Fist of Legend CineAsia BDUK vs DD R1 DVD vs HKV R2Fr DVD

[Shingster]

Grab 01:
CineAsia Region All BDUK | Dragon Dynasty R1US DVD | HKVideo R2Fr DVD

Grab 02:
CineAsia Region All BDUK | Dragon Dynasty R1US DVD | HKVideo R2Fr DVD

Grab 03:
CineAsia Region All BDUK | Dragon Dynasty R1US DVD | HKVideo R2Fr DVD

Grab 04:
CineAsia Region All BDUK | Dragon Dynasty R1US DVD | HKVideo R2Fr DVD

Grab 05:
CineAsia Region All BDUK | Dragon Dynasty R1US DVD | HKVideo R2Fr DVD

Grab 06:
CineAsia Region All BDUK | Dragon Dynasty R1US DVD | HKVideo R2Fr DVD

Grab 07:
CineAsia Region All BDUK | Dragon Dynasty R1US DVD | HKVideo R2Fr DVD

Grab 08:
CineAsia Region All BDUK | Dragon Dynasty R1US DVD | HKVideo R2Fr DVD

Grab 09:
CineAsia Region All BDUK | Dragon Dynasty R1US DVD | HKVideo R2Fr DVD

Grab 10:
CineAsia Region All BDUK | Dragon Dynasty R1US DVD | HKVideo R2Fr DVD

I'll be posting a full review over at DigitalFix later on this week that will go into the details of the BD release more thoroughly, but these grabs do a good job of highlighting how superior the Blu-ray is as far as video presentation is concerned. Both the BD and the Dragon Dynasty DVD have been struck from the same HD master, but every aspect of the image is improved in the BD: more detail, less pronounced EE, better balanced brightness levels, more expressive colours, and fractionally more picture information in the frame.

The only other comments I've found on this release is a cursory review from David Rees over at the KFC forums that expresses extreme disappointment with the transfer, however I think he wrote that review based mostly on how the transfer looks at the start of the film, as his main issues: Too much grain, too much EE, is at its most extreme during the opening act in Kyoto, both of which settle down as the film progresses.

Personally I think this is a good HD presentation, it's insane to expect a mid-90s HK film to exhibit the same level of grain and detail as a more contemporary release like Fearless. I doubt HK filmmakers had access to the newest cameras or the best film stocks so it's probably best to expect a 1994 HK film to look like a late 80s/early 90s Hollywood film as far as grain and detail is concerned. I reckon this HD transfer is about as good as we're going to get outside of a full remaster to balance the colours and clean up the print.

About Grab 06: You may notice that I haven't captured the exact same frame for the HKVideo release as with the DD/CA releases, this is because that frame isn't there! The HKVideo release is missing 8 frames from the start of this particular shot (makes me wonder if other frames are missing elsewhere).

[bradavon]

Is your HK Video a DVD-9 Direct Rip of the actual DVD?

The BD looks like a solid upgrade. It's a hard one to call on the DVD front, the DD DVD has more detail over all but I'm sure I see EE. The HK Video is softer and also darker. I'd probably give it to the DD. Yep definitely I'd give it to the DD.

Thanks Shing.

[chenlung]

Thanks!

Capture 9 is quite interesting - the BD reveals a bit more damage than the DVD. The HKVideo offers the least image information, not as bright and horrible colours, BUT, I can't help but think DD's master could be edge-enhanced as detail seems less accentuated (plus, it looks more even in level distribution, but that's probably down to it looking not too good anyway) - I might be wrong though. Has the white in Jet's cuff peaked on the BD (it just looks uneven when that happens - capture 4 too on the left guy's shoulder)? The luminosity could possibly be fine though. There's also the colour difference too.

Maybe salty (if he's got time) would be able to provide matching captures from Dimension's DVD? Dionbrother posted some interesting information about the release (http://kungfucinema.com/forums/showthre ... post110503, and the next page).

I've actually got Cine-Asia's DVD on rental - long wait though!

I updated the versions section last year at Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fist_of_Legend), as it was causing confusion.

I reported some stuff about HKVideo's 'Tai Chi Master' DVD (http://adg.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=3135). Maybe some of that occurs here as well?

I look forward to your review on everything!

[Shingster]

Salty no longer owns the Dimension DVD, unfortunately.

The DD DVD is sharper than the HKVideo without a shadow of a doubt. It does have very thick EE in places and more subtle EE in others, but the difference in detail seems too high for it to be down to the artificial sharpening alone.

