The Wong Kar-wai thread!

[bradavon]

Bloody hell give it a chance guys. At least actually see the new cut before you dismiss it.

I've never understood why people get so irate about changes/poor remastering jobs when the old version still exists. Yes it would be better to remaster both cuts but they haven't. The new DVD doesn't mean the old DVDs will suddenly evaporate.

You already have no problem with the existing DVDs, so watch them and enjoy them, as you have been doing for years anyway. Me I'll at least be giving the new cut a chance.

Why don't you go back to Chungking Express and remove Faye Wong and Tony Leung, while you're at it?

What a ridiculous statement. WKW is on record saying Ashes of Time was not shot how he wanted it to be and on the cheap.

That alone makes it different from hacking up a film he's happy with and didn't have any production troubles to speak of.

[HungFist]

Bloody hell give it a chance guys. At least actually see the new cut before you dismiss it.

Why should we? Even if it was the best cut ever it doesn't make it any more original. We want to see Ashes of Time, not some new film created from the same footage.

Besides, we already know many of our favourite scenes have been removed.

It has also been reported that much of the music is gone. And everybody knows the original score is one of the best in any film from 90's.

I've never understood why people get so irate about changes/poor remastering jobs when the old version still exists. Yes it would be better to remaster both cuts but they haven't. The new DVD doesn't mean the old DVDs will suddenly evaporate.

As Shing already said the problem with this new cut is that it lowers the changes of ever getting a decent quality release of the original version.

Why don't you go back to Chungking Express and remove Faye Wong and Tony Leung, while you're at it?

What a ridiculous statement. WKW is on record saying Ashes of Time was not shot how he wanted it to be and on the cheap.

That alone makes it different from hacking up a film he's happy with and didn't have any production troubles to speak of.

Most directors are never satisfied with the movie they make, and always say that I would've done this and I would've done that if I could've.

[bradavon]

Why should we? Even if it was the best cut ever it doesn't make it any more original. We want to see Ashes of Time, not some new film created from the same footage.

So do I but it's not happening so I'll instead watch the new cut to see what it's like. Why should you? Because you've no idea if it's any good, that's why. At least see it before dismissing it off hand.

For all you know it may have new footage which is equally/nearly as equally as good.

Besides, we already know many of our favourite scenes have been removed.

It's worth remembering we've only read about it. We don't yet know what the finished product will look like.

It has also been reported that much of the music is gone. And everybody knows the original score is one of the best in any film from 90's.

Tom's original article pointed out it's not been changed much. See, who are supposed to believe? See it first, then dismiss it!

As Shing already said the problem with this new cut is that it lowers the changes of ever getting a decent quality release of the original version.

I'd agree except the chances of it happening anyway were next to nil. DVD has been out for a decade and all we still have is a handful of woeful DVDs. The truth is this is the only chance we ever had of seeing it at least "looking good".

Most directors are never satisfied with the movie they make, and always say that I would've done this and I would've done that if I could've.

That's entirely different. Most films are filmed in the conditions Ashes to Ashes was.

There are many examples where Director's have gone back to work and greatly improved them. Enough for me to be thankful they've been able to. I'd hate to be still stuck with the original Blade Runner Theatrical Cut.

Ultimately I never understood why people get so irate when a DVD release isn't how like it, as if that will remotely change things? Me thankful for what we have got than what we haven't. The number of cases where "fan noise" has caused a studio to change it's mind is minimal, comparatively speaking.

[HungFist]

Why should we? Even if it was the best cut ever it doesn't make it any more original. We want to see Ashes of Time, not some new film created from the same footage.

So do I but it's not happening so I'll instead watch the new cut to see what it's like. Why should you? Because you've no idea if it's any good, that's why. At least see it before dismissing it off hand.

For all you know it may have new footage which is equally/nearly as equally as good.

Even if it was as good, it’s still a diffent version. You don’t seem to understand that some people want to see films in their original form (because that’s one their main charms. A film made in 1994 should represent the filmmaking of 1994, not 2008. Movies are pieces of history, they are not meant to be updated).

Besides, we already know many of our favourite scenes have been removed.

It's worth remembering we've only read about it. We don't yet know what the finished product will look like.

That’s true, but when a person writes ”I have now seen the new version 3 times in Cannes” and gives a detailed explanation of differences, he usually knows what he’s talking about.

