Yakuza Papers: Overhyped? Possible Spoilers.

oldeschool17 · Post by **oldeschool17** » 07 Apr 2009, 05:09

Apologies if this kind of thread has been done. I am just gonna ramble for a bit.

I have watched this series to completion awhile ago and thought this was a decent series but not necessarily deserving of the accolades it seems to have gained in years. Whoever came up with the comparison as the asian version of The Godfather did a great job marketing this movie as I am sure it reeled in some people based on that notion. I know it was a hit when it was screened at the cinemas in Japan but again I just don't see the hype. Practically, every movie has a cookie cutter plot which typically involves a street punk moving up the ranks, to being betrayed, to inevitably dying for a boss that only uses him as a pawn to gain more power/money. I have no problem with recurring themes but only if they are done right and this one just seems to get stale real fast after the 2nd part. I did like Bunta Sugawara's character but having to watch all of the series to see his character "develop" wasn't really worth sitting thru. The cinematography was allright. There definitely were some shots that had a grittiness to it that deserves points, although, to some it may seem rather difficult to focus on. I definitely liked the music and the narrative was ok.

In terms of technical detail, Im not qualified to say but the overall presentation was fine on the HVE releases. Although, I certainly question some of the authenticity of the subs. In terms of packaging/extras, HVE did a good job with the fold out case(gun metal case for the ones that got the limited edition), booklets, and extras dvd(although, i didnt watch that disc so i cant give a fair review on that). I tried to give this series a fair shake but in the end I think I was let down by what I thought was going to be on my top lists considering its cult status among cinema fans.

If anybody has any other suggestions of yakuza movies, I am certainly open to suggestions. However, I think I am more inclined to either the classic yakuza movies(non- guns. knives/swords only) or modern(anything in the 90s and beyond).

Probably get flamed for this but I've seen The Wolves and thought that was more entertaining than the whole Yakuza Papers: Battle Without Honor & Humanity series.

HungFist · Post by **HungFist** » 07 Apr 2009, 08:17

The comparison to The Godfather is pretty weird indeed because Fukasaku was trying to do the opposite. The Godfather was a romantic crime epic, more or less, while Fukasaku's films were in gritty documentary style playing in double speed. The series streches over several years and covers a huge amount of events. It's easy to find this kind of cinema a bit exhausting.

Graveyard of Honor is similar in style. Like Yakuza Papers, it's also based on real events.

Yakuza Graveyard is one of my personal favourites. It's more slow moving than most Fukasaku yakuza films, and features remarkably strong characters. Cops vs Thugs is another excellent film with strong storyline. Interestingly, both films differ from the usual Fukasaku yakuza eiga in the sense that the main character is a cop. I think this can make the films more appealing to many; in Fukasaku's world cops are always forced to make great compromises, and ultimately it becomes unclear on which side of the law this policeman is actually operating.

I would also recommend Sympathy for the Underdog. It was made just before the jitsuroku style took over. So, it falls some somewhere in between: a modern day set yakuza film that plays at normal speed... Very enjoyable movie.

I have not seen The Wolves yet, but Gosha's hugely stylish Violent Streets (short HKV trailer here) is one of my favourite yakuza films from the 70's. A bit something like Sam Peckinpah meets Dario Argento in the Japanese underworld.

Tetsuya Watari and Meiko Kaji in Yakuza Graveyard

Shingster · Post by **Shingster** » 07 Apr 2009, 09:57

HungFist wrote:The Godfather was a romantic crime epic

The Godfather is the exact opposite of a romantic crime film! A glossy film maybe, but it certainly doesn't romanticise the mafia.

HungFist · Post by **HungFist** » 07 Apr 2009, 10:23

Shingster wrote:
HungFist wrote:The Godfather was a romantic crime epic
The Godfather is the exact opposite of a romantic crime film! A glossy film maybe, but it certainly doesn't romanticise the mafia.

Don Corleone helping poor people to get justice when the police fails. The Corleone family taking an honorable stand against drugs. Michael putting his life on stake to avenge his father. Tom Hagen being forever faithful to the family that took him in. Even Sonny gets his redemption through a slightly martyr esque death.

Add the gloss, Nino Rota's music and the strong familly theme and you've got a film that is a romantic crime epic, more or less.

oldeschool17 · Post by **oldeschool17** » 07 Apr 2009, 11:05

Thanks for your insight. Are you implying the ones you recommended(Yakuza Graveyard, Cops vs Thugs, and Violent Streets) are better than the Battles without Honor and Humanity series?

