Animal Circuses in The UK

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 03 Mar 2009, 11:06

Read The Independent article:

http://www.independent.co.uk/environmen ... 33400.html

Are people really this ignorant/uncaring to allow and even see such a spectacle? It makes me sick some people have so little caring for other creatures.

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 03 Mar 2009, 11:56

Obviously, I'd prefer to see animals in their own environment and not in captivity or used like this.

On the other hand, if these circus-animals are treated well, fed well, etc etc... I don't really have a problem with them being in a circus.

Seeing animals up close like this and laughing at and enjoying their actions, makes us also more aware of their existence, our appreciation for those animals, and what a shame it would be if they'd stop existing. You can kinda look at these animals as 'ambassadors' for their kind, and with that I mean usually we don't think about these animals or their well-being, but when you visit a zoo or a circus or even watch a documentary, we're often left amazed and 'happy' at their behaviour and existence.

Is life in a circus the best environment for an elephant to be!? Ofcourse not. But I do feel it does serve a bigger cause, and like I said, if they are treated well and with love and respect, then I don't have a problem with it.

TBH, there are a lot more upsetting things happening to animals all across the world, than a few animals in a circus that have to perform 2 times a day.

Shen · Post by **Shen** » 03 Mar 2009, 12:36

the thing is, animals in circuses are not well treated often, and elephants, well they are hard to keep in captivity such as a zoo, or conservation place, with trained experts on hand, in a circus they are prone to mental and physical problems. And just forcing an animal to do unnatural things for our entertainment i just cant agree with it, what happens when they get too old to perform? or if the circus goes bust? or if they cant get the trick right on the night? circuses may seem like a fun place but i hate them, exploitation of animals is sick, they are not here for our entertainment and money making purposes, they have as much right to a free and natural life as we do... I don't even like zoos that much when the environment are cold and sterile and not natural, and often pretty small enclosures, and animals perform in daily shows for the entertainment of the paying public. I went once to a chinese state circus, and there were no animal involved and it was a great show, we don't need animals to make a circus good, just some human talent and imagination

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 03 Mar 2009, 12:37

Yi-Long wrote:On the other hand, if these circus-animals are treated well, fed well, etc etc... I don't really have a problem with them being in a circus.

The article points out they're not well and while it points out they passed some so called government test I seriously doubt they're in 100% health.

Yi-Long wrote:Seeing animals up close like this and laughing at and enjoying their actions, makes us also more aware of their existence, our appreciation for those animals, and what a shame it would be if they'd stop existing.

WTF! What a completely illogical point of view. I see nothing nice about laughing at an animal being forced to (yes they're forced) to stand in a completely unnatural position. People seeing animals in circus aids to their extinction, it sure as hell doesn't help it. Although granted on the grander scale their are other ways animals are being wiped out quicker.

I also seriously doubt the average ignorant fuck who goes to see them is remotely thinking about "the animals existence".

Yi-Long wrote:You can kinda look at these animals as 'ambassadors' for their kind

Ambassadors at their will maybe.

Would you be happy to see children locked up in cages and forced to perform unnatural contortionism? So how is it acceptable and even enjoyable to see an animal forced to do it?

Yi-Long wrote:and with that I mean usually we don't think about these animals or their well-being, but when you visit a zoo or a circus or even watch a documentary, we're often left amazed and 'happy' at their behaviour and existence.

There is no well being for the animals when in a circus. I feel uncomfortable about animals in Zoos but most at least are treated with a modicum of respect.

Forcing an Elephant to stand on it's rear legs is not natural behaviour. Your views are so utterly warped, at least those who go to circuses for the spectacle at least don't come up with gumf to try and explain it.

Yi-Long wrote:But I do feel it does serve a bigger cause

The bigger cause is man's greed and outright insensitivity for any other creature than it's own.

Yi-Long wrote:TBH, there are a lot more upsetting things happening to animals all across the world, than a few animals in a circus that have to perform 2 times a day.

Oh that's all right then, lets open the floodgates. It's more than a few animals, if you look at it across the world.

It's no wonder so many animals are becoming extinct each year with views such as yours out there.

I went once to a chinese state circus, and there were no animal involved and it was a great show, we don't need animals to make a circus good, just some human talent and imagination.

Exactly!

I've not been to a zoo or animal circus since I was a kid and never plan to go again. Not being able to afford to see animals in the wild is no excuse for locking them up.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 03 Mar 2009, 14:47

I think it's very unfair and cruel to make animals do things that are unnatural for the animal, just for entertainment. Some animals may be treated well, but great animals like elephants, tigers etc shouldnt be made to do tricks.