It has also been reported that much of the music is gone. And everybody knows the original score is one of the best in any film from 90's.

Tom's original article pointed out it's not been changed much. See, who are supposed to believe? See it first, then dismiss it!

This is ”someone who saw the new cut 3 times” vs ”I didn’t notice many differences”. Who are you gonna believe? Maybe no one, but usually people are not making up these things and claiming these scenes and this music has been removed when it actually isn’t.

There are many examples where Director's have gone back to work and greatly improved them. Enough for me to be thankful they've been able to. I'd hate to be still stuck with the original Blade Runner Theatrical Cut.

I don’t know what was the case with Ashes, but with Blade Runner Scott had a good reason as he the studio made notable changes to the movie he had already finished. Therefore the DC was needed. The Final Cut was waste of time of course. But generally, with today’s skill and technology any movie could be ”improved”. The world is full of directors that were not given enough money to realize their original vision, or who did not have the technology to make it happen. They all would like to fix their films afterwards.

The number of cases where "fan noise" has caused a studio to change it's mind is minimal, comparatively speaking.

How would you know that?

[Lourdes]

I've still never seen AoT and I can't find the Mei Ah DVD or even a rip from it. :/
I really want to see it now, I was always hoping it would be resoted straight up.

[tom2681]

AFAIK the Mei Ah is still available.
http://www.dddhouse.com/v3/product_deta ... ductID=187

It's not a good DVD, but quite watchable.
If you can stand VCD and VHS quality, you'll be fine.

If you want to taste before you buy, you can find many decent rips in all the good Torrent places.

[bradavon]

I've seen it on eBay too. It's definitely VCD type quality, the subs are VCD quality too. I imagine the UK VHS was better quality.

[Shingster]

Bloody hell give it a chance guys. At least actually see the new cut before you dismiss it.

I've never understood why people get so irate about changes/poor remastering jobs when the old version still exists. Yes it would be better to remaster both cuts but they haven't. The new DVD doesn't mean the old DVDs will suddenly evaporate.

I'm looking forward to WKW's new cut, but the original HK cut is one of my favourite HK films so naturally I also want this edit of the film to be available in a suitable form. How ironic that you argue that the available DVDs of Ashes of Time are unacceptably poor then tell us to be greatful for the releases we have! I own the Mei Ah DVD and can tolerate it no problems (something you admit you can't do), but obviously I would have liked a HD release or at the very least a remastered DVD release somewhere down the line. Now that WKW is championing a whole new edit of the film, this is much less likely to happen.

Every film fan has the right to wish for their favourite films in (half) decent quality on a relatively current format.

WKW is on record saying Ashes of Time was not shot how he wanted it to be and on the cheap.

Most of WKW's problems came with the editing of the film, it's well known that he had a very difficult time coming up with a final cut for Ashes of Time and eventually took a break from the whole process to go and make Chungking Express, and he eventually came back to Ashes refreshed.

[tom2681]

tom2681 wrote:

Wrong person, Shing.

[Shingster]

oops, sorry. Will edit that.

[bradavon]

You don’t seem to understand that some people want to see films in their original form

Of course I do. Assumption is the mother of all fuck ups, didn't you know?

Did you miss the part where I said I agreed we should getting both cuts remastered? You don't seem to understand you should actually watch a film before dismissing it. If you watch it with an open mind and then dislike it. Fine!

because that’s one their main charms. A film made in 1994 should represent the filmmaking of 1994, not 2008.

Again assumption is the mother of all fucks up. I only the other day was praising Dragons Forever for it's 80s look.

Movies are pieces of history, they are not meant to be updated

Well that as a blanket statement is utter bollocks, if there ever was one. I give my Blade Runner example again as a fine example of the film as released in 1982 being not in the same league as the film released in 1992 or that we have today in 2007.

Therefore the DC was needed. The Final Cut was waste of time of course.

Considering your previous comment that strikes me as mass hypocrisy, but there you go. Personally I think the Final Cut is the best cut of all of them but agreed the biggest changes happened with the Director's Cut.

The world is full of directors that were not given enough money to realize their original vision, or who did not have the technology to make it happen. They all would like to fix their films afterwards.

I come back to my original point that 6 months ago the HK DVD still existed and in 6 months time that disc in your cupboard will still be there. If you prefer it continue to watch it.

A remastered DVD was still very unlikely to ever come.

[bradavon]

How would you know that?

