September 11th Aftermath - Poll inside...

[Yi-Long]

They shouldn't be tortured then under ANY cicumstances. Prisoners also cannot held without trial like in Guantanamo Bay and Abu Graib (sp?) - thats just wrong.

I totally agree. The USA is guilty of massive warcrimes in QB.

Bin Laden is a sweet and nice guy in private?! I hope Yi was joking, I hear Hitler and Pol Pot were lovely guys to their mums as well.

Bush may be a coward, ignorant and as thick as pigshit, but he's not a tyrant.

Actually, i was serious with what I said: I think I could have a much more sophisticated conversation with Bin Laden then with Dubya.
By pretty much most accounts of everyone who has met OBL, including westerners (press), he's a very nice, soft-spoken and smart guy.

That does not mean I dont think he's evil. clearly he is, as he has intentionally made innocent victims, and thus is a bad man.

However, I WOULD call Bush a tyrant. His administration has repeatedly lied and abused their powers, and the numbers of innocent victims are well into the tens and maybe hundreds of thousands. I have absolutely no doubts that a large amount of those victims werent necesarry, and could have been avoided. Yet the Bush admin. chose to wage wars, and seeing where the profits are going (straight into bush's and his friend's pockets) you could at least have questions about his motives.

By most accounts of people who lived/worked near the president (and who are independent from him), the guy isnt the smartest guy around, and I also dont trust him.
Plain and simple, the guy is an idiot... so yeah, I would always choose to have a conversation with a smart guy that I dont agree with, as opposed to having a conversation with a dumbass that I dont agree with.

In my mind, both have done evil. I wouldnt consider BL a bigger threat to world peace, then Bush.

[grim_tales]

Speaking of dumbasses, did you know Dick Cheney's friend was accidentally shot by Cheney when he was out hunting? They were shooting quail or something like that.
OK it was an accident, but you can't just give anybody a gun.

[Yi-Long]

Speaking of dumbasses, did you know Dick Cheney's friend was accidentally shot by Cheney when he was out hunting? They were shooting quail or something like that.
OK it was an accident, but you can't just give anybody a gun.

I think Cheney should take his good friend Dubya out hunting

I laughed when I heard the news. Seriously, the victim is a hunter (bastards) plus a friend of Cheney, so I for one am not going to feel sorry for him

"it's coming right for us!!!"

[romerojpg]

Ohh I am sure the hundreds of thousands of people in Iraq tortured by their own government love it at least america hasnt set up torture camps and death squads, you can say what you want about americans, but compared to the government over there, America is a soft bunch of girls.

and yes people should be tortured for information if they have enuff reason to do so, at least american tortureres dont kill them and their families once done, or even entire villages! Your now forgetting who are the bad people are as usual.

[Yi-Long]

Ohh I am sure the hundreds of thousands of people in Iraq tortured by their own government love it at least america hasnt set up torture camps and death squads, you can say what you want about americans, but compared to the government over there, America is a soft bunch of girls.

and yes people should be tortured for information if they have enuff reason to do so, at least american tortureres dont kill them and their families once done, or even entire villages! Your now forgetting who are the bad people are as usual.

Really? Where did I ever say that Saddam was a sweet guy? Or that Osama is a saint!?

Maybe there arent hundreds of thousands (ehmm...!?) being tortured in the USA, but there are thousands each year that get locked up without having had a fair trial cause they couldnt afford a lawyer, or who have made 3 misdemeaners and get locked up for 20 years orso.

Just because I think America is abusing it's power and is guilty of warcrimes, doesnt mean I am taking sides with Saddam or whatever. Clearly saddam is a bad guy and it's only right that he gets punished. But there would have been better ways to do this, instead of bombing the whole country to shit, and inviting terrorists in.

Never mind the fact that with the money now wasted by the USA on this war, they could have saved hundreds of thousands of lives if they had invested it in other countries.

[romerojpg]

I think you will find yes its hundreds of thousands of people tortured (in fact loads more surley), or interogated as Sadame said. Just think of how many died over the years, millions!

We (the UK ) are still over there, and if we pull out we will be bad mouthed for leaving and they will probibly still kill civilians and bomb us in the UK, if we stay we will be killed as they are being wiped out daily! its a loose, loose situation.

Personally I say UK soldiers should get out and let them kill each other as its a pointless unwinable situation at the moment and a total waste of time and emense amounts of wasted cash really. They see a soldier and they want to spit on them or throw stones or worse kill them, so they do.

