Cheh aren't you?

I think Woo is guilty of the same crime as many other undoubtedly great filmmakers who never recaptured their golden years: For so many years he didn't pay enough attention or have enough quality control/feedback about characterisation and narrative, and his actors. Red Cliff changed all that.

[monzo44]

I still think he has had more impact on the world on HK movie fandom and more influence on how action films look than any other HK film personality ever and remains the most significant figure in it's history as a result.

You're talking about Chang Cheh aren't you?

I think Woo is guilty of the same crime as many other undoubtedly great filmmakers who never recaptured their golden years: For so many years he didn't pay enough attention or have enough quality control/feedback about characterisation and narrative, and his actors. Red Cliff changed all that.

Great point, well made!!! He often directs with his emotions rather than with a clinical eye, some mments of his films and even some whole films suffer for this. But it's still always a wild ride!!

For me, Chang Cheh's shadow looms large over HK cinema, but for action cinema from the US to HK and everywhere inbetween I think Woo has definitely changed the way films are made.

[monzo44]

I know I'm inviting serious dog's abuse, but do you think Windtalkers is of lesser qulity than, say Broken Arrow or Hard Target?

Definitely not. From a technical perspective, quite the opposite.

It has less fan favourite stuff for sure but it is a really well made film and the closest Hollywood has come to a Sam Fuller style War film in the years since The Big Red One IMO.

Broken Arrow and Hard Target are out and out action films. Windtalkers is also an action film, masquerading as a serious war film. I seem to recall lots of people were annoyed it glorifies war. Which is dumb, when you consider most action films glorify violence.

Absolutely!! I think Windtalkers shows as harrowing a view of war as many of it's contemporaries, it's just that people read Woo's style as being more slick and less gritty than Spielberg's.

[Shingster]

The thing about John Woo, and I agree the man is one of the greatest action directors of all time and a monumental influence on HK/US action cinema over the last 20yrs, but he didn't really pioneer most of the themes and techniques that he incorporates into his films. Sam Peckinpah and Chang Cheh beat him to many of the really influential elements of Woo's action bar maybe the dual guns and sideways aiming. For that reason I'd argue both are probably more influential on their respective film industry's cinema as a whole via cause & effect, I just feel that Woo took those techniques to their apex within the heroic bloodshed gunplay genre. You highlight a film and year: 1992, Hard Boiled - and say that's pretty much the peak of stylised gun action in cinema full stop. It's been a steady decline since, imo nobody has ever managed to top or match it (we're talking just the action here).

[bradavon]

Few directors have even tried. Luc Besson was also influential with Nikita and Leon for stylised gun action. Not to the same extent though. The shot of the camera following the bullet in Nikita is excellent.

[monzo44]

The thing about John Woo, and I agree the man is one of the greatest action directors of all time and a monumental influence on HK/US action cinema over the last 20yrs, but he didn't really pioneer most of the themes and techniques that he incorporates into his films. Sam Peckinpah and Chang Cheh beat him to many of the really influential elements of Woo's action bar maybe the dual guns and sideways aiming. For that reason I'd argue both are probably more influential on their respective film industry's cinema as a whole via cause & effect, I just feel that Woo took those techniques to their apex within the heroic bloodshed gunplay genre. You highlight a film and year: 1992, Hard Boiled - and say that's pretty much the peak of stylised gun action in cinema full stop. It's been a steady decline since, imo nobody has ever managed to top or match it (we're talking just the action here).

I agree with you whole heartedly that thematically Chang Cheh and Peckinpah along with Melville and a host of other Japanese and European directors were influential on Woo but for the way he moves the camera, and if you watch his action scenes you'll see it's rarely static, he is definitely a pioneer. Peckinpah for the blood letting and the slow-mo but Woo kinda took that and ran with it. I read an interview with one of the grips on Hard Target and he said he'd never laid as much track on a film in his years in movies!!!

Woo is of a generation where the above mentioned influences were relevent but for most young new directors they sadly aren't, but for them Woo is and that's why I think he has had more influence than any of his contemporaries on film since his rise.

[monzo44]

The thing about John Woo, and I agree the man is one of the greatest action directors of all time and a monumental influence on HK/US action cinema over the last 20yrs, but he didn't really pioneer most of the themes and techniques that he incorporates into his films. Sam Peckinpah and Chang Cheh beat him to many of the really influential elements of Woo's action bar maybe the dual guns and sideways aiming. For that reason I'd argue both are probably more influential on their respective film industry's cinema as a whole via cause & effect, I just feel that Woo took those techniques to their apex within the heroic bloodshed gunplay genre. You highlight a film and year: 1992, Hard Boiled - and say that's pretty much the peak of stylised gun action in cinema full stop. It's been a steady decline since, imo nobody has ever managed to top or match it (we're talking just the action here).

I agree with you whole heartedly that thematically Chang Cheh and Peckinpah along with Melville and a host of other Japanese and European directors were influential on Woo but for the way he moves the camera, and if you watch his action scenes you'll see it's rarely static, he is definitely a pioneer. Peckinpah for the blood letting and the slow-mo but Woo kinda took that and ran with it. I read an interview with one of the grips on Hard Target and he said he'd never laid as much track on a film in his years in movies!!!

Woo is of a generation where the above mentioned influences were relevent but for most young new directors they sadly aren't, but for them Woo is and that's why I think he has had more influence than any of his contemporaries on film since his rise.

Not on topic but I have some Eastern Heroes mags for sale on ebay if anyone is interested. They are available at http://shop.ebay.com/misterfang/m.html? ... ksid=p4340

There's also a signed Jet Li mag.

[FireTiger]

In my opinion I think that Hard Target was one of Van Damme's best films if not his best film, Thanks to how good of a director John Woo is. You have a film that has a muscular athletic hero that knows Martial Arts with lots of guns, motorcycle, and car chases with an excellent storyline, what else more could you want. Nowadays you dont see such kool action movies like back in the 80's and 90's. Something is definitely missing even with all the technology we have now.