HungFist wrote:The comparison to The Godfather is pretty weird indeed because Fukasaku was trying to do the opposite. The Godfather was a romantic crime epic, more or less, while Fukasaku's films were in gritty documentary style playing in double speed. The series streches over several years and covers a huge amount of events. It's easy to find this kind of cinema a bit exhausting.

Graveyard of Honor is similar in style. Like Yakuza Papers, it's also based on real events.

Yakuza Graveyard is one of my personal favourites. It's more slow moving than most Fukasaku yakuza films, and features remarkably strong characters. Cops vs Thugs is another excellent film with strong storyline. Interestingly, both films differ from the usual Fukasaku yakuza eiga in the sense that the main character is a cop. I think this can make the films more appealing to many; in Fukasaku's world cops are always forced to make great compromises, and ultimately it becomes unclear on which side of the law this policeman is actually operating.

I would also recommend Sympathy for the Underdog. It was made just before the jitsuroku style took over. So, it falls some somewhere in between: a modern day set yakuza film that plays at normal speed... Very enjoyable movie.

I have not seen The Wolves yet, but Gosha's hugely stylish Violent Streets (short HKV trailer here) is one of my favourite yakuza films from the 70's. A bit something like Sam Peckinpah meets Dario Argento in the Japanese underworld.

Tetsuya Watari and Meiko Kaji in Yakuza Graveyard

oldeschool17 · Post by **oldeschool17** » 07 Apr 2009, 11:08

Gonna have to agree. At least Part 1 accomplishes that. Whereas Godfather 2 shows more of the consequence of accepting the mafia lifestyle and how it impacts the family/individual. No comment on part 3 as Ive never watched it based on less than glowing reviews.

HungFist wrote:
Shingster wrote:
HungFist wrote:The Godfather was a romantic crime epic
The Godfather is the exact opposite of a romantic crime film! A glossy film maybe, but it certainly doesn't romanticise the mafia.
Don Corleone helping poor people to get justice when the police fails. The Corleone family taking an honorable stand against drugs. Michael putting his life on stake to avenge his father. Tom Hagen being forever faithful to the family that took him in. Even Sonny gets his redemption through a slightly martyr esque death.

Add the gloss, Nino Rota's music and the strong familly theme and you've got a film that is a romantic crime epic, more or less.

Shingster · Post by **Shingster** » 07 Apr 2009, 11:11

Of course any story which goes behind the veil of secret organisations will contain an element of romanticism in certain areas, as that's the nature of storytelling, but what decides whether the film is romantic or not is the overriding message, and the overriding message in The Godfather is that the mafia is pretty brutal and amoral organisation. Like I say the Godfather films paint a glossy picture of the mafia, but this should not be confused with outright romanticism.

As such I find your examples a little flimsy as a case for The Godfather as a romantic look at the mafia. It certainly looks at how Mafiosa themselves romanticise their own deeds, as in Corleone thinking creating an empire through murder and extortion is ok so long as you "look after your own people".

The Corleone family take an honourable stand against drugs because they can afford to, the fact they are against drugs doesn't negate the evil nature of their other work, so no real romanticising there!. It's a bit like saying Downfall paints a romantic picture of Hitler because it shows him to be a pet lover! "Yeah sure he was ok with the wholesale slaughter of Jews, but he didn't like cruelty to animals!!" Plus it's ultimately a question of old-fashioned values, by the end of the film the Corleone family have made peace with the selling of drugs on some of their territory iirc.

As for Michael, Tom Hagen, and Sonny I really am baffled by your comments here. Is it romanticism to show sons loving their fathers? (Vitto was Tom Hagen's father in all but blood, and Tom clearly viewed him as such, as well as Michael, Fredo and Sonny as his brothers)

Is it romanticism to show Sonny wanting to lash out at someone who hurt his sister? Violence is all Sonny really knows, he doesn't make a conscious act of martyrdom, he doesn't make a reasoned decision to sacrifice his safety to exact revenge for his sister, he runs off because he's incapable of resolving his own rage (which we see at numerous times throughout the film). There's an element of tragedy in Sonny's death, but no romanticism.

Even if you think The Godfather pt.1 romanticises the Mafia then surely you cannot make a claim for parts 2 & 3, which portray Michael's decent into hell!

Shingster · Post by **Shingster** » 07 Apr 2009, 11:15

oldeschool17 wrote:No comment on part 3 as Ive never watched it based on less than glowing reviews.

Part.3 is only considered a disappointment because of the impossible task of living up to the first parts, it's still a very good character drama and today is rightly viewed as a worthwhile film with some flaws (namely Sofia Coppola).

HungFist · Post by **HungFist** » 07 Apr 2009, 13:33

I did say "more or less", and I did not say it romanticises the mafia.

