The Official "Dragon Dynasty" Thread!

[chenlung]

I believe the bird foley is original, just sticks out and seemed reminiscent of Celestial's work.

[bradavon]

The DD DVD is the HK Cut, surely you didn't expect it to be the Taiwanese Extended Cut Yi? AFAIK that cut has only ever been seen on the Ritek DVD (on DVD anyway) and the quality is awful. I used to own it. Big Grimmy Style now has it.

I'd not want to risk a drop in quality for some deleted scenes myself.

I so wish I'd had a bet with Eva. I just knew you'd never be happy with this title. You've not even seen it and you already pissed . Yes you did ask for that one .

It looks excellent in my book. If I was a fan I'd be snapping it up. I wonder why Mandarin has been included too.

[chenlung]

Replaced credit sequence is really annoying.

Also the lack of the 1994 English dub in mono.

Subtitles a little ropey, but reported to be otherwise good.

I'll wait for a proper review.

[Killer Meteor]

Well, the Mandarin version is handy for those who speak Mandarin at least, and if anyone restored the longer cut, I think that would be Mandarin only?

TBH, both dialects should be included whenever possible because sometimes, correct language be damned, I prefer the other one. For example, I much prefer the Mandarin film Fist of Fury in Cantonese and the Cantonese film Snake In The Eagle's Shadow in Mandarin, due to familiarity (damn you HKL!), my personal preference for the vocal performances, and the fact that the alternate dialect actually has the full music score*

Was FOL sync-sound?

* To clarify, the Mandarin version of FoF is missing the music from the sequence where Suzuki is informed of Chen Jen trashing the school, and the Cantonese version of SitES is missing the music from the scene when Simon Yuen beats the living daylights out of the hotel bouncers (and compromising the scene in the process.

[chenlung]

FOL wasn't sync-sound.

Just worth noting that Mei Ah's 'Original Theatrical Mixes' are often sadly downmixes.

[Yi-Long]

The DD DVD is the HK Cut, surely you didn't expect it to be the Taiwanese Extended Cut Yi? AFAIK that cut has only ever been seen on the Ritek DVD (on DVD anyway) and the quality is awful. I used to own it. Big Grimmy Style now has it.

I'd not want to risk a drop in quality for some deleted scenes myself.

I so wish I'd had a bet with Eva. I just knew you'd never be happy with this title. You've not even seen it and you already pissed . Yes you did ask for that one .

It looks excellent in my book. If I was a fan I'd be snapping it up. I wonder why Mandarin has been included too.

The Siren VHS is the version I know and love, and apparently, according to some site, THAT's the taiwanese extended cut. For me, those scenes really added to the movie.

They fucked up the sound according to some, as in added effects, and possibly a music drop-out in the Chin SIu Ho vs Jet fight which affects the fight.

It could and should have been very easy to have done this release 'right', but even after all these many MANY years it's still at the very least 'flawed'.

[bradavon]

About the audio:

I believe the bird foley is original, just sticks out and seemed reminiscent of Celestial's work.

Personally I wouldn't rely on a handful of reviews and opinions on a film you clearly have been looking forward to for so long. Buy it and see for yourself.

It's not like your VHS is excellent quality, it won't last forever too. The French DVD has no English subs and the Ritek DVD is OOP. What do you plan to do now? Wait even longer? I've read nothing to say it's "fucked up" just some forum posts which are so loose and that review you posted is so vague. Nothing seems definite either way, wait for proper reviews and lengthy descriptive posts first.

I did say you'd never be happy with it and you said "all I require is: XXX". I knew you'd really require much more, you never mentioned The Taiwanese cut as being a must before . I know you hate it when I (and Eva) dig you about FOL but really your expectations are so insanely high (even if you won't admit it), it was doomed to fail. At least actually see it for yourself.

Didn't you say, all you ask is: the original language (check) and uncut (check), what more do you ask? The Taiwanese cut is an extended cut, it's not the original cut.

They fucked up the sound according to some, as in added effects, and possibly a music drop-out in the Chin SIu Ho vs Jet fight which affects the fight.

"According to some", "possibly fucked up music". Oh how certain .

p.s - So what if it is flawed? What DVD isn't flawed? It's still leaps and bounds above all/most other releases. Your VHS maybe the extended cut but compared to the DVD it will look awful. It's swings and roundabouts.

[chenlung]

The Siren VHS is the version I know and love, and apparently, according to some site, THAT's the taiwanese extended cut. For me, those scenes really added to the movie.

They do add to the film, agreed.

As I've said, that version sounds unusual. You absolutely sure it's in Cantonese and not Mandarin?

