The Official "Dragon Dynasty" Thread!

[saltysam]

Does Gil run/used to run Love and Bullets.com?

Those reviews were awful.

Think that was Gil's sparring partner Matt Stevens.(whatever happened to him)?

[Killer Meteor]

I wouldn't mind the second disc having the longer cut as a hybrid, or through braching. Lord knows Anchor Bay has been doing that for ages!

[grim_tales]

Fortune Star did it with ABT 3 in the IVL set (longer than the HK version but shorter than the Taiwanese version), and they include the Japanese cut of PS2 in the IVL Police Story box.

[gasteropod]

I wish they hadn't featured the Japanese cut of PS2 in that set, or at least had offered both cuts in it.

[bradavon]

Fortune Star did it with ABT 3 in the IVL set (longer than the HK version but shorter than the Taiwanese version

I bet that wasn't an intentional decision.

I wish they hadn't featured the Japanese cut of PS2 in that set, or at least had offered both cuts in it.

And there lies the problem. It's impossible to please everyone.

[Yi-Long]

'Hollywood' hasnt done post 2000 movies right much either.

We all know HK material was kept in much worse conditions. Look at Warner releases for some fantastic examples of films 50 odd years old and looking excellent.

I wasnt talking about videoquality but movies being released 'CUT!' (or 'international versions, as they are also known)

'uncut' (or in this case, the 'extended' cut as that's the better cut.

In other words you don't really care about uncut at all but "your cut".

Which untill not long ago thought was THE cut. And I wouldnt be surprised if that is the director's preferred cut.

This DVD is uncut and has the original mono (until we here otherwise). Fair enough you want the extended cut but it does meet your requirements (which are still strict by most standards ). I'd just settle for a decent looking version of any cut. The Ritek DVD is so shite.

I'm not like you.

I wish we would have clarity on which cut is the director's prefered cut, although TBH it wouldnt change my feelings about which cut I prefer.

Fair enough, that would be good.

Yep.

I dont know why you are so utterly obsessed about my opinion on this release btw.

Good question: Because you have insisted on reminding every few months for the last few years. It's hilarious.

Yes... cause I've been the one who was constantly bringing it up (!)
It's YOU who always keeps bringing up my obessesion (usually when it's totally offtopic as well) for a decent release. Not me.

I think I've made it very clear from the beginning what I'd like to see with this release

Oh believe me, you have .

So what dont you understand!?

Have you even seen the movie!? And have you seen the deleted scenes!?

Yes:

Once on the MIHK Video
Once on the Ritek DVD - I said I used to own this.
Once on the French DVD - Fair recently in fact.

Three times was enough, it's just not a particularly good film. The first three Once Upon Time in China movies are staggeringly better.

You're kidding, right!? OUATIC 1 and 2 are good movies, but nowhere near as good as Fist of Legend. Wong Fei Hung is a bit of a boring hero. I like the flicks, but they hold very little replay-value and entertainment, while I could watch FOL over and over and over again (which I've done)

I have no idea, but the Siren VHS was pretty good quality so I guess they had a nice master somewhere...

How do you know that master is suitable for DVD? You've only seen it on VHS.

The master maybe fine for VHS but shite for DVD. I seriously doubt most would be happy with sub-DVD quality just so it's the super rare extended cut.

I dont know, but the movie isnt THAT old. I'm sure there's a decent master SOMEWHERE of this footage. And personally I wouldnt have cared if they had just included the scenes with slightly less good videoquality.

[Yi-Long]

Please read the posts first . Those issues were sorted.

So no foley, yes original mono and yes uncut.

Yi buy it . Seriously, it must come pretty damn close. Your VHS won't self destruct .

My VHS wont selfdestruct. You're right. So why would I buy the DVD if I can still watch and enjoy the uncut movie on VHS!?

I bet you'll do what you did for Ong-bak. Moan for months no decent version exists (even though the R4 was perfectly good) and then just buy one of the "fucked up" versions anyway .

I bought 'the fucked up version' PURELY for the great making off in Disc B. Havent even watched disc A. Ever. When I wanna watch Ong-bak I just pop in a subtitled bootleg. I paid 5-6 pounds for a great making-off. Not for the 'fucked up' version. Which I've explained many times before but apparently you're too think to 'get' it, or you're just being an ass for the sake of being an ass. Either way, I have to keep repeating myself to you.

[bradavon]

I wasnt talking about videoquality but movies being released 'CUT!' (or 'international versions, as they are also known)

Regardless "most" companies won't release a film unless it meets a minimum level of "DVD" quality.

