BNP on BBC's Question Time

[romerojpg]

The English should reclaim what's theirs.

Well that wont happen with people like Brad in the UK.

[grim_tales]

Because of the association of the symbol, I would be scared to dress like that going out normally.

[bradavon]

I'd like to think I'm proud to be English/British (certainly not ashamed as Mark said), but while I'd wear an England footy shirt I'd never wear a Union Jack/England flag T-shirt, conversely.

Me either. I'm patriotic but have always thought patriotism (and for that matter religion) should be an inward thing and doesn't require you to wear a big sign saying "I'm English/Scottish/Whatever".

Being overly patriotic leads to America, who're so patriotic it can make them blind.

The parties as a whole lean to the left.
Lib Dems>Labour>Tories
But I think you'll find that Britain has no substancial political right.
Unless you count the BNP.

Sure aspects of the Tories are left but I wouldn't say they're a left party. That was really my main point. Could this be, that the majority of people now lean to the left? I don't know.

So far. It could get worse.

I doubt to the extent it will make a real difference.

Sexuality, censorship, healthcare, bloodsports, etc.

Are you saying you're liberal on those? I'm just wondering.

I thought you were a Lib Dem voter. My mistake.

I've voted for them in the past but I thought your point was, you don't only support one party period.

You just know that the BNP isn't going to welcome gays with open arms. I think it was a fairly safe bet the reaction that question would get.

For sure but it undermines their position, if they hate everything. Instead of focusing.

Don't agree with the man's politics... but he's a brilliant debater. He would've torn Griffin to shreds.

He's always just come across as a bully to me. Like Paxman for example.

Britain isn't a world's worst candidate, but compared to what it was... Britain used to be one of the great countries in the world.

I doubt it was really as rosey as many like to think.

Immigrants used to want to come here because it was great... now it's because they get free shit and the French are really mean.

Ask a North African if Britain is still great and compared to his homeland, he'll say Yes but I take your point.

Crime, education, and culture is at an all time low. Labour have dragged this country to its knees.

Culture? Our culture is a lot better than many European countries.

I presume you mean crime is an all time high. Is it really? It strikes me it's no better or worse than it's ever been.

Interesting perspective, but not one most non-English Brits would share I'm afraid.

Sadly I know and it's one thing I've always hated about this country. Not just Non-English Brits but pretty much everyone. How you think of yourself as: English, then British, then European. Is how the majority of Brits think of themselves. How people cannot think bigger than "England", "Scotland", "Wales" etc...

British people share more in common, than they don't. Fact! Obviously there are differences but we share more with mainland Europeans than many British people would like to admit.

The worse Britain gets the more likely nationalists are to use that as an excuse to seperate from 'the power' (Westminster). What London does makes everyone suffer.

London always makes the vast, vast majority of wealth for The United Kingdom. We'd all be very seriously worse off financially without it.

Can you imagine Scots allowing their flags to be hijacked by far-right groups. The English should reclaim what's theirs.

Exactly and why would no one mind wearing an English football shirt? For reasons Grim mentioned. Agreed, it's silly how people who want to wear them, don't feel they can. I'm surprised the SNP haven't stolen the Scottish flag.

I tend to think football shirts are a bit chavish myself. Unless you play there's really no need.

Me too. They're not fashionable in the slightest.

Well that wont happen with people like Brad in the UK.

That shows how much you know about me. Freedom of expression is of uttermost importance to me.

[bradavon]

Whilst many English people wouldn't like to wear English flag t-shirts etc.. They do wear Union Flag t-shirts. Which are supposed to be for all Brits. When in reality the Welsh, Scottish or obviously Northern Irish wouldn't be seen dead in them.

The Union flag means English to pretty much everyone, not because any English person ever itends it to but because the Welsh, Scottish or obviously Northern Irish feel too uncomfortable to wear it. There's an example of wear a Scott feels uncomfortable, do display he obviously is.

I find that whole thing so weird.

[Markgway]

Being overly patriotic leads to America, who're so patriotic it can make them blind.

