How religious are you?

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 20 Sep 2005, 23:50

What do you guys feel about religion and God and all that stuff...

Personally, I feel it's all a load of bullshit, this whole religion-stuff.
I was at a friend's funeral last week and apperently she and her family were VERY religious so there were lots of songs and a priest preaching etc.

Man, the crap that this guy was saying made me angry. A young girl had just died, and here he was using her and her death as some kind of opportunity to convince more people to go to church and be religious and stuff, or die in sin (basically). How are nutcases like these still allowed in our society? Cause seriously, these people are loony. They're straight out of their flipping minds.

I can understand religion to a certain degree. Believing in a 'higher force' or whatever... thinking there's 'something' out there that's maybe bigger then just mankind ... but this bible-crap... nah...it just doesnt fly with me. talking about God's masterplan that this girl had to die, and we should be happy that she is now with God: Bullocks.

Now, the parents, being religious and all, really seemed to buy all this crap, but i just gotta wonder how much of that 'faith' is REAL, or just an act. I'm sure they think their faith is real, but what happens when they start to think for themselfs, instead of letting a book and a crazy guy ina white dress dictate their thoughts for them!?

Personally, I think their MIGHT be life after death, and that's mainly cause I've read some storeis about reincarnation and talking to death people etc. I'm not sure ofcourse, and quite frankly, I dont really care. If there is, I'd like to spend eternity with my current girlfriend, and if there isn't, then I also cant be dissapointed, can I? So it's kinda a win-win situation either way.

I don't believe in God though. I dont believe in a masterplan or a heaven or angels or whatever. I honestly feel these religious people are missing a couple of vital braincells. How can they swallow up shit like this without it having any basis!? Why do they trust these guys that seem so out of touch with everyday reality!? Why don't people open their minds!?

...and now I know people are gonna say:' why don't YOU open your mind to God and religion and the holy Bible'
Well... is it fact-based? Is it scientifically-proven? Is it better reading-material then Harry Potter?

Anyway, what are all your thoughts on the subject, cause it's been on my mind ever since the funeral, plus some polls suggest many people are still very religious... which I really cant understand...

tom2681 · Post by **tom2681** » 21 Sep 2005, 00:16

God exists.
And so does Santa Claus !

If you want to talk to God, you can find him here:
http://www.titane.ca/concordia/dfar251/igod/main.html

He's a very nice chap.

BTW, did you know that Jesus was a guest-star on Wong Jing's Evil Cult ?

On a more serious note:

To me: Religion = nonsense.
Jesus H. Christ = very lucky guy, who probably escaped from an asylum and believed he was some sort of god.

I don't believe in life after death either.
Nor do I believe in a soul. What we call a soul is just the interaction of zillions of neurons. When we die, the neurons die with us.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 21 Sep 2005, 15:38

You all know how I feel about fixed religion...

But I'm open to some sort of er, being, out there creating and controlling the Universe (if only because I can't explain otherwise).

Thus I voted for Option #3.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 21 Sep 2005, 15:43

Hmm.. dunno.
I voted for 3). I dont believe in God (if God created the Universe, who created God?

) - maybe I'm an Agnostic.
If there is a God/designer why is there masses of evidence supporting Darwin's evoloution theory

The evoloution thing is more likely IMO.

Unrealnils · Post by **Unrealnils** » 21 Sep 2005, 18:01

im a mixture of dont really know and dont really care .........

Who creadted the donner kebeb ???/ know theres a bloke (or lady) i'd shake the hand of................

romerojpg · Post by **romerojpg** » 21 Sep 2005, 18:07

Not at all, its forced on people thru time and now most peole think there is a god, even if they have NO PROOF in any way.

Its like believing that the earth is a slug on the back of a potatoe and we are all computer genarated mice, I think it real!
but I cannot prove it

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 21 Sep 2005, 18:13

romerojpg wrote:Its like believing that the earth is a slug on the back of a potatoe and we are all computer genarated mice, I think it real!
but I cannot prove it

I think you're on to something

romerojpg · Post by **romerojpg** » 21 Sep 2005, 18:13

Eeek!

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 21 Sep 2005, 18:20

I'm Muslim all the way. Who says the presence of God cannot be proven? Prophet Muhammed is proof. I'm not going to give religion lessons here, so don't ask me about the proof as I'm not going to write down the proof of God's existance. If you're really interested, may I recommend reading prophet Mohammed's biography written by Essad Bey? This guy was a jew and converted to Islam after his escape from Russia. This will give a lot of insight into the history of Islam and it will make you understand why so many people really believe in Allah.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASI ... 03-9150252

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 21 Sep 2005, 19:11

How is prophet Muhammed proof of the existence of (a) God? Cause HE says so?

LD: Did you grow up in a very religious family, or did you become religious by yourself? I ask cause it seems when you grow up believing in something, it's very hard to suddenly realize that everything you believed in, MIGHT not be real, or truth.
Do you ever question faith and religion in general? And if you did, would you honestly say so? Or do you feel it's a sin to question faith?

Unrealnils · Post by **Unrealnils** » 21 Sep 2005, 19:22

jesus can of worms.........have been nuked from orbit

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 21 Sep 2005, 19:33

Its' been documented Jesus exsisted... hmmm

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 21 Sep 2005, 19:42

Ow, I have no doubt a guy called Jesus existed. Him being the son of 'God' is a completely different matter, though...

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 21 Sep 2005, 19:55

Yi-Long wrote:How is prophet Muhammed proof of the existence of (a) God? Cause HE says so?