But I do get the feeling that the film show certain admiration to its characters. Even though they are bad men, and surely Coppola doesn't approve their actions as a whole, they still do many honorable things. There are scenes that make you feel proud for the character. There are many beautiful sequences, too. Unlike in Fukasaku films (which were the comparison point here) where the main character would double cross his boss, rape an innocent girl, and ultimately get killed when some nobody that we haven't seen before in the film stabs him in the back. Sonny dies honorably when a dozen men with machine guns surround him. A Fukasaku character would die alone in a gutter with a knife in his stomach, probably already out of his mind of drugs.

oldeschool17 wrote:Thanks for your insight. Are you implying the ones you recommended(Yakuza Graveyard, Cops vs Thugs, and Violent Streets) are better than the Battles without Honor and Humanity series?

It was a discreet way of saying that although I'm a genre cinema fanatic I'm not the biggest fan of Battles Without Honor and Humanity series, Graveyard of Honor, or Street Mobster

Yakuza Graveyard and Cops vs Thugs feature the same elements and style, but the storylines and characters are stronger and the films feel more balanced.

Violent Streets is an entirely different kind of movie. And very brilliant.

Edit: That being said, I don't dislike any of the mentioned Fukasaku films. I just find some of them a bit of an overkill when it comes to hectic style. But I should re-watch the Yakuza Papers series. It was a long time ago when I saw it, in fact, it was the first yakuza films I ever saw.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 07 Apr 2009, 14:27

You said it was "a romantic crime epic", doesn't this imply it romanticises the act of crime/the mafia (IYO)?

Shingster · Post by **Shingster** » 07 Apr 2009, 16:27

HungFist wrote:Sonny dies honorably when a dozen men with machine guns surround him. A Fukasaku character would die alone in a gutter with a knife in his stomach, probably already out of his mind of drugs.

He does die honourably in a rather irrational way (although it's certainly more rashly than honourably), but it's hardly an act that definies the film's stance on the Mafia is it?

Anyway, my memory of the Yakuza papers is pretty poor as I haven't seen a film in that series for many years now (and I didn't watch them all), but I'm certainly not disagreeing with your point that those films are an antithesis of glossy gangster epics like The Godfather.

I do completely disagree that the Battles Without Honour & Humanity films never show any of its characters in anything but an amoral "un-romanticised" - only going by the examples of romanticism you have listed in this thread, of course - as you seem to be suggesting. They may be fleeting moments, but there are moments of love, kinship and heavily contextual "heroism". Doesn't the first film start with some of the characters taking on a bunch of American G.Is who are raping a Japanese woman? Certainly Bunta Sugawara's character stands out as the "hero" of the piece and does have sympathetic moments.

HungFist · Post by **HungFist** » 07 Apr 2009, 17:28

grim_tales wrote:You said it was "a romantic crime epic", doesn't this imply it romanticises the act of crime/the mafia (IYO)?

From a purely techical point of view, of course not. Horror comedy as a genre doesn't mean the horror is something to be laughed at. Action comedy doesn mean all the action scenes in the film have to be comic.

Shingster wrote: I do completely disagree that the Battles Without Honour & Humanity films never show any of its characters in anything but an amoral "un-romanticised" - only going by the examples of romanticism you have listed in this thread, of course - as you seem to be suggesting. They may be fleeting moments, but there are moments of love, kinship and heavily contextual "heroism". Doesn't the first film start with some of the characters taking on a bunch of American G.Is who are raping a Japanese woman? Certainly Bunta Sugawara's character stands out as the "hero" of the piece and does have sympathetic moments.

Could be. It's been ages since I saw these as well. Graveyard of Honor, Street Mobster and Cops vs Thugs are the Fukasaku films I've watched most recently, so I was partly referring to these when talking about "Fukasaku movies". Maybe I was getting a bit off from the point myself.

Shingster · Post by **Shingster** » 07 Apr 2009, 19:50

HungFist wrote:From a purely techical point of view, of course not. Horror comedy as a genre doesn't mean the horror is something to be laughed at. Action comedy doesn mean all the action scenes in the film have to be comic.

Horror Comedy or Action Comedy describes the genre elements of the film, ie: it has action and it has comedy. Romanticism is not a description of genre, it's a matter of treatment. When you say a film romanticises crime you are literally stating that it makes crime appear romantic - ergo a romantic crime film is one that makes crime seem fanciful or chivalrous. Either that or it is a film which is equal parts a love story (romance) and a crime film - which clearly isn't the case for The Godfather films.

It's the same as the difference between the terms Action-comedy and comedic action. The former merely implies the genre elements, the latter specifically refers to the act of making the action itself a piece of comedy.