It can be taken too far... but one thing you can say about people living in America is that they're all Americans first and foremost. Britain doesn't command that kind of respect. We're almost apologetic toward immigrants. Don't you change for us... we'll change for you. That's the wrong way round.

Sure aspects of the Tories are left but I wouldn't say they're a left party.

Neither would I... but they're more left than they were. The British left is more left than the American left.

Could this be, that the majority of people now lean to the left?

Yes, but I also think this comes from the political classes enforcing these shifts. Since the late 60s liberals have gradually gotten themselves into positions of power (MPs, councillors, judges, teachers) and turned Britain left from the inside. The public have gone along with it - maybe thru weakness or maybe thru lack of choice?

Are you saying you're liberal on those? I'm just wondering.

I'd say so... up to a point though. I don't believe in a complete no rules free for all.

I've voted for them in the past but I thought your point was, you don't only support one party period.

Yeah, I don't. I wrongly thought you did. My mistake.

For sure but it undermines their position, if they hate everything. Instead of focusing.

It does. But how much of a state is this country in that the BNP could even get its foot in the door?

He's always just come across as a bully to me. Like Paxman for example.

He can be, but I still think he would've formulated stronger arguments than any of the duds we got.

I doubt it was really as rosey as many like to think.

Not rosy, never rosy. But, on the whole, better.

Ask a North African if Britain is still great and compared to his homeland, he'll say Yes but I take your point.

Well, compared to Zimbabwe, Britain is fucking paradise... lol

Culture? Our culture is a lot better than many European countries.

What is British culture today? Whatever it is it plays subservient to immigrant cultures in a way that no other European country would tolerate. Can you imagine the French or the Germans saying let's not be too proud else we might upset foreigners?

I presume you mean crime is an all time high. Is it really? It strikes me it's no better or worse than it's ever been.

Depends on where you live with regards to personal experience... but I think one would have to have their head in the sand to not notice the dropping of standards and the heightened level of public fear. Seriously, mate, I'm a grown man, almost 6ft, and I don't like going out at night alone.

How people cannot think bigger than "England", "Scotland", "Wales" etc...

Britain is no longer a country to be proud of. That's the sad truth. So 'we' cling to our individual national identities. Yet, Scotland is a disgrace. Absolutely nothing to proud of up here. If Scotland gains independence I'm fucking off big time.

London always makes the vast, vast majority of wealth for The United Kingdom. We'd all be very seriously worse off financially without it.

London syphoned off the riches for itself. The rest of England suffers. Scotland at least has oil. Wales are fucked.

I'm surprised the SNP haven't stolen the Scottish flag.

Oh, they've tried. Believe me. Nationalist bastards.

Me too. They're not fashionable in the slightest.

Hooray! Something we agree on.

[saltysam]

I Wear my LFC shirt to the match,or sometimes amble around town in it.I Wouldn't say that was chavish behaviour if it is then at 45 i'm the oldest chav in the UK!!

[bradavon]

It can be taken too far... but one thing you can say about people living in America is that they're all Americans first and foremost.

Definitely, very much so but that is a lot in part to do with the brainwashing. Oops I mean how it's drilled into them from a young age. How each school kid must pledge an allegiance every bloody day at school. I'd be dead against that happening here. That's taking it too far!

IDon't you change for us... we'll change for you. That's the wrong way round.

I'd say we've got it wrong but so has America. It should be 50/50. We've definitely got it wrong though but likewise to force an immigrate to change too much, is equally wrong. They should be allowed to be proud to be a British-Iraqi for example. Something I bet most Americans would dislike.

Yes, but I also think this comes from the political classes enforcing these shifts. Since the late 60s liberals have gradually gotten themselves into positions of power (MPs, councillors, judges, teachers) and turned Britain left from the inside. The public have gone along with it - maybe thru weakness or maybe thru lack of choice?

You cannot blame the people in power for being in power, if no right wingers have the balls to take them on. As the BNP are trying.

Not rosy, never rosy. But, on the whole, better.