Nope, because this simple shepherd and business man from the desert (who was an analphabet on top of that) was suddenly able to compete with the best poets in Mekka. When people praised him for "his" uncomparable words, he would tell them that they are Allah's words and up until today, not even the greatest poets have succeeded in writing something even similar to a scratch of the style of the Qur'an. Being acknowledged by people like Goethe or Schiller as the highest acknowledgement in world's literature, it is hard for me to believe that a simple Arab man who was born in the desert made these words up, especially in a time where chaos reigned the Arab world.

LD: Did you grow up in a very religious family, or did you become religious by yourself? I ask cause it seems when you grow up believing in something, it's very hard to suddenly realize that everything you believed in, MIGHT not be real, or truth.

OMG, I knew this was coming, lol! As soon as one says he's religious, he's gonna meet people who tell him he was born into a religious family and doesn't really believe in his God and is only afraid to say so, because if he does his people won't accept him anymore etc etc! You can say it directly or carefully with nice words... it leads up to that assumption. Do I have to justify myself that I believe in the fact that there is no God but Allah and that Mohammad (PBUH) was his prophet? I mean it's not that I was told to believe by my parents. Of course they taught me about Islam, but do you think that this is the reason why I am a Muslim? There are a lot of people who were born into religious families and stopped being Muslims, especially youngsters who grew up in Europe or in the USA. But that is often because their parents never really taught them, neglected them or because they didn't upgrade themselves on their own in terms of religious studies.

Do you ever question faith and religion in general? And if you did, would you honestly say so? Or do you feel it's a sin to question faith?

Man, what is this, a police interrogation?
But to answear your first question here, I had no reason so far to doubt or question faith and religion.

Yi, if you are in any way interested in why Muslims think the way they do, please make sure to read the biography of Mohammad (PBUH) by Essad Bey (there is a German and an English version). It is very well written, like a mixture of a novel and a specialised book.
All the non-Muslims whom I have lended it to, finished reading the 400 pages in between two days and a week, telling me they couldn't stop reading it as it is one of the most interesting stories they had ever read. One guy got interested so much that he started reading the Qur'an etc and eventually turned Muslim last year. He wouldn't have done so if he didn't believe it was right. I'm not saying you're going to turn Muslim after reading this book, but this story about the poor shepherd who was hunted by his own people, who had to flee from Mecca and who would come back as the ruler over the whole Middle East is an interesting story to read for non-Muslims and even to people with no interest in religions at all.

Oh, by the way... you knew that Hitler got inspired a lot by Mohammed? During his time in prison, he would read about him. I mean not in terms of starting a holocaust like Hitler did, but in terms of how to rise to power. LOL, but that's ajust a bit of Hitler trivia...

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 21 Sep 2005, 19:55

Yes but I didnt say that.

IMO the Romans really wanted to get rid of Jesus for their own ends, I dont believe the stuff in POTC (the Jews bully Pontius Pilate into crucifying him when he's already suffered etc, and this "He gave himself up to please the Jews..")

Mordib · Post by **Mordib** » 21 Sep 2005, 20:03

wow it never ceases to amaze me how nice and civilised people can discuss serious issues on this forum, nice one guys

the thing you have to rememeber is that this debate has been going on in the world for a long time and the reason its never been concluded is that both sides believe their case is valid whilst at the same time dont trust/believe the other stand point. what is proof in many peoples eyes is totally flawed as proof in other peoples eyes.

I am not religeous though i have studied various religeons in quite some detail and have so far not found anything to convince me that god exists in any form. I havent however read the book LD mentions but i now certainly plan to

Now as we all know religeon can be the cause of some terrible things (wars etc) but it can also be a great thing, it gives meaning to millions of peopple who otherwise wouldnt really have much meaning to live their lives by. It can bring hope and happiness where previously there was none, t also results in many amazing deeds of goodness throughout the world and history in general.

as such i feel its cool for people to have faith, as long as they dont push it down my throat i will keep my views and logic to myself as well, live and let live and all that. I have been involved in informal think tanks that have discussed what the world would be like if all religeon was removed and the conclusions have always been that the human race as we know it simply wouldnt function at any predictable level if there was no religeon.

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 21 Sep 2005, 20:39

thelostdragon wrote:
Yi-Long wrote:How is prophet Muhammed proof of the existence of (a) God? Cause HE says so?
Nope, because this simple shepherd and business man from the desert (who was an analphabet on top of that) was suddenly able to compete with the best poets in Mekka. When people praised him for "his" uncomparable words, he would tell them that they are Allah's words and up until today, not even the greatest poets have succeeded in writing something even similar to a scratch of the style of the Qur'an. Being acknowledged by people like Goethe or Schiller as the highest acknowledgement in world's literature, it is hard for me to believe that a simple Arab man who was born in the desert made these words up, especially in a time where chaos reigned the Arab world.

I have no clue on how such a thing could happen. I didnt even know this so thanks for informing me. I'll try to find some info on this so I can read up.

LD: Did you grow up in a very religious family, or did you become religious by yourself? I ask cause it seems when you grow up believing in something, it's very hard to suddenly realize that everything you believed in, MIGHT not be real, or truth.
OMG, I knew this was coming, lol! As soon as one says he's religious, he's gonna meet people who tell him he was born into a religious family and doesn't really believe in his God and is only afraid to say so, because if he does his people won't accept him anymore etc etc! You can say it directly or carefully with nice words... it leads up to that assumption. Do I have to justify myself that I believe in the fact that there is no God but Allah and that Mohammad (PBUH) was his prophet? I mean it's not that I was told to believe by my parents. Of course they taught me about Islam, but do you think that this is the reason why I am a Muslim? There are a lot of people who were born into religious families and stopped being Muslims, especially youngsters who grew up in Europe or in the USA. But that is often because their parents never really taught them, neglected them or because they didn't upgrade themselves on their own in terms of religious studies.