HungFist · Post by **HungFist** » 08 Apr 2009, 13:10

My post went missing. Was there a forum update? Or did I forget to click 'post'.

Anyway, I said something about The Killer... ah, righ. I said that a film/director can admire characters and their stands without romaticising their actions themselves. The Killer for example is an overly romantic film, even with the love story part excluded. The way John Woo heroes in general are willing to fight injustice and sacrifice themselves is seen in a very romantic light. Yet, this doesn't mean that Woo is romanticising killing and mass murder (which is exactly what his heroes commit).

Shingster · Post by **Shingster** » 08 Apr 2009, 14:30

Bad example, The Godfather does not romanticise any of its characters anywhere near the level that Woo romanticises the 2 main chatracters in The Killer. I think you'd be far more justified in categorising The Killer as a romantic action film than The Godfather as a romantic crime film!

No update I think, maybe you just closed the window down before pressing the post button? Can't tell you how many times i've done that before!

HungFist · Post by **HungFist** » 08 Apr 2009, 14:54

Shingster wrote:Bad example, The Godfather...

We were discussing the meaning of the expression (follow up to action comedy / horror comedy)

Shingster · Post by **Shingster** » 08 Apr 2009, 15:55

Thank you for pointing that out to me, I was clearly unaware! This is an interesting discussion, so I don't think we should start getting condescending!

OK let me reiterate: Describing The Godfather as a romantic crime drama is inherently implying that the romanticism of crime is a major element in the film - just as labelling a film as an Action Comedy is saying that the film contains major elements of Action and Comedy. When I describe a film as a Kung-Fu comedy, I obviously don't mean it is a kung-fu film which has one, maybe two, maybe three, moments of comedy in the enite film - and I'm pretty damn sure that you wouldn't immediately think "ah he's said kung-fu comedy so that must mean there is very little comedy in it, but there is some!". No, of course you wouldn't - you'd assume i'm talking about a film that is mainly kung-fu and comedy!

The examples you gave about The Godfather romanticising crime where pretty flimsy imo (when was the last time you saw the film?), and only represent a minute part of a much more thematically rich story - just as I made the example with the Yakuza Papers having minute elements of romanticism in it as well. So if I described The Yakuza Papers as a "romantic crime film" I'm sure you'd be the first to disagree! (Although i'll admit that it would be a much greater fallacy than labelling The Godfather as a romantic crime film).

So now I come to your previous statement that you seem to think I did not follow:

HungFist wrote:The Killer for example is an overly romantic film, even with the love story part excluded. The way John Woo heroes in general are willing to fight injustice and sacrifice themselves is seen in a very romantic light. Yet, this doesn't mean that Woo is romanticising killing and mass murder (which is exactly what his heroes commit).

The romantic elements in the Killer are about a hundred times more apparent and central to the themes of the film than any form of romanticism in The Godfather. I understand your principal, but I have always said in this thread that any story inevitably has elements of romanticism in them! Just because a film has elements of romanticism does not necessarily mean it should be labelled as a romantic film! The Killer is a bad example because it has massive amounts of romanticism in it, the whole subgenre is called "Heroic Bloodshed" for gawd's sake! The very term is a romantic notion!

Again I go back to my example about Kung-fu comedy, or Horror Comedy, or Action Comedy. when someone tells you that, say Drunken Master is a kung-fu comedy, what are your expectations of the film?

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 08 Apr 2009, 16:03

Shing is right. Eg - "Action comedy" or "Romantic comedy" just describes the genre of movie. Swap those around and "Comedy romance" or "comedy action" implies the romance/action in itself is comedic or amusing.
Sorry for repeating what you just said

HungFist · Post by **HungFist** » 08 Apr 2009, 16:20

Shingster wrote:Thank you for pointing that out to me, I was clearly unaware! This is an interesting discussion, so I don't think we should start getting condescending!

The whole point of this discussion is to argue about definitions and meanings of words. After the first few posts it became obvious that I won't succeed in changing your opinion, and I don't see how you could succeed in changing my opinion from right to wrong.

Shingster wrote: (when was the last time you saw the film?)

When was the original dvd set released in Europe? A few years after that.

Shingster wrote: (Although i'll admit that it would be a much greater fallacy than labelling The Godfather as a romantic crime film).

In the beginning of this thread when I called The Godfather a romantic crime epic I was comparing it to Yakuza Papers. This all started from someone calling Yakuza Papers the Japanese version of The Godfather, and I was trying to point out the difference. Plus I added the "more or less" part right after "romantic crime epic",

Shingster wrote: Again I go back to my example about Kung-fu comedy, or Horror Comedy, or Action Comedy. when someone tells you that, say Drunken Master is a kung-fu comedy, what are your expectations of the film?