Because I (like you) have been browsing DVD forums for 5+ years.

Sony listened and re-released Fifth Element BD but the number of rant threads about Film X and DVD Y is significant. How many of them have been addressed? Not many, again comparatively speaking.

How ironic that you argue that the available DVDs of Ashes of Time are unacceptably poor then tell us to be greatful for the releases we have!

Fair point. I'll try and better explain myself. The existing DVD is unacceptably poor but dismissing the new cut without having even seen it won't suddenly mean the existing cut will get a re-release.

Not that "you" were saying that.

Now that WKW is championing a whole new edit of the film, this is much less likely to happen.

Agreed it is a shame but I don't honestly think we'd have ever seen one either way. They've had roughly a decade to get it right and nothing!

Every film fan has the right to wish for their favourite films in (half) decent quality on a relatively current format.

Agreed but people don't always know when to stop .

Most of WKW's problems came with the editing of the film.

Surely that adds weight to the footage being cut was in WKWs mind nothing more than deleted scenes but at the time he was unable to put together a suitable cut, no?

[Shingster]

Agreed it is a shame but I don't honestly think we'd have ever seen one either way. They've had roughly a decade to get it right and nothing!

A remastered or simply new DVD release would have eventually happened, and a HD release would almost certainly have been on the horizon. now it is up in the air.

Surely that adds weight to the footage being cut was in WKWs mind nothing more than deleted scenes but at the time he was unable to put together a suitable cut, no?

Well obviously this footage couldn't have been that clear in his mind at the time or else he would have made the same edits back then as he is doing now. The very fact that these differing edits of the film made it out there is proof enough that at the time WKW really didn't know what edit of the film he wanted!

[bradavon]

So the International cut is Director approved too? I didn't know that.

[Shingster]

I don't know if WKW ever approved the international cut, probably not. Saying that though the new redux version sounds much closer to the international cut than the HK cut, so make of that what you will.

[HungFist]

From what I recall Wong edited the international cut himself

Of course I do. Assumption is the mother of all fuck ups, didn't you know?

Did you miss the part where I said I agreed we should getting both cuts remastered? You don't seem to understand you should actually watch a film before dismissing it. If you watch it with an open mind and then dislike it. Fine!

Oh, this is ridiculous. Can’t you see your post makes no sense? You say ”of course I understand some people want to see the original cut and don’t care about new version”, and then two sentences later you say ”You don't seem to understand you should actually watch a film before dismissing it”. What happened to ”I understand some people don’t want to see new versions”?

I guess you just don’t understand that to some people Ashes of Time equals frame by frame to what was released in 1994. Any new cut is no longer the same movie.

Again assumption is the mother of all fucks up. I only the other day was praising Dragons Forever for it's 80s look.

What assumption? ”A film made in 1994 should represent the filmmaking of 1994, not 2008.”? That was no assumption, that was opinion.

Considering your previous comment that strikes me as mass hypocrisy, but there you go. Personally I think the Final Cut is the best cut of all of them but agreed the biggest changes happened with the Director's Cut.

As I just explained to you, the DC was okay as the studio had ruined the original film by changing the ending, adding a voice over etc. The DC restored the film back to its original form. It was created from the material that already existed, not from material that was created decades later.

Because I (like you) have been browsing DVD forums for 5+ years.

Brilliant logic, lol. You assume that every company screws up their first try automatically? How about all those companies that listened to fans and never fucked up in ther first place because of that? You think they publicly announce the reasons why they didn't fuck up?

[tom2681]

@Hungfist:
I believe you're right about the international cut of AoT.
Realizing that his film hadn't worked in Asia, he decided to remove all the fights (except the Tony Leung vs Horse Thieves fight) and release the movie without further changes.

It's kinda like Twister without the twisters, though. Utterly useless.

Based on what I've read so far, AoT Redux sounds like "2046 in the desert".
It's safe to assume that anyone who has seen and liked the original cut will be bitterly disappointed by the new edit.

[grim_tales]

What about those who havent seen it?
I do have it on VHS somewhere though.

[tom2681]

"What you don't know can't hurt you."
If you don't know what's missing, you might like Redux.

[grim_tales]

Fair enough then
I'll watch the VHS I have though as I've never seen the movie (yet).

[bradavon]

Can’t you see your post makes no sense? You say ”of course I understand some people want to see the original cut and don’t care about new version”, and then two sentences later you say ”You don't seem to understand you should actually watch a film before dismissing it”. What happened to ”I understand some people don’t want to see new versions”?