Well, the reason I ask is because of this dead friend of mine, and her religious family. I know she grew up and it must have been very hard for her if she hadn't been religious as her parents were, so I kinda think she didnt really have an option to be religious or not (although I'm sure she didnt realize this situation). So that's why I asked.

Do you ever question faith and religion in general? And if you did, would you honestly say so? Or do you feel it's a sin to question faith?
Man, what is this, a police interrogation?
But to answear your first question here, I had no reason so far to doubt or question faith and religion.

Why don't you have any reason to doubt or question? Surely logical thinking can sometimes cross your mind about these matters? It's normal to doubt stuff, isnt it?

Yi, if you are in any way interested in why Muslims think the way they do, please make sure to read the biography of Mohammad (PBUH) by Essad Bey (there is a German and an English version). It is very well written, like a mixture of a novel and a specialised book.
All the non-Muslims whom I have lended it to, finished reading the 400 pages in between two days and a week, telling me they couldn't stop reading it as it is one of the most interesting stories they had ever read. One guy got interested so much that he started reading the Qur'an etc and eventually turned Muslim last year. He wouldn't have done so if he didn't believe it was right. I'm not saying you're going to turn Muslim after reading this book, but this story about the poor shepherd who was hunted by his own people, who had to flee from Mecca and who would come back as the ruler over the whole Middle East is an interesting story to read for non-Muslims and even to people with no interest in religions at all.

Ow, it's not specifically Muslims or Christians etc that interest me, but just this blind faith and religion people have...
This funeral, and this priest taking advantage of the situation to get more 'sinners' to his church to save himself when there's a 26 year old girl who has just died, just rubbed me the wrong way. And her family swallowing all this and talking about a masterplan of God and we should be gratefull etc etc... How can you not question the sanity of these people!?

Don't get me wrong. These are VERY VERY nice, loving people... and I have ALOT of respect for them, as people .... and I truly believe that faith and religion has helped them be good people. They have a good, solid, strong, sweet family with strong family-values. The girl that died had a heart of gold, truly on of the sweetest girls I've ever been fortunate enough to have met.

However, I don't think there IS a God, and I think all these priests are all a scamm. Either they're nuts, or they're taking advantage of good people.
Ofcourse, not every priest or religious person is the same, and they all seem to read the holy books in their own ways that suit them best. However, this guy was clearly a fanatic, calling the non-believers sinners and that we would go to hell etc. I don't really care for a guy in a dress verbally attacking and threatening me with BS.

Oh, by the way... you knew that Hitler got inspired a lot by Mohammed? During his time in prison, he would read about him. I mean not in terms of starting a holocaust like Hitler did, but in terms of how to rise to power. LOL, but that's ajust a bit of Hitler trivia...

Hitler ain't really the best example you wanna show when you're trying to get people to understand Islam

Anyway, you know I don't mind people being religious, and I'm all for freedom of religion etc etc. However, obviously, in all religions, there are people abusing the faith of fellow believers for their own good, and there are people who are just insane, and can't think logically and humane anymore when it comes to stuff like gay-marriage & abortion etc... so that really is my problem with religion, and religious people just swallowing everything these guys say without questioning what he's saying, with their own mind.

As I've explained before, religion can often be a good thing (even though I don't believe they're right when they believe in a God), as it makes them live a decent good life with peace in their heart. However, I take offence at those abusing 'faith' and I take offence at people who stopped opening their mind, and take a 'holy' book as the all-and-all truth.

About the miracles and about a pessant becoming a great poet: I honestly have no idea how that happens. However, just because he says it comes from God, doesn't mean I have to believe that. Maybe HE believed it, probably did... but Maradonna also claimed it was the Hand of God when he screwed England in the world cup... so...
There are many miracles in this world where people didnt credit God for it... and what if they did? Would it have been 'God's' doing? What if they didn't? Would it have been 'luck' ?

Anyway, too many insecurities involving religion, so there will never be a definite answer. For me, I know I'll never be religious unless I get a personal visit from God or Allah or a few of his angels, granding me superiour power, knowledge or ehm... rid me of my belly-aches ...whatever.

Anyway, just so you know, not trying to ridicule anyone's faith or religion or God or whatever. I personally don't believe in it, but everyone makes that own choice for themselfs and as long as they won't threaten me with an 'eternity in hell' after death, or take advantage of a young girl's death to get more people to church, then they can do what they gotta do...

Also not meant to 'interrogate' you. I was just asking these questions cause I'm both interested, curious as well as sceptic about this topic, and since you have a different viewpoint as I have, ofcourse I'm gonna have a few questions. No need to be surprised, and no need to go all defensive

If it were any other topic you know I would have asked questions as well, so didnt really feel I should now shy away from it, just because it's a touchy subject for some...

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 21 Sep 2005, 22:25

Unrealnils wrote:Who creadted the donner kebeb ???/ know theres a bloke (or lady) i'd shake the hand of................

Richard, I think.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 21 Sep 2005, 22:45

thelostdragon wrote: Nope, because this simple shepherd and business man from the desert (who was an analphabet on top of that) was suddenly able to compete with the best poets in Mekka. When people praised him for "his" uncomparable words, he would tell them that they are Allah's words and up until today, not even the greatest poets have succeeded in writing something even similar to a scratch of the style of the Qur'an. Being acknowledged by people like Goethe or Schiller as the highest acknowledgement in world's literature, it is hard for me to believe that a simple Arab man who was born in the desert made these words up, especially in a time where chaos reigned the Arab world.

