It's that time again. A discussion on Hoarders and Elitists

[oldeschool17]

I'm a little late but I happen to come upon this thread
http://www.kungfucinema.com/forums/show ... php?t=9765

This is some of the saddest shit i've seen in all my time visiting kung fu message boards. I don't know what's worst. Toby Russell pawning off a dirty print(that is apparently on par with the Choy Lee Fat print that was put out on Rarescope ) for £2000, the elitist attitude that has always existed with Falkor, or the 16+ individuals willing to part with £100+ to get a measly dvd-r while putting faith in Falkor to deliver. What is the assurance of these 16+ individuals in getting their dvd-r's in a timely manner, let alone at all? If I recall correctly, isn't Falkor notorious for pulling bait and switch prints or taking forever or never to dispatch orders?

[saltysam]

only ever bought from Falkor's site once-got the disc but it was pricey. i wouldn't be criticising the 16 collectors who are prepared to pay the £100-what have they done wrong? i was interested myself until my comment about a custom cover was met with a rather short response from Falkor. if i had gone for it i'd have distributed it freely,not hoarded it.it's an old kung fu basher ffs not the holy grail!

[Shingster]

I can't be arsed to read through all that, but are you saying that they're only paying for DVD-R copies struck from the print? If so you've got to give falkor credit, it takes a monumental amount of gall to ask fans to invest £100+ in a print that they won't even be gaining partial ownership in, it's a bit like asking someone to fork up $5000 towards his new BMW for the pleasure of being able to ride in it once in a while! - or how about investing in a costly painting at $200 a pop just for a photograph of it! Do these peole not realise that folkor can sell the print on at a future date and potentially make a decent chunk of change from it?

If the fans had any sense they'd get together and put in an offer behind his back and if successful charge folkor £250 for the pleasure of striking a DVD-R copy from it! Mind you if they had any sense then I'm sure they could haggle that price way down, it's not like Toby will be fighting off potential buyers!

[oldeschool17]

http://www.kungfucinema.com/forums/show ... stcount=19
Dvd-r's. This thread isn't so much of a slight on the buyers, although, i think its madness to pay for something that is shit quality and in dvd-r format. However, by agreeing to Falkors dickheaded demands, it basically perpetuates this type of behavior. My main gripe is Toby Russell charging an assload for a self proclaimed "awesome rare" and Falkor acting like he's the messiah in organizing this money roundup.

[Killer Meteor]

Toby Russel is a nice enough guy from all accounts but his "professional" dvds are awful. The Eastern Heroes Jackie Chan films were old full frame prints cropped to widescreen, no subtitles on Hot Cool And Vicious or Cantonese track on Snake Deadly Act when the VIDEOS had them etc

The Racescope DVDs started off truly awful because the damn telecine stage was wrong, resulting in the picture constantly showing a locked in ghosting process. They never bother to correct the original burnt in subs, which isn't a problem with Ninjas And Dragons*, where the original subs were good english, but is a constant nightmare on Choi Lee Fut Kung Fu, where half the subs aren't technically there, they're just descriptive (eg. "They are praying" "Name of boxing act" etc)

And just to confirm the amateurishness of it all, I watched the Vengeance Video of Magnificent Chivalry, which DID have new subs in a black box, to go over the (dutch?) originals on the print, but, as with various Vengeance Video covers, whoever did them does not know that "I before E except after C", resulting in constant references to "my good freind" and so on.

Among Russell's other faults, his utter inability to mike his interviewees or even get a godamn TRIPOD for its interviews, resulting in interviews with more dutch tilts then a Batman episode! He sure doesn't take after his dad (hey, I liked Lair Of The White Worm!). Also, when interviewed, it strikes me as somewhat odd that all his favourite movies are ones avaliable from Vengeance, Rarescope or Eastern Heroes. I mean, I love Snake & Crane too, but come on!

I'll have a Part 2 rant on Falkor later!

[Killer Meteor]

Falkor is mostly a loon, someone who dismisses all other genres out of hand whilst praising the shittiest kung fu movies because it has a few shapes - with the curious exception: he loathes Exit The Dragon, Enter The Tiger, one of my old school faves! He posts threads where he questions people's competency as fans because they haven't seen 7 Grandmasters (oh sure, he claims its his friends who say that but you know...)