Which untill not long ago thought was THE cut. And I wouldnt be surprised if that is the director's preferred cut.

I'd have thought the shorter cut is. Aren't most releases based on that, with the Taiwanese DVD being the only extended cut on DVD. The French DVD is the shorter cut.

You're kidding, right!? OUATIC 1 and 2 are good movies, but nowhere near as good as Fist of Legend. Wong Fei Hung is a bit of a boring hero. I like the flicks, but they hold very little replay-value and entertainment, while I could watch FOL over and over and over again (which I've done)

No I'm deadly serious. OUATIC1-3 have much more re-watch appeal.

Sure FOL has decent martial arts but in every other way it's very poor. It doesn't even look real, clearly being filmed in a stage.

OUATIC 1-3 have excellent cinematography, characters you care for and decent action too (well parts 1 and 2 anyway). I was so chuffed when Wong Fei Hung finally got together with Aunt Yee.

I dont know, but the movie isnt THAT old. I'm sure there's a decent master SOMEWHERE of this footage. And personally I wouldnt have cared if they had just included the scenes with slightly less good videoquality.

I'm guessing not or we'd have likely seen it by now .

My VHS wont selfdestruct. You're right. So why would I buy the DVD if I can still watch and enjoy the uncut movie on VHS!?

Sooner or later your VCR will .

[chenlung]

Ong Bak:

Best Video: Premier Asia.
Best Audio: Edko.
Best Extras: Depends.

Best version overall (IMO): Eastern Eye because it has subtitles for the original track and extras.

[Yi-Long]

I wasnt talking about videoquality but movies being released 'CUT!' (or 'international versions, as they are also known)

Regardless "most" companies won't release a film unless it meets a minimum level of "DVD" quality.

You just dont understand, do you!? Most recent asian movies are perfect videoquality, yet many of these movies will still get an 'international cut' release in the west.

Which untill not long ago thought was THE cut. And I wouldnt be surprised if that is the director's preferred cut.

I'd have thought the shorter cut is. Aren't most releases based on that, with the Taiwanese DVD being the only extended cut on DVD. The French DVD is the shorter cut.

Dont know. I just know the 'extra scenes' certainly arent 'filler' scenes, and the shorter cut that doesnt have these scenes are worse for missing them.

You're kidding, right!? OUATIC 1 and 2 are good movies, but nowhere near as good as Fist of Legend. Wong Fei Hung is a bit of a boring hero. I like the flicks, but they hold very little replay-value and entertainment, while I could watch FOL over and over and over again (which I've done)

No I'm deadly serious. OUATIC1-3 have much more re-watch appeal.

Sure FOL has decent martial arts but in every other way it's very poor. It doesn't even look real, clearly being filmed in a stage.

OUATIC 1-3 have excellent cinematography, characters you care for and decent action too (well parts 1 and 2 anyway). I was so chuffed when Wong Fei Hung finally got together with Aunt Yee.

Different strokes for different folks I guess. I can rewatch FOL each and every day, and OUATIC 1 drags a bit as it's not very interesting, and OUATIC2 has a decent story but sadly the end-fight with Donnie is a bit disappointing.

I dont know, but the movie isnt THAT old. I'm sure there's a decent master SOMEWHERE of this footage. And personally I wouldnt have cared if they had just included the scenes with slightly less good videoquality.

I'm guessing not or we'd have likely seen it by now .

No idea. I'm not sure they've even bothered looking for it.

My VHS wont selfdestruct. You're right. So why would I buy the DVD if I can still watch and enjoy the uncut movie on VHS!?

Sooner or later your VCR will .

Until then, it will do.

[chenlung]

I do sympathise with Yi Long if he's got a version longer than the standard one out and has been used to it for years. As said, the best thing would be to include all versions using seamless branching and everyone would be happy.

Some like the standard Cantonese version (me and anyone else).
Some are curious about the original English dub (me).
Some want the longer Taiwanese edit and also with a Cantonese option (Yi Long and The Running Man)
Some may prefer the Dimension version (Ivan Drago).

[Yi-Long]

Ong Bak:

Best Video: Premier Asia.
Best Audio: Edko.
Best Extras: Depends.

Best version overall (IMO): Eastern Eye because it has subtitles for the original track and extras.

Best Ong-bak version: Subtitled Bootleg.

[chenlung]

Ong Bak:

Best Video: Premier Asia.
Best Audio: Edko.
Best Extras: Depends.

Best version overall (IMO): Eastern Eye because it has subtitles for the original track and extras.

Best Ong-bak version: Subtitled Bootleg.

