London under terrorist attack...

[Yi-Long]

.(out of place, 2012 olympic related joke: 'God, those french really take it bad...(!))

Jesus Christ... have you no fucking sense of decency? That's the most tasteless joke I've come across in a long while... and whilst people are STILL DYING. Honestly I sometimes think this forum is populated by utter morons.

I know, that's why I said it. When the news first broke, and I followed the story pretty much from the beginning, some people in the news were trying to maybe find a connection with the day before, where the olympics went to London instead of Paris...

So, knowing full well that this is most probably Al Qaida, and then hearing people talk about the Olympic announcement, and how maybe it was connected (yeah sure!), it was an obvious (yet a bit out of place) jioke to make. Not to make fun of the deaths ofcourse, but more about what was going on in the media at that hours... which I found ridiculous.

I thought the sarcasm was clear but I guess if you werent aware of those media-guessing, you might not catch the link-up, thus the joke...

So, sorry if I offended anyone, certainly didnt mean to, but I also think the joke got misunderstood by some, and some people also don't enjoy a joke at times like this, which is ofcourse understandable.

Anyway, it's nice to see everyone in London picking up their usual lifes again today, without fear and without giving the cowardly bastards what they want... which would be panic, or fear, or whatever.

[romerojpg]

Well my 1st thought was it was the Olmpics as really france lost out on as Muliti Billion pound deals, maybe as much as 30 Billion!!!!!!!!!! and thats the sort of thing that could easily make people do this. Its more than likley terrorists, but still Billions of pounds is insentive to do it in some strange way.

[Markgway]

I wasn't aware of any attempt to connect the French to this blatant terrorist outrage and anyone doing so - in the media or otherwise - should consider completion of their botched labotomy.

[BiscLimpkit]

Supposedly 49 people confirmed dead but this figure is likely to rise. However the BBC say that the final number will be less than 100.

13 People died on the bus accident.

[brassmonkey001]

When the joke was made yesterday the conversation literally was this: "Apparently a bombs gone off in London." "P'raps it's the French", not: "There's been a terrorist attack in London with a number of bombs on the underground, X amount killed, Y amount seriously injured" "P'raps it's the French" - that would truly be sick. It's just an off the cuff reaction to a tiny snippet of news. I'm sure the lads feel awful now they realise the true extent of the tragedy so don't be painting everyone with the callous brush.
And I'm sure that no-one is suggesting that the French had anything to do with it, but it is reasonable to wonder if there is a connection with the Olympic decision. Perhaps if Paris had won the bid we might be reading about bombs on the Metro.

[tom2681]

no-one is suggesting that the French had anything to do with it

Nah, I don't think it was us. We're mad at London for winning, but we're not THAT mad.

But it is reasonable to wonder if there is a connection with the Olympic decision.

Maybe. But that would mean that the terrorists had people stationed in every city susceptible to win the Olympics Race. That's scary.

Perhaps if Paris had won the bid we might be reading about bombs on the Metro.

They should have blown up the Eiffel Tower. Stupid rusty tower that costs so much to repaint every year.

[romerojpg]

I said it was the Olympics, not the French a very different thing.
Your saying people would not kill over Billions! then your insane yourself! people kill over hundreds of pounds, never mind Billions.

But I am sure it wont be anything to do with the Olympics, but its a better theory than they have now.

[grim_tales]

The few "I told you so's" I've read (not here on this forum) relating to this make me really angry - who say things like "oh well, thats what we get for going into Iraq so its' our own fault" or something like that.
That sounds very cold-hearted to me.

[romerojpg]

There is a lot of total wankers out there who are throwing this card into play!

I saw some evil muslim twats on TV (these are evil, not all remember!) saying kill more people like that should be hung! they live in the UK at least treat the place and people with some respect!

If I went over to there country and said such things I would be killed pretty quickly, the police didnt even do anything against these pricks! they were insighting riots shouting kill more Americans and British! well piss off somewhere else you dicks and die in pain.

I am no racist, but really anyone saying its a good thing a bunch of defenceless innocent people killed by some tossers with a religious hard on is beyond me and gives everyone a bad name!

I think the law should be changed very quickly in the Uk and people inciting race hate against any people like this, have to be locked up or told to get out now!

That scumbag with the Hook for a hand got away with it for a long time, so I expect bugger all to be done by our government, as no matter what they do to them they will come under flack from anyone of the religious groups who hate us. yet live here

[Yi-Long]

The few "I told you so's" I've read (not here on this forum) relating to this make me really angry - who say things like "oh well, thats what we get for going into Iraq so its' our own fault" or something like that.
That sounds very cold-hearted to me.