"I find it absurd to suggest other genre classics could be anywhere near as good as Kung Fu classics." - Falkor


http://www.kungfucinema.com/forums/show ... php?t=8140
http://www.kungfucinema.com/forums/show ... php?t=8143
http://www.kungfucinema.com/forums/show ... php?t=8141
http://www.kungfucinema.com/forums/show ... php?t=8142



Because a title is rare, its enough for Falkor and his cronies to champion it as some lost classic. Yet frequently, these rares turn out to be quite sub-standard. Showdown At The Cotton Mill was a slow moving rehash of Men From The Monastary, with non existent direction, wooden acting and a poor plot. Massacre Survivor, judging from the clip, looks slow and unremarkable, yet Falkor is championing this whilst wondering why people are so interested in The Big Boss!

Heck, for all I know, Falkor is Toby Russel!

And will someone teach both of these guys what anamorphic widescreen means?

[Shingster]

So are the guys over at KFC sure he's not just taking the piss? If I read the OP in that first link then I would immediately assume he's either deliberately being tongue-in-cheek or indeed a friend is using his account and having a laugh, or he's completely insane!

If he's for real then he kinda reminds me of jeroen over at TheAsianDVDGuide only less intelligent and more zealous, he was equally as dismissive about any form of cinema that didn't fall within his own limited preferences.

I wonder how many people on these boards have seen or own 7 Grandmasters and The Victim!

[romerojpg]

I am just confused as to why anone in this world would pay that much for a film even in HD, thats a joke.

As far as I know I own 7 Grandmasters (not very good film) and The Victim! (quality Sammo film?) on dvd, if they are the films you on about? But knowing me they are on about others, as frankly it gets confusing when you have so many asian films.

[saltysam]

I have 7 Grandmasters and The Victim.Grandmasters isn't all that great tbh but The Victim is a classic.

[Shingster]

I am just confused as to why anone in this world would pay that much for a film even in HD, thats a joke.

Oh I can understand the appeal to the fans entirely, if I had £100 to spare and someone said it could earn me a "DVD quality" DVD-R rip of Pedicab Driver uncut I'd actually be tempted for a second. What I don't get is why they'd be willing to essentially buy a film print for someone else! Those guys who are gratiously sending falkor the cash should be part-owners in the print and should demand someone sort of rudimentary contract of ownership as IMO owning a rare film print is no less serious an investmant than owning a work of art like a painting or sculpture.

The Victim is indeed a Sammo Hung film romero, it's the one where Leung Kar Yan fights in a stance with his arms crossed. I quite like 7 Grandmasters and consider it a classic, but not in the same vein as the likes of Heroes of the East, Prodigal Son, Magnificent Butcher, Fist of Fury, etc, etc.

[HungFist]

jeroen

The only person in the world on whose recommendations I have ever given any value.

Also a guy with very good sense of humor and self irony. Unfortunately that went way beyond most people's understanding.

[Shingster]

Oh please, he was a film snob with an absolutely terrible sense of humour. Any guy who leaves a forum in a huff and deletes all of his posts (hundreds of them) does not have any sense of self irony. I got along with him quite well and greatly respected his knowledge and opinion because I largely agreed with him when he was impressed by a film, but the guy was immensely dismissive of the rest of the folk on TheAsianDVDGuide who dared to focus on Chinese or South Korean cinema over Japanese (or even worse, be a fan of regular Anime!). His opinion of people from other forums was even lower! KFCC anyone?

[romerojpg]

I am just confused as to why anone in this world would pay that much for a film even in HD, thats a joke.

Oh I can understand the appeal to the fans entirely, if I had £100 to spare and someone said it could earn me a "DVD quality" DVD-R rip of Pedicab Driver uncut I'd actually be tempted for a second. What I don't get is why they'd be willing to essentially buy a film print for someone else! Those guys who are gratiously sending falkor the cash should be part-owners in the print and should demand someone sort of rudimentary contract of ownership as IMO owning a rare film print is no less serious an investmant than owning a work of art like a painting or sculpture.

I guess that thnking kind of makes more sense, if you have cash to toss about on stuff like this then hey people may as well go for what they love. Still the whole invest and buy for you, and then give you a copy in the end does feel odd, but yes I do see the thought of paying so much if you really need to see that film.

Mind you after all paid about £100 for a Charmed Wooden Chest Dvd box set many of them may think I am mental.

[HungFist]

Oh please, he was a film snob with an absolutely terrible sense of humour. Any guy who leaves a forum in a huff and deletes all of his posts (hundreds of them) does not have any sense of self irony. I got along with him quite well and greatly respected his knowledge and opinion because I largely agreed with him when he was impressed by a film, but the guy was immensely dismissive of the rest of the folk on TheAsianDVDGuide who dared to focus on Chinese or South Korean cinema over Japanese (or even worse, be a fan of regular Anime!). His opinion of people from other forums was even lower! KFCC anyone?

Well, KFCC was a laughing stock to be honest...