Either comedy and kung fu 50/50 (as separate elements), or a fully comedic film with comedic kung fu.

Shingster · Post by **Shingster** » 08 Apr 2009, 17:58

HungFist wrote:I don't see how you could succeed in changing my opinion from right to wrong.

I'm going to assume you meant something else here, as the implication that your opinion is the correct one and no one else could possibly argue otherwise is beyond arrogance.

In the beginning of this thread when I called The Godfather a romantic crime epic I was comparing it to Yakuza Papers. This all started from someone calling Yakuza Papers the Japanese version of The Godfather, and I was trying to point out the difference. Plus I added the "more or less" part right after "romantic crime epic"

Sounds like you're back pedalling here, so basically your "more or less" refers to an extremely specific group of circumstances: It's a romantic crime film... in the sense of some of it's character's action are romanticised in one or two places... and compared to The Yakuza Papers of course! === More or Less! Wow how the hell did Grim and myself get the wrong end of the stick!

Either comedy and kung fu 50/50 (as separate elements), or a fully comedic film with comedic kung fu.

And I rest my case!

HungFist · Post by **HungFist** » 08 Apr 2009, 19:00

Shingster wrote:
HungFist wrote:I don't see how you could succeed in changing my opinion from right to wrong.
I'm going to assume you meant something else here, as the implication that your opinion is the correct one and no one else could possibly argue otherwise is beyond arrogance.

I meant to underline the fact that we are arguing about opinions. My opinion is right. Your opinion is right. For gods sake, if Brad posted here even his opinion would be right. I already explained my views concerning The Godfather in the first few posts and didn't really have anything to add. That's why I tried to shift the focus to defining terms and expressions.

Shingster wrote:
HungFist wrote:In the beginning of this thread when I called The Godfather a romantic crime epic I was comparing it to Yakuza Papers. This all started from someone calling Yakuza Papers the Japanese version of The Godfather, and I was trying to point out the difference. Plus I added the "more or less" part right after "romantic crime epic"
Sounds like you're back pedalling here, so basically your "more or less" refers to an extremely specific group of circumstances: It's a romantic crime film... in the sense of some of it's character's action are romanticised in one or two places... and compared to The Yakuza Papers of course! === More or Less! Wow how the hell did Grim and myself get the wrong end of the stick!

I'm not taking my words back. In my opinion The Godfather is a romantic crime epic. But I do want to remind you that I did not imply it's anywhere near the most romantic crime film ever made. The comparison was done to Yakuza Papers, and the "more of less" in my very first post meant that I don't mean to call in 100% romantic. Later I got the feeling that some of your arguments were responses to statements I never did. I agree with you that there's there also a lot of non-romantic content in The Godfather.

oldeschool17 · Post by **oldeschool17** » 09 Apr 2009, 03:25

I wish you two shared the same enthusiasm of discussing the godfather and semantics as you would on why Yakuza Papers is a deemed a cult classic.

HungFist · Post by **HungFist** » 09 Apr 2009, 09:02

Well, there's a lot of interesting elements in Yakuza Papers. Especially basing it on true stories, and having Japan's defeat in the second world war as one of the major background elements. Of course it wasn't the only film that dealt with these themes, but (especially from a western point of view) it's easily the biggest and most recognizable work in the genre. Plus these films are easily comparable to the gritty American crime and cop films of the time, such as The French Connection.

The timing was also good. Just like ninkyo yakuza genre was born less than 10 years before when the audiences started getting a bit tired of samurais that could never go againts the honor codes, now people were getting a bit tired of historical ninkyo yakuza films that despite the crime themes still were all about honor. Toei had been churning out these films for more than half a decade with a dozen new films every year. And all these films were constructed from almost the same elements.

The documentary style yakuza films were something new, bringing the stories to modern day, giving a more realistic look at the yakuza, and dealing with the second world war traumas. A lot of Japanese people and students could identify with these pics. In the 1970's Japan was (still) experiencing an economical boom, but WWII had also wrecked the traditional values and much of the national pride (for example Japan's defense now being in the hands of the US). The new yakuza films were also about broken values and people trying to make money at any cost.

Plus the studios in general were trying to fish more viewers with more daring and violent movies, so these yakuza films fitted in well in terms of the graphic content.

Note that this is my purely my own speculation; I have not read anything about the genre or Yakuza papers, I have not watched the dvd extras, and I haven't seen more than a dozen documentary style yakuza films. But perhaps I got a few things right there.