Has it got something better than other versions don't?

I was talking about legal DVDs that cover the basic requirements anyway .

[Yi-Long]

Ong Bak:

Best Video: Premier Asia.
Best Audio: Edko.
Best Extras: Depends.

Best version overall (IMO): Eastern Eye because it has subtitles for the original track and extras.

Best Ong-bak version: Subtitled Bootleg.

Has it got something better than other versions don't?

I was talking about legal DVDs that cover the basic requirements anyway .

It just has the movie, uncut, subbed, original music. That's all I need.
The R4 also has that, but they decided to throw 2 versions cramped on 1 disc. Why would I wanna pay fullprice for such a release!?

The bootleg will do until they release a proper version. I'm not one of those people that just keeps buying the same movie over and over again until they finally get it right. I'm not made out of money. Plenty of good releases of good movies out there to spend my money on instead.

[bradavon]

Best Ong-bak version: Subtitled Bootleg.

Bollocks!

Bootlegs are always compressed to fuck and even the DVD9 ones are poorly ripped (by even poor professional standards). How you can say a bootleg is better than the R4? You just won't admit there isn't much wrong with the R4, especially compared to a bootleg.

You just dont understand, do you!? Most recent asian movies are perfect videoquality, yet many of these movies will still get an 'international cut' release in the west.

Calm down. We're not talking about a recent HK movie, so your point is moot.

Recent movies with alternate cuts almost always have high quality masters of each cut, that just isn't the case with FOL. It's well known the Taiwanese footage is rare and hard to get hold of.

Why are you so sure DD could even get it? Isn't the DD missing some of the footage?

and OUATIC2 has a decent story but sadly the end-fight with Donnie is a bit disappointing.

Fair enough. I thought it could've been better but was still excellent.

I do sympathise with Yi Long if he's got a version longer than the standard one out and has been used to it for years. As said, the best thing would be to include all versions using seamless branching and everyone would be happy.

Some like the standard Cantonese version (me and anyone else).
Some are curious about the original English dub (me).
Some want the longer Taiwanese edit and also with a Cantonese option (Yi Long and The Running Man)
Some may prefer the Dimension version (Ivan Drago).

Wouldn't that mean a multiple disc release? Which considering a disc is needed for extras (it's what's expected) would mean a high production cost and thus financial loss. Considering the film we're discussing I think we've been lucky to get what we have.

It just has the movie, uncut, subbed, original music. That's all I need.
The R4 also has that, but they decided to throw 2 versions cramped on 1 disc. Why would I wanna pay fullprice for such a release!?

You're not paying extra for it, just ignore it. The R4 is cheap nowadays.

How can you say a bootleg crammed on to a DVD5 is fine but the R4 also crammed on to a DVD5 is not (two cuts on a DVD9, effectively therefore a DVD5)?

The bootleg will do until they release a proper version.

I seriously doubt your beloved bootleg compares well to the R4. It's probably compressed to fuck (by professional standards).

[grim_tales]

To say the Ong Bak bootleg is better than the R4/Premier Asia is a pile of arse. The subbed boot I had had terrible mistimed subs! The video quality is rubbish.

[Old Pang Yau]

Well, this might piss people off...

I picked up the Fist of Legend DVD today, and everything was checking out fine (aside from the English opening and ending credits), and then I checked out one thing in the subtitles that I remember someone mentioning before... the ending...

If I no longer have a country, at least I can be with the woman I love

Despite this, the subtitles follow up with "Jing Wu Men didn't vanish afterwards; they expanded all over China; they even expanded to Singapore. As for Chen Zhen, he is unaccounted for"

Didn't he just "say" that he was going to be with Mitsuko? Now he's disappeared?

Plus, while the subtitles don't have the Japanese villain saying "The sign says Jing Wu Is Closed", there is an all caps text in quotes saying "JING WU MEN IS CLOSED". Come on, even by now everyone knows what that infamous sign says.

Upon further inspecting the subtitles, it seems like they start to lean more into dubtitle territory around the 80 minute mark (hence the two errors mentioned above). Before this, the subtitles would only vaguely match the English dub in terms of whatever they would talk about, sometimes being completely different, but when getting into the last 20 minutes or so, they follow the dubbed dialogue way too closely. I don't quite understand this. It's almost as if they were working on translating the film, gave up on the final reel of the film, and just went "eh, we'll just write the english dub here". Never seen this before, usually it's all proper subtitles or all dubtitles, not mostly proper subtitles, then ending with dubtitles.