I disagree. Different but not better. We're now generally much more tolerant, it's not illegal to abort a child, homophobia is greatly reduced, racism is much, much less. All rife back in their day.

Funnily enough I had the exact same conversation with my sister's husband at the w/e. His views are identical to yours.

Can you imagine the French or the Germans saying let's not be too proud else we might upset foreigners?

France definitely not but Germany yes. It's only recent they've felt comfortable again to be proud of their country.

[grim_tales]

I agree with Brad, there has to be a balance somewhere maybe. They should keep some of their own culture (obviously) and ours - no need to be so stupidly British like those Goodness Gracious Me characters (a lady so determinedly English she's called Kapoor but insists its pronounced "Cooper")
Likewise what about those lazy people from UK who go to Spain/France or somewhere and can't be arsed speaking the language icon_suspect

[Markgway]

I Wear my LFC shirt to the match,or sometimes amble around town in it.I Wouldn't say that was chavish behaviour if it is then at 45 i'm the oldest chav in the UK!!

I'm saying nothing.....

[Markgway]

Definitely, very much so but that is a lot in part to do with the brainwashing. Oops I mean how it's drilled into them from a young age. How each school kid must pledge an allegiance every bloody day at school. I'd be dead against that happening here. That's taking it too far!

As long as it doesn't cross the line into nationalism there's nothing wrong with having a sense of pride in your identity. I'd rather the American way than the British way... but the ideal is probably somewhere in between - as usual.

I'd say we've got it wrong but so has America. It should be 50/50. We've definitely got it wrong though but likewise to force an immigrate to change too much, is equally wrong. They should be allowed to be proud to be a British-Iraqi for example. Something I bet most Americans would dislike.

America is a melting pot (something ironically Britain never truly was) and it's very common to hear African-American, Italian-American, Lati-American, etc. Maybe right now Iraqi-American isn't so popular (for obvious reasons). If I moved to America I wouldn't lose my Scottishness (whatever that is) but I would embrace and adopt my new culture.

You cannot blame the people in power for being in power, if no right wingers have the balls to take them on. As the BNP are trying.

I can blame them. It was a deliberate effort on the part of the left to change the face of Britain. Britain is now a leftist country. Documents have emerged that show how New Labour planned to change the cultural and genetic makeup of Britain and encouraged immigration in a bid to make the more naturally oppossed Tories look like racist xenophobes. I forget the details - but there was a definite plan.

We're now generally much more tolerant, it's not illegal to abort a child, homophobia is greatly reduced, racism is much, much less. All rife back in their day.

Tolerance is only a good thing if used wisely. Not everything should be tolerated. Like yourself I'm against homophobia and racism. Abortion is a more controversial issue for me. I would greatly restirct its practice without employing an outright ban. I do not believe abortion is an acceptable form of contraception or that it should be carried out as late as 22 weeks.

Funnily enough I had the exact same conversation with my sister's husband at the w/e. His views are identical to yours.

I like him already.

France definitely not but Germany yes. It's only recent they've felt comfortable again to be proud of their country.

OK, perhaps. But the Germans had good reason for their national shame. But Britain?

[bradavon]

I do not believe abortion is an acceptable form of contraception

I don't believe anyone if they're being serious, thinks it's an acceptable form of contraception. It's not something anyone takes lightly.

OK, perhaps. But the Germans had good reason for their national shame. But Britain?

We used to run the largest Empire in the world, that doesn't come without consequences.

Likewise what about those lazy people from UK who go to Spain/France or somewhere and can't be arsed speaking the language.

That pisses me right off. People whose first language is English, are VERY hypocritical on this one. The majority of Brits get angry that people cannot speak English in The UK, yet see nothing odd about expecting people speak English in other countries.

I do expect a basic level of English in any customer service field, like or not it's the way of the world but otherwise I very much expect I should be the one trying to communicate with them. I don't get too bothered when people in the UK cannot speak much English too though. Patience is a virtue.

[Markgway]

I don't believe anyone if they're being serious, thinks it's an acceptable form of contraception. It's not something anyone takes lightly.