Deleting all his posts wasn't the nicest thing, but I can understand him to some extent.

Such incidents aside, yes, he did have a good sense of humor. One of the best I have come across. I remember how many times I was amazed by how everyone took him literally (is that the right expression) and could not see how he was playing his role and playing with people's expectations. Often he had the tongue partly in the cheeck. But of course, all good jokes feature half truth, and so did his.

[HungFist]

film snob

Film snob is a good thing, btw. Those "objective" critics or movie viewers tend to be utterly useless. A total bore to read, and you never really learn to "read" these people as it's difficult to figure out their personality... cause they / their text has none.

Night now. おやすみ

[grim_tales]

Those old Eastern Heroes JC DVDs were terrible.

[Shingster]

Nothing wrong with being a film snob when forming a personal opinion on cinema, but people like jeroen and it seems, this falkor guy, would dismiss people entirely depending on their cinematic tastes. He generally viewed HK and Korean film fans as being less intelligent and tasteful than himself and would making sweeping generalisations about an entire film industry and the fandom that went along with it.

Of course I'd give you examples of that if he hadn't deleted all of his posts after a series of fairly innocuous disagreements with over AsianDVDGuide members, but this is the guy who started posting in a completely seperate, abandoned forum because he didn't want to see the threads that discussed other forms of Asian cinema than the ones he deemed noteworthy. I've used this particular example before, but this is also the guy who lamented a subtitled DVD rip of Typhoon Club being made available on the internet/e-bay because it meant that the likes of the "plebs" over at KFCC could also discover the film! That's got to be one of the most egregious examples of fanatic elitism I've ever come across in my years visiting film forums.

I've got a quote this time:

the whole thing of a subtitled TAIFU CLUB being available to every cretin in the world pisses me off to no end, to the point where i don't feel like being part of this whole japanese film scene anymore. I'm crazy like that.

Here's one reply you might remember a certain other member making :

I know how you feel. I wasn't happy at all when I heard the news about that new script. Taifu Club is the one movie that I wish would have remained limited to those who can actually appreciate great cinema.

But seriously though the above is a good example of the kind of unproductive fan elitism that oldeschool is going on about. I for one was very happy to see it freely available subtitled (although it occured too late for myself to take advantage of it) and I know of a few film fans with an equal or greater "capacity" than you or I to appreciate "great cinema" who discovered the film because of this. A few fans fapping themselves to sleep at night because they belong to some form of esoteric club of people who appreciate a hidden arthouse gem or Kung Fu Classic and have copies of it doesn't do anything to help said film or its filmmaker find an audience in the future.

Without getting into a debate on objective/subjective criticism as I feel that both forms have equal merit and few reviewers fall into either category solely, but bland or not I tend to think it's the objective film critics whose tastes you can get a feel for because that's the whole by-product of being objective - they assess each film on impartial merits unlike subjective film critics who can let one random aspect of a film colour their opinion because they're over-opinionated on that particular aspect - For instance a critic disliking Tom Cruise personally so will slag off one of his films, or a Japanese film fan being obsessed with the notion of "cute actors" and tending to accept and follow films that would otherwise turn them off because it's got a particular idol or actor starring in it. That's not aimed straight at you btw Hung, as in my experience most hardcore Japanese film fans online are very similar in this regard. Personally I've always accepted it and learnt to figure out how to apply it towards my own personal tastes, but I've never quite understood it!

[oldeschool17]

Falkor is mostly a loon, someone who dismisses all other genres out of hand whilst praising the shittiest kung fu movies because it has a few shapes - with the curious exception: he loathes Exit The Dragon, Enter The Tiger, one of my old school faves! He posts threads where he questions people's competency as fans because they haven't seen 7 Grandmasters (oh sure, he claims its his friends who say that but you know...)

"I find it absurd to suggest other genre classics could be anywhere near as good as Kung Fu classics." - Falkor


http://www.kungfucinema.com/forums/show ... php?t=8140
http://www.kungfucinema.com/forums/show ... php?t=8143
http://www.kungfucinema.com/forums/show ... php?t=8141
http://www.kungfucinema.com/forums/show ... php?t=8142



Because a title is rare, its enough for Falkor and his cronies to champion it as some lost classic. Yet frequently, these rares turn out to be quite sub-standard. Showdown At The Cotton Mill was a slow moving rehash of Men From The Monastary, with non existent direction, wooden acting and a poor plot. Massacre Survivor, judging from the clip, looks slow and unremarkable, yet Falkor is championing this whilst wondering why people are so interested in The Big Boss!

Heck, for all I know, Falkor is Toby Russel!

And will someone teach both of these guys what anamorphic widescreen means?