It's too bad, as this was just inches away from being the perfect release of the film. All it took was just using the proper Chinese opening and ending credits, and taking a wee bit more time to translate all of the final 20 minutes of the film. The A/V quality is great and the extras are probably the most a DVD release of this film has ever had.

Now, I realize that I probably just gave Yi-Long more "ammo" in his argument against DD's release (everyone is entitled to their opinion, after all), but I'm just being honest. I still think this disc is worth a purchase, even with its faults. It could be better, sure, but I've still enjoyed checking this disc out since I got it, and have no regrets.

EDIT: Okay, I just remembered something... it's slightly cut... it's missing the final few seconds of Chin Siu-ho running with the other Jing Wu students... crap...

[Shingster]

I wasnt talking about videoquality but movies being released 'CUT!' (or 'international versions, as they are also known)

This is absolute lunacy. DD and HKVideo have released the correct cut of Fist of Legend on DVD. It is not the "International Cut" at all, it is an extended cut that made it out to Taiwan and various other Asian territories (and Australia?). How you can keep arrogantly stating that the Taiwanese edit is the "uncut" is beyond me, have you never heard of HK films having longer edits in other Asian territories before? Do you go about saying the Taiwanese edit of The Killer is the true cut? Do you go about saying the same about Ashes of Time?

And while we're talking about "Director's Vision" Ashes of Time is a perfect example, as when WKW finally released his preferred edit of the film, he cut loads of footage out - footage that most fans of the film think is absolutely essential! That's one DC that's clearly shorter than the Taiwan cut!

It sucks that your preferred cut of the film hasn't made it to DVD fully remastered yet, but all you're doing now with your petulant moping and labelling the Taiwanese edit as "uncut" is spreading misinformation. Pure and simple.

Ignore Brad's goading and stick to your VHS, but don't expect to see that same cut of the film making it to HD in any official capacity in the near or foreseeable future. Why? BECAUSE IT'S NOT THE OFFICIAL CUT OF THE FILM.

[chenlung]

Bootlegs are always compressed to fuck and even the DVD9 ones are poorly ripped (by even poor professional standards).

I remember 'Mr & Mrs Smith' had a bootleg better looking that the official one , but I do agree with Yi Long that two versions are crammed onto the disc and I don't like double-dipping as people aren't always made of money.

In that case, the Korean DVD then which also has DTS, but no idea about the subtitles for the extras (or if they're decent with the film).

It's well known the Taiwanese footage is rare and hard to get hold of.

It's not super-rare, but it isn't floating around in quantity. A number of people have it (including myself).

Why are you so sure DD could even get it? Isn't the DD missing some of the footage?

Someone was lazy and didn't check the references online.

Either that, or they deemed it so small (3 seconds) it wasn't worth the effort (or possibly money).

Wouldn't that mean a multiple disc release? Which considering a disc is needed for extras (it's what's expected) would mean a high production cost and thus financial loss. Considering the film we're discussing I think we've been lucky to get what we have.

Bollocks!



Well, seamless branching doesn't require multiple discs.

I strongly disagree with "we've been lucky to get what we have". It's that bullshit excuse that results in crap. The film is widely available and I wanted better personally.

Remember that just because it's rare, doesn't excuse you from being lazy on it and not applying the correct flags and making the best of it.

I don't know the circumstances at DD, but some people aren't doing their jobs right.

[bradavon]

Well bloody said Shingster!

Yi also forgets all the numerous Fearless cuts, a good portion of them are director approved, if not the director's cut. It was the director who chose to originally release it shorter.

You're right I was deliberately goading Yi. I cannot resist, when it comes to FOL. It's too easy . Speaking of arrogance, that's just the word I was trying to think of regarding Yi's stance on a bootleg being better than the R4 for Ong-bak too.

To say the Ong Bak bootleg is better than the R4/Premier Asia is a pile of arse. The subbed boot I had had terrible mistimed subs! The video quality is rubbish.

Not all bootlegs are the same, they differ wildly but your point otherwise is spot on.

EDIT: Okay, I just remembered something... it's slightly cut... it's missing the final few seconds of Chin Siu-ho running with the other Jing Wu students... crap...

That is a shame. I wouldn't miss that though.

It's a pity the subs are based on the dub for big parts of the movie. That example you give is completely different from what the proper subs say.

I remember 'Mr & Mrs Smith' had a bootleg better looking that the official one

I've owned some of those . I never bought the Star Wars re-releases (of the original cuts) as my bootlegs look 100% the same anyway.

but I do agree with Yi Long that two versions are crammed onto the disc

Don't get me wrong I agree it's shite but I disagree the bootleg is better. I also think you can only moan so much, you then just need to buy the best of the bunch and make do with it.

and I don't like double-dipping as people aren't always made of money.