Could he not have been speaking metaphorically? As in "My words were inspired by my faith in God" rather than any kind of literal communication? I mean if being a writing prodigy is all it takes then maybe Quentin Tarantino is a prophet? Where else did he get that sharp, witty dialogue from? And why Mohammed? Why not you or me -- or Romero even?? If all it takes is for someone to say "Hey, I'm a prophet" and convince people to write about the fact then I can't say this particular relgiious belief is based on anything tangible at all.

There are a lot of people who were born into religious families and stopped being Muslims, especially youngsters who grew up in Europe or in the USA. But that is often because their parents never really taught them, neglected them or because they didn't upgrade themselves on their own in terms of religious studies.

That sounds a bit like you're blaming Muslims who lapse or suggesting it must be some stark reason (like neglect) for such a thing to happen. Maybe they just grew up and realised it was fairytale?

But to answear your first question here, I had no reason so far to doubt or question faith and religion.

The reason you get asked (or interegated) is because you're the most strongly religious person here and we want to know what makes you tick. It's not intended to be offensive, just argumentative. If someone else here had the same beliefs as you, we could debate with them also. As for the question at hand... I find it amazing that nothing in your life has made you question your religion. You must be charmed. What if - God forbid - your family was killed in a car crash? Would you accept that as fate and be able to justify the loss by Islam? (That basically extends to a personal level the point Yi-Long was aiming toward). Personally I've cursed God so often that when I finally get up there (if??) there's gonna be a Royal Rumble. The Angels are selling tickets.

Oh, by the way... you knew that Hitler got inspired a lot by Mohammed?

Now there's an edorsement!!

I mean not in terms of starting a holocaust like Hitler did, but in terms of how to rise to power.

Who's to say his readings didn't influence both??

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 22 Sep 2005, 00:08

Markgway wrote:Could he not have been speaking metaphorically? As in "My words were inspired by my faith in God" rather than any kind of literal communication? I mean if being a writing prodigy is all it takes then maybe Quentin Tarantino is a prophet? Where else did he get that sharp, witty dialogue from? And why Mohammed? Why not you or me -- or Romero even?? If all it takes is for someone to say "Hey, I'm a prophet" and convince people to write about the fact then I can't say this particular relgiious belief is based on anything tangible at all.

Hmmm... I've seen a lot of Tarantino-inspired dialogue scenes that actually work. Take the dialogues written by Troy Duffy for his "The Boondock Slaints". Sounds quite similar and when you listen to the commentary, you will hear him say whom he got inspired by.

I am talking about the Qur'an as it is, in Arabic not in any form of translation. The true, high, skil and artful position of it can be fully understood when knowing the Arabic language. Goethe, rulers of nations and a lot of other people who are interested in the art of literature have been learning Arabic for years in order to be able to recognise the beauty and the uniquenes of the literary style of the Qur'an. I'm not talking about the religious meanings here.

And of course it took Mohammed a lot more to make people believe he is the prophet. That's why I said earlier I wouldn't be giving religious lessons here, because it takes a loooot of writing . (Hence I recommended the book). If people ask such questions and expect short answears, it is only natural, that such a conversation will lead to nowhere, because it is not a topic for short answears and I'm not going to write a book here.

What I can say is that the prophet didn't just say "Hey! I'm a prophet, follow me...!" In order to create a following of true believers, to create an Islamic nation (with the first laws and rights for humans, animals and plants in the Arab world) it took him about two decades since he got the first message by Gabriel, God's angel. He also had followers who didn't really believe in him as Allah's prophet, but they took advantage of being on his side when he started to become a real danger for the Quraish in Mecca (before Mohammed, the noblest and most respectable clan in the Arab world).

After successfully conquering his city of birth, Mecca, Mohammed returned to Medinah, where he had fled to from Mecca (as he had promised the tribe there to stay with them), but at the same time, he created the first organised nation in the Arab world. This nation had laws and a social system, which slowly got rid of poverty and most importantly rid of slavery.The piles of fighting Arabs became an organised Army. Jews and Christians who didn't want to take the Islamic religion had to be tolerated. Their churches and synagogues had to stay unharmed and anybody who wouldn't act according to that law would receive severe punishment.
Christians and Jews had to pay special kind of taxes in order to live in the Islamic nation, the Nation of Allah, but they didn't have to go into battle with the Muslims (which was not a rarity back then) and they were defended against any kind of enemy by the Muslims as well.

The list of social laws in Islam goes on and on and can you tell me where at that time you had such a strong, theocratic and democratic nation?

As I said, it takes a lot more of information to be written down by me if you wanna learn more about Islam at B'n'B, so you better get that book by Essad Bey.

That sounds a bit like you're blaming Muslims who lapse or suggesting it must be some stark reason (like neglect) for such a thing to happen. Maybe they just grew up and realised it was fairytale?

Ask them if they believe that there is Allah. I assure you, most of them will give you a yes. But are they living according to his laws...? That's a different matter. They don't think Islam is a fairytale. Especially, because most of Islam is historically documented. Mohammed didn't come along with a miracle, like the other prophets (splitting the sea etc). His miracle is the Qur'an and he is the last prophet (died on June 8th 632).

After his death, Abu Bakr (the closest follower of the prophet) took the leadership of the nation. On the first day after the death of the prophet he became the first caliph, which means the representative or substitute of the prophet.