As a buddy of mine says, "It's rare for a reason"(read: it sucks).

[romerojpg]

the whole thing of a subtitled TAIFU CLUB being available to every cretin in the world pisses me off to no end, to the point where i don't feel like being part of this whole japanese film scene anymore. I'm crazy like that.

I know how you feel. I wasn't happy at all when I heard the news about that new script. Taifu Club is the one movie that I wish would have remained limited to those who can actually appreciate great cinema.

Haha what a full on hardcore tiny Penis

[oldeschool17]

Nothing wrong with being a film snob when forming a personal opinion on cinema, but people like jeroen and it seems, this falkor guy, would dismiss people entirely depending on their cinematic tastes. He generally viewed HK and Korean film fans as being less intelligent and tasteful than himself and would making sweeping generalisations about an entire film industry and the fandom that went along with it.

Of course I'd give you examples of that if he hadn't deleted all of his posts after a series of fairly innocuous disagreements with over AsianDVDGuide members, but this is the guy who started posting in a completely seperate, abandoned forum because he didn't want to see the threads that discussed other forms of Asian cinema than the ones he deemed noteworthy. I've used this particular example before, but this is also the guy who lamented a subtitled DVD rip of Typhoon Club being made available on the internet/e-bay because it meant that the likes of the "plebs" over at KFCC could also discover the film! That's got to be one of the most egregious examples of fanatic elitism I've ever come across in my years visiting film forums.

I've got a quote this time:

the whole thing of a subtitled TAIFU CLUB being available to every cretin in the world pisses me off to no end, to the point where i don't feel like being part of this whole japanese film scene anymore. I'm crazy like that.

Here's one reply you might remember a certain other member making :

I know how you feel. I wasn't happy at all when I heard the news about that new script. Taifu Club is the one movie that I wish would have remained limited to those who can actually appreciate great cinema.

But seriously though the above is a good example of the kind of unproductive fan elitism that oldeschool is going on about. I for one was very happy to see it freely available subtitled (although it occured too late for myself to take advantage of it) and I know of a few film fans with an equal or greater "capacity" than you or I to appreciate "great cinema" who discovered the film because of this. A few fans fapping themselves to sleep at night because they belong to some form of esoteric club of people who appreciate a hidden arthouse gem or Kung Fu Classic and have copies of it doesn't do anything to help said film or its filmmaker find an audience in the future.

Without getting into a debate on objective/subjective criticism as I feel that both forms have equal merit and few reviewers fall into either category solely, but bland or not I tend to think it's the objective film critics whose tastes you can get a feel for because that's the whole by-product of being objective - they assess each film on impartial merits unlike subjective film critics who can let one random aspect of a film colour their opinion because they're over-opinionated on that particular aspect - For instance a critic disliking Tom Cruise personally so will slag off one of his films, or a Japanese film fan being obsessed with the notion of "cute actors" and tending to accept and follow films that would otherwise turn them off because it's got a particular idol or actor starring in it. That's not aimed straight at you btw Hung, as in my experience most hardcore Japanese film fans online are very similar in this regard. Personally I've always accepted it and learnt to figure out how to apply it towards my own personal tastes, but I've never quite understood it!

Good post. It really boils down to a massive ego with regards to my criticism of kf movie elitism. I think this quote in his first post that he decided to grey out(lol wtf is that shit?) is truly telling of his mentality as well as other jack ass hoarder/elitists:

Obviously, as I'm the biggest fan I might have to pay out all that money just to get a copy for myself, but then you can bet at that price I wouldn't want to give it to anyone else.

It's as though these jackasses think the movie producers made the movie so that THEY could only watch it. Such selfishness is ridiculous over a fucking movie which is usually in shitty condition, mind you.

[oldeschool17]

Toby Russel is a nice enough guy from all accounts but his "professional" dvds are awful. The Eastern Heroes Jackie Chan films were old full frame prints cropped to widescreen, no subtitles on Hot Cool And Vicious or Cantonese track on Snake Deadly Act when the VIDEOS had them etc

The Racescope DVDs started off truly awful because the damn telecine stage was wrong, resulting in the picture constantly showing a locked in ghosting process. They never bother to correct the original burnt in subs, which isn't a problem with Ninjas And Dragons*, where the original subs were good english, but is a constant nightmare on Choi Lee Fut Kung Fu, where half the subs aren't technically there, they're just descriptive (eg. "They are praying" "Name of boxing act" etc)

And just to confirm the amateurishness of it all, I watched the Vengeance Video of Magnificent Chivalry, which DID have new subs in a black box, to go over the (dutch?) originals on the print, but, as with various Vengeance Video covers, whoever did them does not know that "I before E except after C", resulting in constant references to "my good freind" and so on.