You would think... but there are women who have multiple abortions. I read about one recently who over a period of years had 16 abortions because her husband refused to wear a condom. That's probably a minority (I hope) but it goes on. Use protection I say. There are so many options these days. It's a different story if we're talking about rape or health reasons.

We used to run the largest Empire in the world, that doesn't come without consequences.

Britain was king of the colonists... but we improved more countries than we hurt. That's not say it was right just that we at least left most of these countries in a better state. Germany murdered its way thru Europe.

That pisses me right off. People whose first language is English, are VERY hypocritical on this one. The majority of Brits get angry that people cannot speak English in The UK, yet see nothing odd about expecting people speak English in other countries.

Very true. I think if you're living in a country it's your duty to learn the language.

I do expect a basic level of English in any customer service field, like or not it's the way of the world but otherwise I very much expect I should be the one trying to communicate with them.

Surely in this country the foreigners should be the ones trying to communicate with us? If you happen to know a bit of their language and that helps things along then fine but they need to learn our language. What they do in their own home is up to them.

I don't get too bothered when people in the UK cannot speak much English too though. Patience is a virtue.

Up to a point. If someone is new to the UK I would agree - as long as they're trying to learn. But I suspect there are a lot of long term immigrants (mostly Asian in my experience) who either cannot speak English or simply refuse to. That's a huge cultural negative in my book.

[grim_tales]

I agree with Brad's earlier point, I would hope abortion isn't taken lightly but it takes two to make a baby and if a woman is made pregnant in extreme circumstances/unwanted, then, I don't think she should be forced to have the baby.
About the condom/protection thing, you'd think that was obvious but I heard of one guy who was a Portuguese Catholic, not sure if they can use condoms as its against their religion.

[Markgway]

I agree with Brad's earlier point, I would hope abortion isn't taken lightly

You would hope. But sadly not everyone has the same moral fibre.

if a woman is made pregnant in extreme circumstances/unwanted, then, I don't think she should be forced to have the baby.

There's a difference between extreme circumstances (such as rape) and simply unwanted. You don't want to get pregnant use contraception or close your legs.

About the condom/protection thing, you'd think that was obvious but I heard of one guy who was a Portuguese Catholic, not sure if they can use condoms as its against their religion.

Then that's their fault. The law shouldn't allow for dumb religious practices.

[grim_tales]

Where do you draw the line? Disobeying the law is wrong, but if your religion is important to you, disobeying that is wrong. IMO it would be very important to use protection but if people don't want to, thats their choice and surely then its their fault for being dumb fucks if they know the risks? (I'm not talking about the religious example).
Women could get pregnant even if they/the man use protection.

[Markgway]

Where do you draw the line? Disobeying the law is wrong, but if your religion is important to you, disobeying that is wrong.

We live in a secular country. The law of the land outweighs the law of religion. And if you don't like that leave.

IMO it would be very important to use protection but if people don't want to, thats their choice and surely then its their fault for being dumb fucks if they know the risks?

These are often the people who use abortion as a solution. They want the fun without the responsibility.

Women could get pregnant even if they/the man use protection.

They could. But it happens very rarely. Maybe 1 in a 100. And if that's the case take it on the chin.

[grim_tales]

The law of the land SHOULD outweigh some religious law but if its what millions/billions believe in what are you gonna do? The Catholic Church/Pope doesnt believe in contraception (which shows what an idiot he is).
Using protection isnt a law per se, just extremely good advice.
You are right about this country being secular (I hope!)

[romerojpg]

The law of the land SHOULD outweigh some religious law but if its what millions/billions believe in what are you gonna do?

Yeah but only fools follow religion to start with, all Law is above pathetic sheep mentality evil Religion.

[grim_tales]

I'm sure there are many decent, good people who follow religion/faith. But those who follow some religions to the letter are usually pretty unpleasant people.

[Markgway]

Being religious doesn't mean you're a good or bad person - that's down to the individual in question. But IMO blind faith in religion (not even faith itself) is foolish and in the 21st century mind-boggling.

[grim_tales]

I agree with you on the 1st point