It's hard to gauge how accurate the levels of the HKVideo transfer is because it is noticeably "cooler" and darker, with weak black and white levels in some scenes. Both the DD-DVD and CA-BD transfers could well have a little clipping in some grabs that the HKVideo doesn't appear to suffer from but I'm going to have to look into that with more detail I think, because I would have fought given the haphazard nature of older HK productions some scenes could very well be over or under exposed (I guess it's possible the HKV transfer has been levelled to reduce any over or underexposure inherent to how the film was shot). We're probably looking at a diverse variation in exposure from shot to shot in scenes like the Li-Kurata fight because (as I mentioned in our discussion in the CineAsia thread) it took something like 14days to shoot (I think), and some days are very sunny compared to others. So that one scene for example might not be the best choice for gauging levels. I think some of the simpler interior scenes will yield a more stable base for me to get stuck into.

Capture 9 is quite interesting - the BD reveals a bit more damage than the DVD.

Yup, I should've mentioned that in my OP and I've written a little about this in my upcoming review but the DVD does appear to have had a little extra work on it beyond the HD master stage, there seems to be thicker EE in certain shots and a little less noise (mostly cleaning flecks and pops, but again this is something I've got to really go through the DD DVD to get a full feel for). I'd say that the HD master itself has definitely had EE applied because you often can see the exact same halos when comparing the BD to the DD-DVD, but the haloes are "softer" in the DVD.

[Shingster]

I reported some stuff about HKVideo's 'Tai Chi Master' DVD (http://adg.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=3135). Maybe some of that occurs here as well?

I don't own DD's Tai Chi Master DVD so it's hard for me to say whether any of the issues with that release are there in the CA BD, plus although I own the DD DVD I haven't actually sat and watched it properly like I have the CA BD. All I can say is that there were no noticeable issues with framerates or blurring when I watched the film twice on my 109" screen - there are around 2 or 3 very brief shots where the detail drops substantially, almost like the print was deteriorated or they had to source them from a lower resolution source, or maybe something odd about the way these shots were originally filmed, I don't know.

Going through the BD frame-by-frame (not for the entire film because that would have been madness!) I noticed one strange kind of glitch in two frames (not two subsequent frames, but one frame on minute, another frame a little later on) during the scene when the Black Dragon students cause a ruckus inside Jing Wu Men. The frames look like they have been torn apart horizontally and then a copy of the frame was used to piece the image back together again but kind of wrong so there's a doublingup of the image. Because this only affects two single frames you can't really detect it in regular playback.

[chenlung]

Both the DD-DVD and CA-BD transfers could well have a little clipping in some grabs that the HKVideo doesn't appear to suffer from but I'm going to have to look into that with more detail I think, because I would have fought given the haphazard nature of older HK productions some scenes could very well be over or under exposed (I guess it's possible the HKV transfer has been levelled to reduce any over or underexposure inherent to how the film was shot).

Until the Blu-Ray came, DD and HKVideo were rather similar in terms of colour and clipping, which did make me think about your theory about raw presentations.

It did seem to clip when it came to Mitsuko's face. I tried altering the image in Photoshop (both fixing that and altering colours to match Dimension's), but wasn't unable.

I don't own DD's Tai Chi Master DVD so it's hard for me to say whether any of the issues with that release are there in the CA BD

It was to see if the faults in HKVideo's 'TCM' were also apparent in their release of 'FOL' .

Going through the BD frame-by-frame (not for the entire film because that would have been madness!) I noticed one strange kind of glitch in two frames (not two subsequent frames, but one frame on minute, another frame a little later on) during the scene when the Black Dragon students cause a ruckus inside Jing Wu Men. The frames look like they have been torn apart horizontally and then a copy of the frame was used to piece the image back together again but kind of wrong so there's a doublingup of the image. Because this only affects two single frames you can't really detect it in regular playback.

Something similar may have happened a few times in the initial HKL DVD of 'The Big Boss' (beginning of the mourning scene, and after Cheng launches into attack), where it looks as if the frame was reconstructed (it shakes and blurs a little).

[Markgway]

Good work, Shingster.

This has convinced me to buy the Cine Asia BD.

The positives (1080p, 24fps, solid image, reasonable subs, Cantonese mono) clearly outweight the flaws (occasional dubtitles, missing final shot, English credits).

[bradavon]

The final shot, is that the one with the crew? If so, it's not really part of the film anyway.

The DD DVD is sharper than the HKVideo without a shadow of a doubt. It does have very thick EE in places and more subtle EE in others, but the difference in detail seems too high for it to be down to the artificial sharpening alone.

That's basically what I was thinking. Given that the HKVideo is a good DVD and got high praise, add in that the DD is better. It would seem odd, it isn't also getting praise. Like you say, some people are expecting it to fail. It's a "mid-90s HK film" for Christ sake.

I only find this film "fairly good" but if I loved it as much as you guys, I'd say the BD is an easy purchase.