Thing is the footage of UK soldiers beating little pricks on our TV right now I think is nasty, but beat the hell out of them I say if they were from that crowd of scum who were trying to kill the soldiers with anything at hand.

Problem it is wrong yes, but I would want to kick the shit out of some little dick who just tried to kill me by pelting me with bricks, stones bottles and anything else they could grab. They got off lightly I say, as they should have been shot really, but then they would be martres ( or however you spell that saddo word). What did the rioters think would happen? they deserved a beating thats for sure, as I would if I ever pelted people with anything at hand. If the soldeirs started throwing stones at crowds of Iraq police then they would deserve the same and the police should get stuck in and beat the UK soliders to shit.

Basically dont thow shit and you wont get it back.

[Markgway]

But of many of these tortured guys we arent even sure if they are terrorists, let alone if they have ANY direct connections to Bin Laden.

I realise that... which is why torture should only be applied in circumstances where it is deemed absolutely necessary and not randomly. If the troops arrested the correct people in the first place we wouldn't have to spend so much time worrying about who is innocent and who is guilty? Random arrests are useless, only serve to make the indiginous hate the west more. But if you arrest someone and they've got a rocket launcher and how to kill soldiers manual in their bedroom... the evidence would point to their guilt wouldn't it? People like that I have no problem being strung up by the balls.

[Yi-Long]

But of many of these tortured guys we arent even sure if they are terrorists, let alone if they have ANY direct connections to Bin Laden.

I realise that... which is why torture should only be applied in circumstances where it is deemed absolutely necessary and not randomly. If the troops arrested the correct people in the first place we wouldn't have to spend so much time worrying about who is innocent and who is guilty? Random arrests are useless, only serve to make the indiginous hate the west more. But if you arrest someone and they've got a rocket launcher and how to kill soldiers manual in their bedroom... the evidence would point to their guilt wouldn't it? People like that I have no problem being strung up by the balls.

I'd still like assholes like that to have a fair trial. Perhaps it was a peasant who was forced by terrorists to provide his house as a base where they could hide some weapons and shit!? Like 'we' did in WW2: we also went into people's houses, eat and slept there, and used those houses as a base.

Don't get me wrong, Assholes deserve to be shot, but if you keep denying them fair trials, and just kick them all in the head and abuse your power, others will think 'we' are the evil one, and get sympathies for the terrorists that are hunted by the 'evil' western forces (if you get what I'm saying)
We want peace and freedom: Good... so lets also set an example how to be humane and honest. Iraqi people will watch the news and see 3 young Iraqi boys getting the shit beat out of them and soldiers ENJOYING it. No matter what the boys have done (and I'm sure they deserve a nice kick in the behind), that image of western soldiers enjoying beating up kids, is too powerfull and harmfull.

I dont believe torture works, at least not in most of these cases, as most/all of the people that have been imprisoned, have absolutely no direct relations to Osama whatsoever. So what can they possibly tell ya?

[Markgway]

I'd still like assholes like that to have a fair trial.

War isn't fair. War is by its very nature evil. And if it takes bypassing civil proceedure to save lives; that's what must be done. You can't try every suspect you arrest, and even if you could it would be too late for many.

Perhaps it was a peasant who was forced by terrorists to provide his house as a base where they could hide some weapons and shit!?

Then would the suspect not reveal this under questioning? Give useful information to the authorities.

Don't get me wrong, Assholes deserve to be shot, but if you keep denying them fair trials, and just kick them all in the head and abuse your power, others will think 'we' are the evil one, and get sympathies for the terrorists that are hunted by the 'evil' western forces (if you get what I'm saying)

I do see what you're saying... but to me its more important to save lives than have terrorists or terrorist sympathisers think kindly of us. I'm not saying torture should be routine; only in circumstances where lives are on the line. If the suspect presents no immediate danger either by person or by connection then by all means put them on trial. But torture can ellicit information that will ultimately save lives. To me that's more important than anything.

We want peace and freedom: Good... so lets also set an example how to be humane and honest.

Idealistic, but naive. You act humane, they think it's weak; you're honest, they exploit it. Very difficult situation and all too easy for us armchair generals to judge what soldiers do when the next bullet could have their name on it.

Iraqi people will watch the news and see 3 young Iraqi boys getting the shit beat out of them and soldiers ENJOYING it. No matter what the boys have done (and I'm sure they deserve a nice kick in the behind), that image of western soldiers enjoying beating up kids, is too powerfull and harmfull.