There shouldn't really be any need to. For English speaking people the R4 has always been the only viable choice.

In that case, the Korean DVD then which also has DTS, but no idea about the subtitles for the extras (or if they're decent with the film).

I thought it had no English subs on the film either?

It's not super-rare, but it isn't floating around in quantity. A number of people have it (including myself).

I really just meant it's harder to get hold of and not the offical uncut cut. Shingster said it better.

Well, seamless branching doesn't require multiple discs.

True but won't some cuts require separate discs, no?

I strongly disagree with "we've been lucky to get what we have". It's that bullshit excuse that results in crap.

Granted but I thought what we've been given isn't crap, pretty good in fact, no? If it was crap I'd be agreeing more with your point.

I don't know the circumstances at DD, but some people aren't doing their jobs right.

Fair point. It is worth remembering licensing often rears it's ugly head, something quickly forgotten when something isn't quite right. That's just a general comment btw.

[Shingster]

Well, this might piss people off...

I picked up the Fist of Legend DVD today, and everything was checking out fine (aside from the English opening and ending credits), and then I checked out one thing in the subtitles that I remember someone mentioning before... the ending...

Despite this, the subtitles follow up with "Jing Wu Men didn't vanish afterwards; they expanded all over China; they even expanded to Singapore. As for Chen Zhen, he is unaccounted for"

I see nothing particularly wrong there "he is unaccounted for" suggests he settled down with Mitsuko and never made any public "rebellion" ever again. It's a "walked off into the sunset" statement.

Upon further inspecting the subtitles, it seems like they start to lean more into dubtitle territory around the 80 minute mark (hence the two errors mentioned above). Before this, the subtitles would only vaguely match the English dub in terms of whatever they would talk about, sometimes being completely different, but when getting into the last 20 minutes or so, they follow the dubbed dialogue way too closely. I don't quite understand this. It's almost as if they were working on translating the film, gave up on the final reel of the film, and just went "eh, we'll just write the english dub here". Never seen this before, usually it's all proper subtitles or all dubtitles, not mostly proper subtitles, then ending with dubtitles.

I've seen it many times on Anime when the translation and dub have been made in-house, sometimes when doing the English dub they just use the proper translation and then expand/tweak it to match lip movements better. (Well, actually they have an English ADR writer who works out the English dub script from the original translation, but the correct translation forms the basis for everything they do.)

Is the DD English dub an in-house one?

[Yi-Long]

To say the Ong Bak bootleg is better than the R4/Premier Asia is a pile of arse. The subbed boot I had had terrible mistimed subs! The video quality is rubbish.

Maybe there's more than 1 bootleg of this movie going the rounds, Grim!? Mine is good.

[Old Pang Yau]

Is the DD English dub an in-house one?

It's the old Dimension one from years back.

And yeah, people might not really miss the last shot of Chin Siu-ho and company running... but still, it IS part of the original cut. Let's hope if DD ever grabs Drunken Master II that they take the time to reinstate the original ending! Although, that's a bit longer than just several seconds.

Also, I'm wondering how PS3 will turn out as its also a Dimension-to-Dragon Dynasty release... hopefully they use the Fortune Star print.

[grim_tales]

I dunno why Yi is moaning about OB - the R4 has the uncut/proper edit of the film and extras. Just ignore the international cut. The problem with that is?
I'll be getting the DD of FOL at some point too I'm sure
I'm sure I remember that final part at the end where he reunites with the students too, that was on the MIHK VHS. Was it on the French DVD?

[bradavon]

Maybe there's more than 1 bootleg of this movie going the rounds, Grim!?

There will be for sure. Bootlegs are always made by lots of different people.

The one I used to own was in good nick too, it wasn't a patch on a properly mastered DVD though (even a DVD5 one).

And yeah, people might not really miss the last shot of Chin Siu-ho and company running... but still, it IS part of the original cut.

Agreed. I wasn't trying to say otherwise .

Let's hope if DD ever grabs Drunken Master II that they take the time to reinstate the original ending! Although, that's a bit longer than just several seconds.

Personally I couldn't stand that ending. Dimension were right to chop it. It ranks with "that" scene in Naked Weapon as being completely disgusting and poorly decided upon.

Also, I'm wondering how PS3 will turn out as its also a Dimension-to-Dragon Dynasty release... hopefully they use the Fortune Star print.

That would be ace. It looks excellent.