Among Russell's other faults, his utter inability to mike his interviewees or even get a godamn TRIPOD for its interviews, resulting in interviews with more dutch tilts then a Batman episode! He sure doesn't take after his dad (hey, I liked Lair Of The White Worm!). Also, when interviewed, it strikes me as somewhat odd that all his favourite movies are ones avaliable from Vengeance, Rarescope or Eastern Heroes. I mean, I love Snake & Crane too, but come on!

I'll have a Part 2 rant on Falkor later!

Choi Lee Fat had horrible burnt in subs from what I can remember. I could deal with the shit vid quality but it was dredge to watch that film in its entirety.

[Markgway]

he loathes Exit The Dragon, Enter The Tiger, one of my old school faves!

Let it go!!

I wonder how many people on these boards have seen or own 7 Grandmasters and The Victim!

I have!!

What I don't get is why they'd be willing to essentially buy a film print for someone else!

Unless I've misunderstood... Falkor isn't buying the print. He's paying for Toby Russell to telecine the print and create a DVD-R master copy. The investors then get a DVD-R copy each taken from Falkor's original DVD-R. Toby keeps the 35mm print.

But seriously though the above is a good example of the kind of unproductive fan elitism that oldeschool is going on about. I for one was very happy to see it freely available subtitled (although it occured too late for myself to take advantage of it) and I know of a few film fans with an equal or greater "capacity" than you or I to appreciate "great cinema" who discovered the film because of this. A few fans fapping themselves to sleep at night because they belong to some form of esoteric club of people who appreciate a hidden arthouse gem or Kung Fu Classic and have copies of it doesn't do anything to help said film or its filmmaker find an audience in the future.

Lol... I've made my own feelings regarding elitist fans clear on several forums over the years. Falkor is guilty as hell. These films are made for eveyone not just a few knobs who think they're superior for no reason whatsoever.

[Shingster]

It's as though these jackasses think the movie producers made the movie so that THEY could only watch it. Such selfishness is ridiculous over a fucking movie which is usually in shitty condition, mind you.

Yeah I don't understand the mentality of hoarding film prints, of course I can understand the need to maintain the condition of a print and not wear it out with over-use, but if I had access to one of the only known copies of an ultra rare and forgotten "classic" (or even half a classic!) the first thing I'd do is try and figure out a way to get that film onto DVD for fans to enjoy. I might want to charge a little bit of cash for copies, but only enough to recoup some of the cost - and certainly nothing out of the realms of your average HK film fan! I'd also try and arrange a theatrical showing of the print at one or more locations as well.

At the very least encouraging fans to check the film out and appreciate it would mean I've got a better chance of finding a prospective buyer and actually making a profit should I decide to sell the print on at a later date!

[Shingster]

Unless I've misunderstood... Falkor isn't buying the print. He's paying for Toby Russell to telecine the print and create a DVD-R master copy. The investors then get a DVD-R copy each taken from Falkor's original DVD-R. Toby keeps the 35mm print.

That makes more sense, although as an investor in the £2000 fee I would want partial ownership of the digital master and thus recieve a cut of any profits Falkor were to make if he decided to sell DVD-R copies to other fans outside the circle of ownership (although I'd have no problem with him selling copies at cost).

[oldeschool17]

he loathes Exit The Dragon, Enter The Tiger, one of my old school faves!

Let it go!!

I wonder how many people on these boards have seen or own 7 Grandmasters and The Victim!

I have!!

What I don't get is why they'd be willing to essentially buy a film print for someone else!

Unless I've misunderstood... Falkor isn't buying the print. He's paying for Toby Russell to telecine the print and create a DVD-R master copy. The investors then get a DVD-R copy each taken from Falkor's original DVD-R. Toby keeps the 35mm print.

But seriously though the above is a good example of the kind of unproductive fan elitism that oldeschool is going on about. I for one was very happy to see it freely available subtitled (although it occured too late for myself to take advantage of it) and I know of a few film fans with an equal or greater "capacity" than you or I to appreciate "great cinema" who discovered the film because of this. A few fans fapping themselves to sleep at night because they belong to some form of esoteric club of people who appreciate a hidden arthouse gem or Kung Fu Classic and have copies of it doesn't do anything to help said film or its filmmaker find an audience in the future.

Lol... I've made my own feelings regarding elitist fans clear on several forums over the years. Falkor is guilty as hell. These films are made for eveyone not just a few knobs who think they're superior for no reason whatsoever.

There is no way in hell it costs that much to telecine the film. Maybe $500 USD max. Somebody is taking the piss