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 03 Mar 2009, 15:07

bradavon wrote:
Yi-Long wrote:On the other hand, if these circus-animals are treated well, fed well, etc etc... I don't really have a problem with them being in a circus.
The article points out they're not well and while it points out they passed some so called government test I seriously doubt they're in 100% health.

I did say IF they are treated well. If not, I have a problem with it, like most other people.

Yi-Long wrote:Seeing animals up close like this and laughing at and enjoying their actions, makes us also more aware of their existence, our appreciation for those animals, and what a shame it would be if they'd stop existing.
WTF! What a completely illogical point of view. I see nothing nice about laughing at an animal being forced to (yes they're forced) to stand in a completely unnatural position. People seeing animals in circus aids to their extinction, it sure as hell doesn't help it. Although granted on the grander scale their are other ways animals are being wiped out quicker.

I also seriously doubt the average ignorant fuck who goes to see them is remotely thinking about "the animals existence".

Maybe. I just know that whenever I visit a zoo, a pettingzoo, a circus with animals (pretty much never), etc etc, I usually see people working there who seem to care about the animals, plus personally it just reminds me of how beautiful animals are and what a shame it would be to lose them.

I don't think animals in a circus AIDS their extinction. First of all it's obviously an extremely small percentage of animals that are being kept in captivity. 2nd of all, their natural habitat is being more and more decreased by illegal woodchopping and just industrialisation and expansion of human areas...

Yi-Long wrote:You can kinda look at these animals as 'ambassadors' for their kind
Ambassadors at their will maybe.

Would you be happy to see children locked up in cages and forced to perform unnatural contortionism? So how is it acceptable and even enjoyable to see an animal forced to do it?

Yes Brad. Yes I would. That would be awesome. In fact, I'll start adjusting my basement right now so it will hold 4-6 kids. Thanks for the advice.

Yi-Long wrote:and with that I mean usually we don't think about these animals or their well-being, but when you visit a zoo or a circus or even watch a documentary, we're often left amazed and 'happy' at their behaviour and existence.
There is no well being for the animals when in a circus. I feel uncomfortable about animals in Zoos but most at least are treated with a modicum of respect.

Maybe there should be restrictions imposed on the amount of traveling a circus does, so the animals only get moved around once every 2 weeks orso!?

Forcing an Elephant to stand on it's rear legs is not natural behaviour. Your views are so utterly warped, at least those who go to circuses for the spectacle at least don't come up with gumf to try and explain it.

I'm sorry, but if you feel learning an animal a few party-tricks equals animal-abuse, we strongly disagree about that issue.

Yi-Long wrote:But I do feel it does serve a bigger cause
The bigger cause is man's greed and outright insensitivity for any other creature than it's own.

Maybe, and I'm sure there are people in the business who care much more about the cash than about the welfare of their animals... but I doubt it's a majority.

Yi-Long wrote:TBH, there are a lot more upsetting things happening to animals all across the world, than a few animals in a circus that have to perform 2 times a day.
Oh that's all right then, lets open the floodgates. It's more than a few animals, if you look at it across the world.

It's no wonder so many animals are becoming extinct each year with views such as yours out there.

You do realize you're talking to a guy that instead of beating spiders to death, carries them outside!?

If animals are poorly treated, are in poor conditions, exploited, etc etc, I feel there should be something done about it. But let's not get carried away and push this whole thing into ridicule by exaggerating it.

I went once to a chinese state circus, and there were no animal involved and it was a great show, we don't need animals to make a circus good, just some human talent and imagination.
Exactly!

I've not been to a zoo or animal circus since I was a kid and never plan to go again. Not being able to afford to see animals in the wild is no excuse for locking them up.

Ow, same here. I much prefer human circusses over animal circusses, and especially a circus like Cirque de Soleil, or the Chinese State Circus...
I love acrobatics and guys and girls who are very flexible and flipping all over the place.

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 03 Mar 2009, 15:12

BTW... Shen and Brad.... you DO realize that the children in that Chinese State Circus are also very harshly treated, compared to our mutual feelings about how children should be treated and raised!? Extremely long and hard hours of training, lots of stress, occasional physical, mental and vocal abuse, long times away from their parents, lots of traveling around, almost no privacy, not many 'rights', etc etc etc....