25 years after the death of the prophet, Islam conquered Syria, Egypt, Northern Africa, Iran and Mesopotamia. They all became part of the Islamic nation.
100 years after the death of the prophet, Islam covered a third of the old world.
After 500 years, Islam reigned over Byzantium, India and Russia. It reached the gates of Vienna. And even today it hasn't stopped to get new groups of people following it.

It's clear that the merchant from Mecca (Mohammed) has reached his goal. What I want to say is that Islam's success is all documented historically.

The mentioned invasions were not always successful without bloodshed. But only the armies were fought that stood in the way of Allah's word. Had Allah's army behaved like the troops of the crusades, there surely wouldn't be as much decent and faithful Muslims nowadays in the countries mentioned above.

The reason you get asked (or interegated) is because you're the most strongly religious person here and we want to know what makes you tick.

I'm the only one? Slasher, appear for back-up now, he he he!
What makes me tick, huh? I mean I'm not some kind of machine that has to be studied in order to understand. I'm a logically thinking human being.

It's not intended to be offensive, just argumentative.

You know, as a Muslim living with non-Muslim's everyday here in Germany, I know where such conversations can easily lead to, hence I'm trying to prevent it a bit. Maybe I got a bit prejudiced due to my experiences I had with conversations over here and it's just too tiresome to explain the same stuff over and over again. Although I keep recommending books as a solution, I always get re-drawn into these conversations again(as you can see here).

I find it amazing that nothing in your life has made you question your religion. You must be charmed.

Is this honesty, or just pure irony? If you were being honest with your statement, I'm sorry. You know, I'm not a rare case. There are a lot more people who never had a reason to question their religion.

What if - God forbid - your family was killed in a car crash? Would you accept that as fate and be able to justify the loss by Islam? (That basically extends to a personal level the point Yi-Long was aiming toward).

It's hard to answer such a question, because you can't imagine yourself into such a situation well enough. I have lost family members who lived in Palestine (3 cousins) and Iraq (my uncle and his whole family). Of course I was shattered and get sad and really mad at certain people by just writing this, but why question my religion? Islam is more of a political thing. A way of life we adapt to. I know Allah is there, but he is not responsible for the stuff that happen in life. It's as if he started a Sim City town, built it and pressed the "Start Time"-button, leans back and when it's over, he becomes the judge.

And who says he isn't already stopping stuff? Who knows, maybe the two A-Bombs on Japan were nothing compared to what he successfully stopped. Maybe the kid that gets ran over would have become a second Hitler or so? But that's just my own philosophy here, not Islam's.

As for the judge part... Allah never punishes twice, which means that those who receive their punishment according to Allah's laws, will not get punished in the after-life. As there is no truly Islamic nation these days, there is no punishment imposed by an executive of the substitutor of the prophet. (A bit of trivia again, not meaning to go off-topic.)

I mean not in terms of starting a holocaust like Hitler did, but in terms of how to rise to power.
Who's to say his readings didn't influence both??

Did you read about Mohammed causing or being responsible for a Holocaust anywhere?

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 22 Sep 2005, 01:41

thelostdragon wrote:Hmmm... I've seen a lot of Tarantino-inspired dialogue scenes that actually work. Take the dialogues written by Troy Duffy for his "The Boondock Slaints". Sounds quite similar and when you listen to the commentary, you will hear him say whom he got inspired by.

On a side note: there's a feature-length documentary about the making of that film that came out recently.

I am talking about the Qur'an as it is, in Arabic not in any form of translation. The true, high, skil and artful position of it can be fully understood when knowing the Arabic language.

Obviously not speaking Arabic I'll have to take your word for that, but I see no reason not to believe this guy was a top writer. I'm not disputing that, merely its significance. Remember the old saying? "Print the legend" Sounds better to make this man a prophet of Allah than just someone who writes nice. and since it all happened a loooong time ago who can say how these stories came about? Same with Jesus and co. It's too convient for every religion to have its easily identifiable and definable heroes and villains.

That's why I said earlier I wouldn't be giving religious lessons here, because it takes a loooot of writing . (Hence I recommended the book). If people ask such questions and expect short answears, it is only natural, that such a conversation will lead to nowhere, because it is not a topic for short answears and I'm not going to write a book here.

That's fair. Clearly it's taken you a long time to gain the knowledge you have of your subject and can't be expected to relate it in a few sentences. Even though you've tried awfully hard... Some questions pop into my mind. 1. Is the Islam of today the same as it was practiced two thousand years ago - ie. no evolution? Isn't evolution a necessity? 2. How can it be proved that these events are true? Could these events not be fictionalised - a work designed to tell a story that promotes certain spiritual beliefs?

Ask them if they believe that there is Allah. I assure you, most of them will give you a yes. But are they living according to his laws...?

But if these lapsed Muslims are as ill-educated in Islam as you suggest is their belief in Allah based on anything other than ignorance? Yours is based on collected knowledge. Thus is their belief truly worth anything if it's unfounded?

I'm the only one? Slasher, appear for back-up now, he he he!

Haven't seen him around for ages....

What makes me tick, huh? I mean I'm not some kind of machine that has to be studied in order to understand. I'm a logically thinking human being.

It's a figure of speech. Sorry if you didn't understand. It roughly means 'learning how someone thinks'.

You know, as a Muslim living with non-Muslim's everyday here in Germany, I know where such conversations can easily lead to, hence I'm trying to prevent it a bit. Maybe I got a bit prejudiced due to my experiences I had with conversations over here and it's just too tiresome to explain the same stuff over and over again. Although I keep recommending books as a solution, I always get re-drawn into these conversations again(as you can see here).