It makes perfect sense. They're two entirely different sentences .

I never said "don’t care about new version" though, that was you.

Any new cut is no longer the same movie.

You are on fire today .

What assumption? ”A film made in 1994 should represent the filmmaking of 1994, not 2008.”? That was no assumption, that was opinion.

You assumed I'm not agreeing with you, on the sentence quoted.

You assume that every company screws up their first try automatically?

There you go assuming things again .

How about all those companies that listened to fans and never fucked up in ther first place because of that?

There aren't many, most fans are so ridiculously nit picky. Any minor fault and the DVD has to be immediately written off as a complete and utter disaster.

[bradavon]

Realizing that his film hadn't worked in Asia, he decided to remove all the fights (except the Tony Leung vs Horse Thieves fight) and release the movie without further changes.

That is an odd move. The fights are often what draws the crowds, unless he wanted to make it more an arthouse than action film.

Based on what I've read so far, AoT Redux sounds like "2046 in the desert".

That sounds interesting. 2046 is excellent.

It's safe to assume that anyone who has seen and liked the original cut will be bitterly disappointed by the new edit.

Alas I've never been given the chance to see it in a watchable form. I honestly cannot give an opinion either way. I really struggled with the DVD so went away not particularly being impressed but that could easily be because of the DVD.

[bradavon]

What about those who havent seen it?
I do have it on VHS somewhere though.

Where is the VHS sourced from? I'm presuming TV so it should have decent subs and should be watchable. It maybe the international cut though!

If it's the HK cut and has decent subs I'd definitely give it a go.

[HungFist]

Can’t you see your post makes no sense? You say ”of course I understand some people want to see the original cut and don’t care about new version”, and then two sentences later you say ”You don't seem to understand you should actually watch a film before dismissing it”. What happened to ”I understand some people don’t want to see new versions”?

It makes perfect sense. They're two entirely different sentences .

How is it possible that you understand that I don't like the new version, yet you think I should give a chance and see if I like it (although you know I don't like it)?

I never said "don’t care about new version" though, that was you.

I never said you said. I said.

How about all those companies that listened to fans and never fucked up in ther first place because of that?

There aren't many, most fans are so ridiculously nit picky. Any minor fault and the DVD has to be immediately written off as a complete and utter disaster.

It's mostly a problem with HK films. Japanese cult films receive perfect dvds all the time. Discotek even went to Japan to get a commentary from the pinky violence book author J Taro Sugisaku. That was after fans had been complaining about the dry Chris D commentaries on Panik House dvds and said that US companies should get japanese experts to do the commentaries... Fans also said they should try to get interviews with the film makers... and what happens? Not only Discotek announces interviews, but also Exploitation Digital includes a Norifumi Suzuki interview on their dvd.

Just one example. Another would be Media Blasters who said that they would make sure their SB dvds have the correct audio as they've heard fans complaining about the existing dvds.

But as I said, usually companies don't announce why they didn't fuck up. It's also been stated by many people who work in the dvd business (spannick, linn...) that many dvd companies don't have a clue what they're doing. They may for example release a 2.35:1 film in 1.85 without ever even realizing it's not the correct aspect ratio.

It even happens to studios that are supposed to know their shit. From what I recall, HK Video released Duel to the Death cut because they didn't know their master was cut. They later replaced the dvd with an uncut version, I believe.

Joy Sales, although they've screwed up most of their releases (although that's apparently because of Fortune Star... they simply can't get proper materials from them) also has listened to fans. The non remastered dvds have original posters as covers because fans requested it. They also started including mandarin mono tracks with their dvds after some people complained about it. The longer cut of Bullet in the Head was released after Muldoon at ADVDG managed to convince Joy Sales that it may exist and they should look for it although Fortune Star was claiming they don't have it.

[bradavon]

I didn't say we never get perfect DVDs, just that forums are full of disgruntled customers .

From what I recall, HK Video released Duel to the Death cut because they didn't know their master was cut. They later replaced the dvd with an uncut version, I believe.

At least they corrected their mistake.

The longer cut of Bullet in the Head was released after Muldoon at ADVDG managed to convince Joy Sales that it may exist and they should look for it although Fortune Star was claiming they don't have it.

I didn't know that, that's pretty cool.

What DVD is that?