... but you don't mind seeing that.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 03 Mar 2009, 15:36

Yi-Long wrote:Maybe. I just know that whenever I visit a zoo, a pettingzoo, a circus with animals (pretty much never), etc etc, I usually see people working there who seem to care about the animals

For me, the fact they're being asked (or forced) to perform unnatural acts, means they're not being taken care of, not at all.

Yi-Long wrote:Maybe there should be restrictions imposed on the amount of traveling a circus does, so the animals only get moved around once every 2 weeks orso!?

I don't know but I doubt there are any restrictions at all.

Yi-Long wrote:I'm sorry, but if you feel learning an animal a few party-tricks equals animal-abuse, we strongly disagree about that issue.

You're being incredibly simplistic. Check out the photo, that's no simple trick.

Yi-Long wrote:BTW... Shen and Brad.... you DO realize that the children in that Chinese State Circus are also very harshly treated

Fair point. However:

1. Children are supposed to have parents to look after them.
2. People as a whole put humans out on a pedestal, far higher than any animal.
3. I was talking about the concept of human circuses not the specifics.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 03 Mar 2009, 16:10

They're SUPPOSED to have parents to look after them but I think the parents push them very hard, maybe thats part of Chinese culture or something. I saw a programme about the Chinese circus and a little girl was doing pull ups etc, and the trainer was pushing her really hard and she was exhausted and crying

Shen · Post by **Shen** » 03 Mar 2009, 17:02

Yi i'm fully aware of the diabolical conditions of the children in the circuses which is why i haven't been to one since i was around 13, after learning of the conditions I refused to go again. However my point was that with the right talent and imagination, a circus doesn't need animals, provided of course the performers are treated well and fairly.
One of my friends from the EDS forum was in a circus, as a contortionist, she loved circus life and there were very few children in the show, those who were had parents performing or helping in the circus and they were there because they loved to perform. But 95% percent of the performers were adults. THESE are the circuses i don't mind, talent, imagination and fun without abuse, neglect, cruelty.
On-top of the cruelty in the circuses against animals, the use of chimpanzees as entertainment in circuses/zoos etc has been one major reason for their decline in population. Stolen from the wild at a few weeks old, at least 10 chimps die whilst its being snatched, and 1 in 4 baby chimps will survive the journey to be sold. The same for other animals such as orangutans and tigers. Of course poaching has a large part in endangering species, but the entertainment business has a lot to answer for in these cases.
I dislike the exploitation of animals, in my opinion we have no right to take them from their natural habitat and force them to entertain us, this is their world as much as ours, if not more so.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 03 Mar 2009, 21:19

grim_tales wrote:They're SUPPOSED to have parents to look after them but I think the parents push them very hard

True but that goes above the points I raised and it doesn't get away from the fact most people consider our animal species greater than other animal species.

Most people would probably disagree but I say we're just an animal species as much as any other, it just so happens on our level we're more intelligent.

Shen wrote:I dislike the exploitation of animals, in my opinion we have no right to take them from their natural habitat and force them to entertain us, this is their world as much as ours, if not more so.

Exactly. couldn't agree more.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 03 Mar 2009, 21:23

No I agree with you, we should treat those animals with love and respect IMO, how we'd want to be treated.
Also I saw another programme called Baby Fight Club where they put kids in cages doing Thai boxing etc that I found quite disturbing

It wasnt like a normal martial arts class or football or whatever, which would have been OK IMO, the parents were shouting at the kids and living their dreams through them

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 03 Mar 2009, 21:27

Would you go to this circus Grim?

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 03 Mar 2009, 22:33

I'm not sure Brad - perhaps not. I might go to the Chinese circus Shen mentioned though just to see it.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 03 Mar 2009, 23:16

I said "this" circus

. So you may go to an animal circus? It's not a trick question. I'm just interested.

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 03 Mar 2009, 23:18

He will kill you if you say 'yes', Grim! Don't let him trick you!!!

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 03 Mar 2009, 23:25

Maybe not an animal circus no.
Yi,

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 04 Mar 2009, 05:04

Last time I went to a Circus I was 7 yrs old.
I can't remember if I enjoyed it or not.

But to answer the main point:
No, I don't approve of animals being used in circuses. Especially if they're made to do anything potentially dangerous or humiliating.

Humans have a choice.

Can't say I approve of the zoo mentality either unless it's for protective breeding or sanctuary.

On the whole I say: Leave the animals alone.