It would have been awkward to implement those scenes into the film with the difference in clarity and burnt-in subtitles. However, perhaps that could have been cropped off (carefully into 1:85:1 like the film) and clarity excused a little, then it could have used seamless branching to implement the following versions into the film:

Eastern Productions cut: English, Cantonese and Mandarin.
English Dimension cut: English.
Eastern Productions (Taiwanese) cut: Cantonese and Mandarin.

They fucked up the sound according to some, as in added effects, and possibly a music drop-out in the Chin SIu Ho vs Jet fight which affects the fight.

No. Generally before Dragon Dynasty ever got the rights:

Cantonese: No music.
Mandarin: Music.

The "added bird effects" claim was likely just a misassumption by Kung Fu Bob and they're original as I seem to recall them in my VHS from years ago.

It could and should have been very easy to have done this release 'right', but even after all these many MANY years it's still at the very least 'flawed'.

It could have had more, yes. My gripe is with the lack of the original credit sequence, slightly dodgy subtitles (although it's not known if they're worse at the moment), the lack of the 6th deleted scene and no original English dub.

[bradavon]

Surely the subs are a lot better than the ones on the Ritek DVD? Those were awful. If so, meh enough said.

[chenlung]

Personally I wouldn't rely on a handful of reviews and opinions on a film you clearly have been looking forward to for so long. Buy it and see for yourself.

I'm not relying on them. Just saying that the bird foley probably is original and DD haven't done anything. The reason it was brought up was because the foley may have been so prominent that it raised questions about tampering.

And erm, please separate your dialogue between Yi Long and I by quoting the former .

[Killer Meteor]

Sounds like it could be OK after all. Much as I dislike him, Gil (sorry, Running Man!) is quite detailed in his reviews so when he gets it we might a clearer picture of what the DVD is like (though bare in mind that Gil hates DD/HKL stuff with a passion!)

[Yi-Long]

The VHS I have and love, the Siren VHS, is the only version I know. it was completely in cantonese so I assumed it was the UNCUT version, and not some extended cut.

Obviously, when I said I wanted the 'uncut' version, I meant the version that I've seen and love and that I assumed to be the complete version.

I'll go check the VHS tonight to check for the bird-sounds and the drop-out in music during that fight. I'm not sure how that was.

I dont think I'll buy it yet. Maybe I'll wait for a BR version and see how that works out. I'm a pretty patient guy. Obviously this version is pretty much the best available at the moment....

... but it's just not as good as it could be, and thus not as good as it should be. After many MANY years of constant barrages of complaints about downmixes and lack of original mono etc etc etc, it's staggering to see them keep making the same mistake.

The main point is that after all these years, and they have had a LONG time to get this right, the didnt deliver. The demands were NOT high. I can live with a less than perfect videoquality. I can even live with subs that arent perfect.
But such basic mistakes and the sad disappointment that this isnt the version I know and love, kinda makes this a 'so close'.

[chenlung]

Sounds like it could be OK after all. Much as I dislike him, Gil (sorry, Running Man!) is quite detailed in his reviews so when he gets it we might a clearer picture of what the DVD is like (though bare in mind that Gil hates DD/HKL stuff with a passion!)

I think TRM is just being honest:

He praises good and bad. It only seems like he's hell-bent because it's the only company that gets the majority of negative comments because they're a major player in the US market, etc.

For instance, I praise the good and bad honestly in my reviews, but the reason I'm not criticised is my posts aren't always as long and in quantity. Also when TRM comments, a tone does come off (sometimes a little bit unnecessary ), but most of that's down to the ignorance of people that seem happy to excuse terrible quality. The frustration of having a film released in an inferior manner is annoying and I can understand that.

[Killer Meteor]

Hmm...is Cantonese spoken in other territories besides HK? Could it be a Maylaysian or Singaporean cut you had Yi?

Often, it is only one particular version that becomes the standard one on DVD. For example, most territories now get for DVD whichever version Fortune Star (to use an example) decided to remaster. In most cases, this is the one the HK cinemas had, occasionaly a Mainland or Taiwanese variant. There isn't always a "wrong" print. Just because the Siren VHS was longer, that doesn't mean the MIHK UK Cantonese tape or DD's new DVD is wrong

[Yi-Long]

Hmm...is Cantonese spoken in other territories besides HK? Could it be a Maylaysian or Singaporean cut you had Yi?

Often, it is only one particular version that becomes the standard one on DVD. For example, most territories now get for DVD whichever version Fortune Star (to use an example) decided to remaster. In most cases, this is the one the HK cinemas had, occasionaly a Mainland or Taiwanese variant. There isn't always a "wrong" print. Just because the Siren VHS was longer, that doesn't mean the MIHK UK Cantonese tape or DD's new DVD is wrong

I know. I never said the HK print was 'wrong' I just know and love the 'longer' cut (which I've only recently have learned to know that it's 'longer').