I understand. I can imagine you can asked this stuff A LOT. I suppose you're considered an ambassador for Islam? Mostly I think people are genuinely interested in reasonable debate. If someone is intentionally offensive just tell them where to get off. I try not to be - but I guess it's tricky wording my posts when I'm so vehemently oppossed to all religion. Am I doing OK?

I got an ear-bashing for my Catholic friend for asking similar questions (though I was a touch condescending, perhaps?

) I think religion is one of these topics that you can't relate to someone else. You can explain and impart knowledge, but it never changes anyone's mind.

Is this honesty, or just pure irony? If you were being honest with your statement, I'm sorry. You know, I'm not a rare case. There are a lot more people who never had a reason to question their religion.

Really? That actually does surprise me.

It's hard to answer such a question, because you can't imagine yourself into such a situation well enough.

Yeah, it was more hypothetical than anything else...

Islam is more of a political thing. A way of life we adapt to. I know Allah is there, but he is not responsible for the stuff that happen in life. It's as if he started a Sim City town, built it and pressed the "Start Time"-button, leans back and when it's over, he becomes the judge.

That makes sense. Not so far off my own vague thinking on the matter. It's just the method of play that differs then...? We all say things like 'I hate God' or 'Thank God' but really our lives are our own to live or to destroy as we please. Even though at our worst it sometimes seems otherwise... I do think everyone goes through these stages at some point. To question your religion is not to turn against it. On a side note: I honesty believe that those who strongly oppose Islam don't actually oppose the religion itself (at least in the main) but rather the (Middle Eastern) culture that surrounds it. (I'm sure as a westerner having visited the Middle East you know what I mean). I've always said that most people aren't racists, they're culturalists.

And who says he isn't already stopping stuff? Who knows, maybe the two A-Bombs on Japan were nothing compared to what he successfully stopped. Maybe the kid that gets ran over would have become a second Hitler or so? But that's just my own philosophy here, not Islam's.

Yeah, I don't know.......... and I don't pretend to. Nobody does. We can only guess and suggest.

As there is no truly Islamic nation these days, there is no punishment imposed by an executive of the substitutor of the prophet.

If there was a TRUE by-the-book Islamic nation would you live there? I empahsis book so as not to get confused with middle eastern culture which isn't the same as religion.

Did you read about Mohammed causing or being responsible for a Holocaust anywhere?

No, not that anyone would dare!! My point was if you say Hitler was influenced in one regard, isn't it possible he was also influenced in a negative light by the same text/source?

romerojpg · Post by **romerojpg** » 22 Sep 2005, 18:12

and off this topic I go

too much reading.

and hey people aquire magical verbal and written skills all the time, dumb people who never even spoke before or had seen a book have suddently come to life and been able to write loads of stuff and speak many languages, that does not prove god helped at all. But like everything people lie and exadurate for their own good, so it may all be made up anyway no one can prove any of that stuff is real or even happened, history is changed by religious people all the time for their own good.

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 24 Sep 2005, 01:55

Markgway wrote:On a side note: there's a feature-length documentary about the making of that film that came out recently.

Yeah, isn't it about Troy Duffy and how he got ripped off my Miramax?

I am talking about the Qur'an as it is, in Arabic not in any form of translation. The true, high, skil and artful position of it can be fully understood when knowing the Arabic language.

Obviously not speaking Arabic I'll have to take your word for that, but I see no reason not to believe this guy was a top writer.

The thing is he wasn't even a writer. He was an analphabet and he memorised Allah's words. After Mohammed's death, people feared that the words of Allah might be lost and hence Abu Bakr ordered Mohammed's clostst companions, the Imams, those who would memorise the words from Mohammed's mouth, to write them down.

Remember the old saying? "Print the legend" Sounds better to make this man a prophet of Allah than just someone who writes nice.

It's not like people created his story driven by the need of a hero or so. The history of the Islamic empire can be historically tracked back to Mohammed. The first university in the whole world, Al-Azhar in Cairo, still exists today and in it you will find all the thousands of historical documents and books, hand-written and categorised.

Mohammed's own sayings, called Hadiths which are not to mix-up with the words of Allah, were written down by close friends of his and they are still available nowadays. (Some of these hadiths are legislating just as the word of Allah.)

You should know that after America was discovered the Islamic Empire had the first commercial crisis ever and depression was big. You know, every single good and merchandise that went from East to West had to pass the Islamic Empire. Now that America was found, the economic focus was on the new continent. People in the huge Islamic world slowly stopped having interest in science and education. This was when the libraries stopped updating and re-issuing their books. In al-Azhar university, they are currently working on a project to re-master (and digitally enhance for an anamorphic widescreen transfer, he he he) very old writings of over 1000 years of age, which contain the memories people had of the prophet.

1. Is the Islam of today the same as it was practiced two thousand years ago - ie. no evolution? Isn't evolution a necessity?

Of course evolution is a necessity. Do you believe that in the over 1200 years of the Islamic Empire, the world looked like in the days of the prophet? Islam is sympathetic to development of science, education and technology. A well known saying of the prophet is, "Seek science, even if you are to travel to China." This saying was was esteemed highly in the world of Islam. Every teaching and development of science was qualified to be tolerated and was tolerated. There were only a few exceptions to this rule. Only the loose communist flows, half religious and half socialist movements, which always existed in the Orient were fought with a rigorous tenacity.