[chenlung]

I can understand why you didn't like it Brad - I've been the same with certain movies ('DM2', 'Pedicab Driver', etc). It just depends on how you approach it - same with anything else.

[bradavon]

I didn't say I didn't like it but I know many adore it. I think it's a 6 out of 10 film (maybe 5). I much prefer his OUATIC Trilogy. Those are great. DM2 and Pedicab Driver didn't work for me either.

[saltysam]

Fist Of Legend is a great movie,one of the select few i can rewatch on a regular basis.Drunken Master 2 & Pedicab Driver are awesome and need definitive releases.

[Shingster]

It was to see if the faults in HKVideo's 'TCM' were also apparent in their release of 'FOL' .

Haha! Sorry Chen, I thought you were linking to more reported problems with the DD TCM DVD and asking if any of those issues were on the DD-DVD/CA-BD of FOL!!

My excuse is that I was a bit zombified this morning having had little sleep, taken a 4hr power nap since then though!

[chenlung]

Cool mate .

[Shingster]

I forgot to ask this earlier Chen: Didn't you get in touch with CineAsia a while ago about them improving the subs on their FOL release?

[chenlung]

I forgot to ask this earlier Chen: Didn't you get in touch with CineAsia a while ago about them improving the subs on their FOL release?

I more-or-less asked if they were able to make general changes (not specifying 'Fist Of Legend').

I'm not sure Cine-Asia themselves improved the translation, because it's been said to me DD's Spanish subtitles are based on the improved English subtitles, bizarrely found on the later Cine-Asia release, but not DD's.

[romerojpg]

I wonder how much worse the fights can look in HD. Stunt men and shocking doubles gut the film to start , HD will only make that shit worse.

[chenlung]

I wonder how much worse the fights can look in HD. Stunt men and shocking doubles gut the film to start , HD will only make that shit worse.

Because of HD, people are going to be literal when they say they're "off to powder their nose" .

[romerojpg]

Sadly Asian films have some of the worst make-up people so HD does make them more obvious. Even a massive budget film like Red Cliff was hialriously bad in HD, the amount of pathetic sideburns, taches, and wigs were off the scale it was if is Shaw brothers had started making films again, but with a bigger budget and you can still see all the glue and fake plug ins.

[chenlung]

Sadly Asian films have some of the worst make-up people so HD does make them more obvious. Even a massive budget film like Red Cliff was hialriously bad in HD, the amount of pathetic sideburns, taches, and wigs were off the scale it was if is Shaw brothers had started making films again, but with a bigger budget and you can still see all the glue and fake plug ins.

I noticed that about 'Red Cliff' - really shocking! From 1993, there's Iron Monkey' (http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film2/DVDRevie ... lu-ray.htm) - not only can you see the scarring, but a dummy Wong Fei Hung during the finale .

Of course, Western films don't get off lightly. Pirates Of The Carribean (http://current.com/groups/too-much-info ... adidas.htm) - I suppose the film's message could have been about imitation products .

[bradavon]

I'm so, so pleased I never spot this stuff and still gutted Tom posted a bloody screenshot spotting the Arnie stunt double in T2 during the bike chase scene. I notice it every time now and it takes me out of the film, before I didn't spot it.

Of course, Western films don't get off lightly. Pirates Of The Carribean (http://current.com/groups/too-much-info ... adidas.htm) - I suppose the film's message could have been about imitation products .

Ha ha. Average film at best, way, way overrated.

[Markgway]

The final shot, is that the one with the crew? If so, it's not really part of the film anyway.

No, it's the one with Chin Siu-Ho running with his students to show that Jing Wu lives. I don't know if the crew shot is present or not. Probably not.

[bradavon]

Oh. Why would they feel they should cut that? Most odd.

[Markgway]

But then Dimension are odd. They like to have something to cut.

[Yi-Long]

Oh. Why would they feel they should cut that? Most odd.

Because they're fucking morons. Which is why people like me get upset so often because of their bullshit.

[Shingster]

I'm not sure Cine-Asia themselves improved the translation, because it's been said to me DD's Spanish subtitles are based on the improved English subtitles, bizarrely found on the later Cine-Asia release, but not DD's.

Interesting, so it could be that the Eng subs on the BD represent the original English translation that was made by DD, but they decided to edit in some of the dub translation for their final R1 retail release.

Dionbrother posted some interesting information about the release (http://kungfucinema.com/forums/showthre ... post110503, and the next page).

So I take it, given Mark and Yi's recent comments, that the general consensus here is that Dimension made the cuts themselves and Dionbrother is mistaken? I must admit that there doesn't seem to be any logical reason for them to cut that final shot of the film. Either way another company has released FOL in Europe uncut so you would have thought CineAsia would be able to procure the HK print if they so desired.