I have no clue what 'cut' it was. It's the Siren VHS, that's all I know. Ofcourse the VHS also isnt perfect, but it's still the most complete version I guess.

[Killer Meteor]

Another thing to consider, is that HK films also often underwent some last minute editing between the "midnight screening" openings, and the general release, often based on the audience's actual recactions as the film played. This can sometimes explain why an old tape or bootleg of a theatre print might have scenes not present in a later DVD struck from the masters

[Yi-Long]

Another thing to consider, is that HK films also often underwent some last minute editing between the "midnight screening" openings, and the general release, often based on the audience's actual recactions as the film played. This can sometimes explain why an old tape or bootleg of a theatre print might have scenes not present in a later DVD struck from the masters

I know some movies were cut a bit shorter just so they could fit more screenings into a day.

Either way, I feel the 'extended' cut IS the 'uncut' version, simply because the cut scenes really arent 'filler' or something, but really ADD to the movie and the characters. When I first learned these were the scenes that were cut, I couldnt even believe it.

The reason I love FOL so much is because the movie is really fast-paced and doesnt really have any scenes in it that shouldnt be there.

Apparently, some idiot thought otherwise and made a slightly shorter cut.

[Old Pang Yau]

Well, I'm buying this. It sounds like the only detriments are the alternate opening credits, minor sub-flubs, and MAYBE some minor "bird foley"... which may already be in the Cantonese version anyway. Apparently the picture quality is the best so far, with none of the "frame flickers" Tai Chi Master had. Best Buy apparently has it for about $18, so I'm just going there tomorrow to pick it up... along with a $5 copy of Seven Swords.

[bradavon]

And erm, please separate your dialogue between Yi Long and I by quoting the former .

Sorry. I was specifically replying to Yi, no other. I used your post just as an example.

Obviously, when I said I wanted the 'uncut' version, I meant the version that I've seen and love and that I assumed to be the complete version.

Keep changing the goal posts . To most, Uncut means "Director approved", "Theatrical Cut", "Not Censored cut" and the like. NOT an extended cut. An Extended Cut is just that, it's not "the" uncut print and every other should be considered cut.

Maybe I'll wait for a BR version and see how that works out.

Who needs comedies and when you have Yi-Long . We've had years of your winging, a decent version (comparatively speaking) finally comes along and now you'll wait for the BD.

There's absolutely nothing to say the BD will meet your strict requirements. Why? This is a pre-2000 Hong Kong movie and as we all know that just seems to make it much, much harder to get right. That's just the reality.

it's staggering to see them keep making the same mistake.

What uncut and in the original language? Which I believe is all you made a point of saying you required.

Reading above it seems there's nothing concrete to say the Cantonese isn't original.

The main point is that after all these years, and they have had a LONG time to get this right, the didnt deliver. The demands were NOT high. I can live with a less than perfect videoquality. I can even live with subs that arent perfect.
But such basic mistakes and the sad disappointment that this isnt the version I know and love, kinda makes this a 'so close'.

And you're basing that on what? A two bit, poorly written review.

Your post makes no sense:

Poor subs fine
Added foley bad

To another decent subs would be more important but as it's not to you, it's fucked up.

[bradavon]

Often, it is only one particular version that becomes the standard one on DVD. For example, most territories now get for DVD whichever version Fortune Star (to use an example) decided to remaster. In most cases, this is the one the HK cinemas had, occasionaly a Mainland or Taiwanese variant. There isn't always a "wrong" print. Just because the Siren VHS was longer, that doesn't mean the MIHK UK Cantonese tape or DD's new DVD is wrong

It doesn't happen often but well bloody said.

I know. I never said the HK print was 'wrong' I just know and love the 'longer' cut (which I've only recently have learned to know that it's 'longer').

True but you did say the DD was fucked up, based on hear say and a poorly written review.

Either way, I feel the 'extended' cut IS the 'uncut' version, simply because the cut scenes really arent 'filler' or something, but really ADD to the movie and the characters. When I first learned these were the scenes that were cut, I couldnt even believe it.

Which cut is the director's cut? Is there any evidence on that one?

Personally I found the extended footage all to be deleted scenes. None rememberable (sp?).

[chenlung]

There isn't a reason to be pissed off at Dragon Dynasty for using the original version put out on other versions, not a pre-release print as such that sneaked out onto an Australian VHS.

Sure, it would be nice to see it used incorporating seamless branching, but not many knew about it until now. I don't want to down and patronise another die-hard fan by saying that - just my opinion . I can understand you being used to that version and wanting more than on offer (like me with stuff like the original English dub), but I don't think that warrants a fucked-up disc.