Anyways, in the heyday of its development, Islam created a completely new idea, which would again create a new era. This idea is called universal education. As I mentioned above, the first university in the world was establishd in Cairo. The first academy in which all different kinds of sciences were taught as equivalent subjects. It still functions as an academy for Islamic education. Maths, poetry, philology, logic, jurisprudence and all the philosophical and natural sciences were not only taught in the Islamic universities, were attended to at the Khalif's court and in the palaces of the rich people, but also cultured.

Islam included a fullness of different races and people. Every folk contributed to the all-embracing culture of Islam. Take Iran for example. The imaginative, mystically blurred and poetic character of the Persians were a welcomed endorsement to the logically math-minds of the old Arabs. Greeks, Jews, Beduins, Egyptians and even the wild Berbers added to the huge construction of the Islamic culture. It's hard to make out what in this culture leads back to Persian, Arab or Greek origin.

I mean in a time when Europe remained in a highly primitive form of existence, the empire of the Khalif endued with an enormous knowledge (for old standards). This knowledge was saved in books. Books about all fields of knowledge, like history, medicin, astronomy, geography, philosophy maths, etc etc. appeared galorely. The first of these books are supposed to have been released in the beginning of the 8th century. These were translations of Greek writers like Aristoteles, Plutarch, Euklid, Galen, Hypsikeles, Theodorus and Haeron from Alexandira and many more Greek books. The spirit of these books was creatively continued by Islam.
India on its own contributed a lot as well. The Arab numbers origin from India (which are now used internationally). The development of the Islamic architecture was the reason for discovering trigonometry which also origins from India. Schoolbooks about geometry, planimetry and algebra were generally spread.

The ban of painting humans and animals directed the creative power to architecture. Inspired by the old roman-greek architecture, Muslims developed fabulous constructions, probably some of the most beautiful architectural monuments on earth (in my opinion).

The Taj-Mahal in India:

CLICK HERE for an awesome HUGE picture of the Taj-Mahal.

The blue mosque in Turkey. At its time it was the peak of architecture. It was built between 1609 and 1616. The main turret has a diameter of 23,5 meters and a height of 43 meters. (source: Wikipedia)

Mosques were even built by the Chinese after Islam reached the West of China in the 7th century. Never saw a Chinese mosque until I did some research tonight, lol. Quite cool.

Well, so what can I say in terms of evolution? I am sure that if the Islamic Empire wasn't corrupted and destroyed, evolution and development would still be going on there.

2. How can it be proved that these events are true? Could these events not be fictionalised - a work designed to tell a story that promotes certain spiritual beliefs?

How would the person have benefitted from doing this? I mean it took Islam more than a human being's lifetime to reach what it has been reaching.

But if these lapsed Muslims are as ill-educated in Islam as you suggest is their belief in Allah based on anything other than ignorance? Yours is based on collected knowledge. Thus is their belief truly worth anything if it's unfounded?

Well, that's between them and Allah. I can't look into their heads and it's for Allah to decide whether their belief is worth anything or not.

It's a figure of speech. Sorry if you didn't understand. It roughly means 'learning how someone thinks'.

I know, I was just confused why you used it on me instead of writing 'so I learn how you think' you mention above. It is nicer than that figure of speech, isn't it?
Well, doesn't matter, I'm kinda fine with it.

I think religion is one of these topics that you can't relate to someone else. You can explain and impart knowledge, but it never changes anyone's mind.

Not true. As an example... After September 11th, the rate of people who are yearly converting to the religion of Islam raised to 150% and in France, every year 40.000 people convert to Islam. Worldwide, millions of people have been converting to Islam every year. Why? Because Islam changed their minds.

Is this honesty, or just pure irony? If you were being honest with your statement, I'm sorry. You know, I'm not a rare case. There are a lot more people who never had a reason to question their religion.

Really? That actually does surprise me.

It's hard to answer such a question, because you can't imagine yourself into such a situation well enough.

Yeah, it was more hypothetical than anything else...

To question your religion is not to turn against it.

Yeah, but it can lead to that if one doesn't start looking for answers.

On a side note: I honesty believe that those who strongly oppose Islam don't actually oppose the religion itself (at least in the main) but rather the (Middle Eastern) culture that surrounds it. (I'm sure as a westerner having visited the Middle East you know what I mean).

Absolutely. Most people I have encountered strongly opposing Islam, turned out not to have the slightest clue about Islam apart from the scarf on the women's heads and the Jihad (which is so often wrongly translated as Holy War). In a forum of a German news channel, I recently came across a guy who said that he was afraid of youngsters in Germany who could start to believe that becoming Muslim is a new cool trend and that Nazis could exploit that in order to justify their hatred against Jews, Americans and capitalists... which could soon mean good bye to Europe, democracy culture and science.
I was like, "Errrrr...!" and didn't even bother to post anything slightly similar to what I wrote in my first post of this thread.

If there was a TRUE by-the-book Islamic nation would you live there?

Oh yes, indeed. Except for maybe if I'd be a representative for that country in Europe or so, like an ambassador or so.
Maybe it would be hard for me and other people of my generation to leave the place where they grew up in, but I'd make sure that the next generation, my kids would grow up in that STRAIGHT-TO-THE-BOOK Islamic nation, like it existed until 1924.

No, not that anyone would dare!! My point was if you say Hitler was influenced in one regard, isn't it possible he was also influenced in a negative light by the same text/source?

How? I mean, ok, the human brain is a miracle in itself and you could be negatively influenced by anything. And I wouldn't go that far to say that Hitler had common sense, but I can't see how the life of the prophet could inspire someone to cause a holocaust.