Well, the uncut video shows the Iraqis taunting the soldiers and throwing missiles. Some sources elected only to show the later beatings.

I dont believe torture works, at least not in most of these cases, as most/all of the people that have been imprisoned, have absolutely no direct relations to Osama whatsoever. So what can they possibly tell ya?

Terrorism is based on networks. No one acts alone. Someone knows someone who knows someone who knows Bin Laden. It's a domino effect... Everytime you capture a suspect (who IS guilty) you get access to another name or names, times or places. You build up a bigger picture.

[grim_tales]

I noticed the NOTW video had been edited too, Mark. It only shows the part where the Iraqis were beaten. But before that a mortar is fired, and then there's a running/taunting crowd I think (to music from Wagners Ring Cycle) which puts the whole thing into context. The last time a video was released which appeared to show the Iraqis being beaten by our soldiers, it turned out to be fake....
BTW back to the US in WW2, they may have been "selfish" in joining but that doesnt mean we shouldn't be grateful.

[romerojpg]

Yup the people who released the "PROTESTOR" Beating video, should be locked the hell up and beaten!!!! they are UK paper for hells sake!!!!! they neglected to release the beginning of the footage where they are basically blowing up the baracks!!!!! way to go morons, thats some of the worst reporting ever!
They lied for days saying we checked this footage over to see if it was real, yes its real but you edited it you muppets! If that newspaper isnt brought up on charges and people are locked up, it shows you how much of a joke the justice system is! they willfully released false information which has probibly tained the UK troops even more WAY TO GO!

The people in that video from the footage deserved to be shot in the face now I have seen the rest of the footage.

[Markgway]

It's irresponsible journalism (ha!) that puts the lives of our troops in danger.

Gutter press makes me sick sometimes.

[grim_tales]

They were still shown beating the troops, which is wrong but the NOTW video makes it seem like they said "Hey, lets go beat up defenceless people" when it wasnt like that
Reminds me of The Running Man where footage is doctored to make Arnie look like he's a bad guy who'll kill innocents.

[Markgway]

Exactly.

"The Running Man": Fantasy action or ahead-of-its-time satire?

[romerojpg]

Its a joke! have you seen whats happen now because of the Doctored footage!!!!!
Iraq has ceased all communication with the UK, all because of that footage! that means we are in deep shit and its only going to get worse. The Mirro (I think thats the paper who found this footage and edited it!) need shutting down for this one, they have risked thousands of lives but I bet you shit all is done about this, the damage is done and its sickening they can get away with this.

Anyone who Protests with bombs, well if anyone has pity for them being beaten up then your really stupid. The Iraq news has latched onto the edited footage and really I can see some major comeback from this, as now they wouldnt belebve a word it was doctored anyway as they are a culture and people based on what they are told, hence ignorance is everywhere over there when the news is ran by the frankly corrupt people.

[grim_tales]

Exactly.

"The Running Man": Fantasy action or ahead-of-its-time satire?

Probably a bit of both..

[grim_tales]

Boycott NOTW. Don't buy the fecking paper.

[romerojpg]

So it is News of the World? jesus thats a joke! why the hell the news isnt getting stuck into that paper and letting them get all the flack is beyond me! I havent heard any statements on tv saying TNOTW was wrong or anything like it.

[grim_tales]

Thats where the video is from I'm sure.

[romerojpg]

Looks like they will get away with causing tensof millions of pounds worth of damage (probibly hundreds of millions) and maybe many deaths all becuase of that edited video.

[Yi-Long]

Did you guys hear? New videos and pictures have emerged from 2003/2004, where we see more turture and even manslaughter.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/4716280.stm

The BBC didnt publish all of them, for fear of them being to gruesome

Also, a US sergeant or korporal has told congress that CHILDREN of Iraqi prisoners were brought in AND TORTURED, to get confessions out of their dads (and in some cases moms)

[Markgway]

Also, a US sergeant or korporal has told congress that CHILDREN of Iraqi prisoners were brought in AND TORTURED, to get confessions out of their dads (and in some cases moms)

My God, that's fucked up. Is this Corporal's evidence reliable? I mean, beating up a suspect is bad enough, but their children? Are we talking young kids here too?

[grim_tales]

Thats' messed up

[Markgway]

Grim offers the PG version of my post.

Like one of those American TV dubs.

[grim_tales]

LOL I could say "Thats fucked up" if you want. I dont feel the need to swear all the time