Personally I found the extended footage all to be deleted scenes. None rememberable (sp?).

They weren't absolutely necessary for the film, but they are definitely worth watching as they reveal depth to the characters - also some bits do act as an extension.

[bradavon]

I imagine seamless branching costs and DD may also not have the technology to do it.

Considering most people (I'd guess) have seen the shorter cut, releasing only the extended cut may alienate the majority not minority of fans. Just like has happened with Terminator 2.

[chenlung]

I imagine seamless branching costs and DD may also not have the technology to do it.

I was told by Media Blasters that it wasn't expensive or difficult.

Companies just don't ever think or consider it, my theory.

[Yi-Long]

Obviously, when I said I wanted the 'uncut' version, I meant the version that I've seen and love and that I assumed to be the complete version.

Keep changing the goal posts . To most, Uncut means "Director approved", "Theatrical Cut", "Not Censored cut" and the like. NOT an extended cut. An Extended Cut is just that, it's not "the" uncut print and every other should be considered cut.

I never changed the goalposts. I thought from the very beginning that the version that I know and love since day one, was the uncut HK version. That's always been the only version I wanted.

Maybe I'll wait for a BR version and see how that works out.

Who needs comedies and when you have Yi-Long . We've had years of your winging, a decent version (comparatively speaking) finally comes along and now you'll wait for the BD.

There's absolutely nothing to say the BD will meet your strict requirements. Why? This is a pre-2000 Hong Kong movie and as we all know that just seems to make it much, much harder to get right. That's just the reality.

'Hollywood' hasnt done post 2000 movies right much either. That doesnt mean I'm gonna spend money on incomplete movies.
The demands arent high. I dont care for picture perfect video-quality or extras or original trailers or dubs or whatever. Just original mono (that means no added effects or new music or whatever, and 'uncut' (or in this case, the 'extended' cut as that's the better cut.
I wish we would have clarity on which cut is the director's prefered cut, although TBH it wouldnt change my feelings about which cut I prefer.

it's staggering to see them keep making the same mistake.

What uncut and in the original language? Which I believe is all you made a point of saying you required.

Reading above it seems there's nothing concrete to say the Cantonese isn't original.

Initial reports said there were added effects and a music drop.

The main point is that after all these years, and they have had a LONG time to get this right, the didnt deliver. The demands were NOT high. I can live with a less than perfect videoquality. I can even live with subs that arent perfect.
But such basic mistakes and the sad disappointment that this isnt the version I know and love, kinda makes this a 'so close'.

And you're basing that on what? A two bit, poorly written review.

Your post makes no sense:

Poor subs fine
Added foley bad

To another decent subs would be more important but as it's not to you, it's fucked up.

To me perfect subs are ofcourse nice, but not a 'must', as I usually get the general idea anyway. I recently watched 5 Venoms on DVD and the dutch subs werent very good either, and although it's a bit bothersome at times, I can live with that.

Weird noises and newly added soundeffects often sound very out of place and take you out of the movie and just annoy you.

I dont know why you are so utterly obsessed about my opinion on this release btw. I think I've made it very clear from the beginning what I'd like to see with this release, and they kept us waiting and begging for it for many MANY years.... and they could have done better.

[Yi-Long]

I know. I never said the HK print was 'wrong' I just know and love the 'longer' cut (which I've only recently have learned to know that it's 'longer').

True but you did say the DD was fucked up, based on hear say and a poorly written review.

...and if those are true, and I have no reason they believe they're not, then I feel they fucked up, considering the high-profile title, and the huge amount of time they had to get this right.

Either way, I feel the 'extended' cut IS the 'uncut' version, simply because the cut scenes really arent 'filler' or something, but really ADD to the movie and the characters. When I first learned these were the scenes that were cut, I couldnt even believe it.

Which cut is the director's cut? Is there any evidence on that one?

Personally I found the extended footage all to be deleted scenes. None rememberable (sp?).

Have you even seen the movie!? And have you seen the deleted scenes!?

I feel they added a lot. The little bow from the japanese girlfriend to show respect after such bad treatment, the 'dark side' of Chin Siu Ho coping with his role as headmaster, the chessgame between the japanese master and the translator over a game of chess, the remorse and honor of the japanese karate teacher who felt betrayed by his own leader after finding out his opponent had been poisoned, etc.

How can anyone who has seen the movie say these arent important scenes!? It really helps make this movie into a whole lot less of a black-white, good chinese vs. bad japanese movie. It shows the characters are real, have doubts, have honor, have respect, etc.
Nowhere does the footage drag, or feel out of place. It's very much part of the movie, and what makes it great.