WOOOOW!!! Man, I'm never going to type the following again,

I'm not going to give religion lessons here...

as you can see where this leads to.

Mordib · Post by **Mordib** » 24 Sep 2005, 07:42

wowsers... interesting read dude

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 24 Sep 2005, 14:27

thelostdragon wrote:Yeah, isn't it about Troy Duffy and how he got ripped off my Miramax?

I believe so. I saw a clip on TV. Duffy came off as an arrogant arse, but then... it IS Miramxe we're talking about!! :twisted:

It's not like people created his story driven by the need of a hero or so. The history of the Islamic empire can be historically tracked back to Mohammed. The first university in the whole world, Al-Azhar in Cairo, still exists today and in it you will find all the thousands of historical documents and books, hand-written and categorised.

I guess what I'm getting at is that because something is printed/ documented doesn't make it true. History over the last 100 years has changed because we can see for ourselves what happens in the world by film and picture. This has changed how we perceive war. But a book written 2,000 has no visual proof to back it up. That's not to say a lack of visual proof makes it UNtrue, just that it allows for a wider ambiguity as to the genuiness of the source. Is a lie any less of a lie because it's been perpetrated for twenty centuries? The same thing can be said of any religion, of course, not just Islam. As for needing "a hero". Everyone needs a hero in some form. A leader if you will. If the documentation you speak of labelled Mohammad as a writer of poetry would his words carry the same weight? But to say he was someone who couldn't write, but suddenly became endowed with an almost supernatural gift of language... well, that's much more impressive a notion to pass onto subsequent generations. A film has its director, a book its author, a religion its figurehead (or prophet).

As I mentioned above, the first university in the world was establishd in Cairo. The first academy in which all different kinds of sciences were taught as equivalent subjects. It still functions as an academy for Islamic education. Maths, poetry, philology, logic, jurisprudence and all the philosophical and natural sciences were not only taught in the Islamic universities, were attended to at the Khalif's court and in the palaces of the rich people, but also cultured.

Interesting... Islam/Arabic culture made such an indelible impression on the world in terms of education and science, yet for the last 500(?) years has been stuck. Why do you think that is? I understand about the rise of American dominance; but you look at the Middle East and it's like nothing has changed. People still act, talk and dress as they did when King Richard was in power. From what you're saying the impression I get is that islam encourages modernisation and personal growth, yet it hasn't happened. Is this another case of culture interfering with religion?

I know, I was just confused why you used it on me instead of writing 'so I learn how you think' you mention above. It is nicer than that figure of speech, isn't it? Well, doesn't matter, I'm kinda fine with it.

OK. I think maybe it sounds worse if you're not used to it. I didn't mean any disrespect.

Not true. As an example... After September 11th, the rate of people who are yearly converting to the religion of Islam raised to 150% and in France, every year 40.000 people convert to Islam. Worldwide, millions of people have been converting to Islam every year. Why? Because Islam changed their minds.

OK. But I won't. Just in case you were still wondering.....

Absolutely. Most people I have encountered strongly opposing Islam, turned out not to have the slightest clue about Islam apart from the scarf on the women's heads and the Jihad (which is so often wrongly translated as Holy War).

Hmm... that's what I thought. People can't hate Islam because they don't even know it. They hate the culture it seemingly has produced. All I know about Islam - which you could fit on the back of a postage stamp - is through you're posts here. And we're all grateful I'm sure for your taking the time to bother. I myself despise the headscarfs and body coverings, the second class treatment of women and homosexuals; but as you say these are cultural, not religious. Unless moderate, intelligent Muslims educate people (including 'their' own) this misconception will stand and cause unecessary division. There's no reason why Muslims, Jews, Catholics and Protestants, et al, can't live in harmony, along with us decadent, spiritualess heathens.

In a forum of a German news channel, I recently came across a guy who said that he was afraid of youngsters in Germany who could start to believe that becoming Muslim is a new cool trend and that Nazis could exploit that in order to justify their hatred against Jews, Americans and capitalists... which could soon mean good bye to Europe, democracy culture and science.

Words born out of ignorance, but not unfathomable when you have virtualy nothing to combat those viewpoints with. Hardly anyone other than Muslims are going to read religious text, so how else does the proper message of your religion get across? The little I know now would be less without you. You might say it's not every Muslims job to teach the world. True, but self-appointed leaders must take responsibility for the message that does get 'out there' and when misconceptions are held correct them, rather than ignore them. I wonder if, however, the 'culture' we speak of isn't so ingrained in today's Islamic teaching that the original spiritual message has become somewhat blurred or lost?

Oh yes, indeed. Except for maybe if I'd be a representative for that country in Europe or so, like an ambassador or so.
Maybe it would be hard for me and other people of my generation to leave the place where they grew up in, but I'd make sure that the next generation, my kids would grow up in that STRAIGHT-TO-THE-BOOK Islamic nation, like it existed until 1924.

No one could ever accuse you of being a hypocrite. And besides... you could always visit Germany on holiday.

but I can't see how the life of the prophet could inspire someone to cause a holocaust.

...Anymore than the Quoran (am I spelling this right?) could cause a man to become a terrorist, right? As you say the human brain is a complex creature and takes what it wants from its source. Mohammad (I'm sure) doesn't write "cause a holocaust" but that maybe what Hitler saw in his words? The point I'm making is we all see different things. What's true for you (or me) may not be true for a sociopath like Hitler.

P.S. The Taj Mahal is a cool building. 8)

Bullets 'n' Babes

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