Not really 'fault', but you ARE in a war, and in a war there will be (innocent) casualties. So yeah, don't be surprised when that comes right back at ya...
America has done some horrible stuff, and the UK has been alongside them and supporting them each and every step of the way, so ofcourse mulsim-extremists are going to target the UK. I don't agree with all this ofcourse, but I CAN understand why the terrorists would hit London (or even Amsterdam or whatever, since Holland has been licking Bush's balls as well... )

[grim_tales]

If we're paying for Iraq, then why was Bali targeted before (which had nothing to do with Iraq)?

[romerojpg]

Because mulsim-extremists are thick as pig shit inbred wankers who are NOT going to Heaven and most probibly dont even like the religion, it just an excuse to kill people a bit like the IRA, it just gives tossers some meaning behiund there mindless moronic acts.

I just hope all of them die slow and in pain and everyone who suports them dies too, very soon in agony.

[Markgway]

Not really 'fault', but you ARE in a war, and in a war there will be (innocent) casualties. So yeah, don't be surprised when that comes right back at ya...

Not my War. I never got to choose whether troops were sent to Iraq. No blood on my hands. So why should I be in danger of losing my life? These Islamic terrorists purposely choose targets to maximise the loss of human life. They know exactly what they're doing. They don't target soldiers, government buildings and institutions - not that this would be excusable either - but buses and trains, where expressly innocent casualties will be massive. These extremists are racist, evil, murdering bastards. Fact. And I don't care if Tony Blair personally popped a grenade into their houses (it's worth noting at this point that the suicide bombers were "British") that's no excuse for mindless revenge against a mass of people who had NOTHING TO FUCKING DO WITH IT!!! I know you hate America Yi-Long, but your excuse-making for terrorists is extremely tired and increasingly offensive.

[Yi-Long]

Not really 'fault', but you ARE in a war, and in a war there will be (innocent) casualties. So yeah, don't be surprised when that comes right back at ya...

Not my War. I never got to choose whether troops were sent to Iraq. No blood on my hands. So why should I be in danger of losing my life? These Islamic terrorists purposely choose targets to maximise the loss of human life. They know exactly what they're doing. They don't target soldiers, government buildings and institutions - not that this would be excusable either - but buses and trains, where expressly innocent casualties will be massive. These extremists are racist, evil, murdering bastards. Fact. And I don't care if Tony Blair personally popped a grenade into their houses (it's worth noting at this point that the suicide bombers were "British") that's no excuse for mindless revenge against a mass of people who had NOTHING TO FUCKING DO WITH IT!!! I know you hate America Yi-Long, but your excuse-making for terrorists is extremely tired and increasingly offensive.

I aint making any excuses for terrorisme. I just explain that when your goverment is fighting an unjust war, you can't expect no-one to respond. Hell, even if it were a JUST war, someone would respond. That's not saying I agree with terrorism.

What is this? Mis-understand Yi-week!?

I'm not making any excuses for terrorisme, nor have I done so in the past. I am ALWAYS against innocent people getting hurt. But I DO understand why terrorisme happens. Maybe it's time to learn the difference between those two things, Mark!?

And I don't hate America. I hate the way the American goverment abuses it's power. Which are 2 seperate things. Again, try and understand the difference.

This ain't a case of black and white, or good and bad, or right and wrond... etc. There can be 2 bad's or maybe 3 bad's, or multiple shades of gray, and maybe all parties are right, or maybe we;re all wrong, or we're all half-right etc etc... whatever...

[grim_tales]

I agree with Mark on that one. The coalition never intended to specifically target innocent civilians, as Mark said (rightly or wrongly), they target buildings or Government institutions. There is (IMO) no excuse for what happened last Thursday.
And my original question still stands. The people of Bali had nothing to do with Iraq either. What the bombers did there was cowardly and evil also.

[Mordib]

Not my War. I never got to choose whether troops were sent to Iraq. No blood on my hands.

this is a common attitude which I love because it vindicates many of my rants about how flawed democracy is. The whole point of democracy is that everyone gets a say and the majority get their way. the key to a successful democracy is those who on a particular occasion dont get their way still abide by the majorities decision whether they agree with it or not. this is necessary so that if the same people do get their way at some point then they can reasonably expect that those that disagree will go along with it becasue it is the will of the democracy.

Since not every issue can be voted on by everybody we have created the party/polotics system, so that the few are elected by the many to represent their views. These people inevitably go on to make decisions that not all of the people who voted for them agree with, peoples opinions are just too varied for it to be any other way. None the less it is still part of the democratic system we embrace and as such we cannot be part of the system yet pick and choose times when to distance ourselves from the decisions that are made, if we do it makes the whole point of democracy totally meaningless.

So the atitude that it wasnt our choice it was the polititians fault doesnt hold water because this system of government we claim everyone should want and have dictates that we are collectively responsable for all decisions that are made on a national and international level by our governments. I personally claim that it was not my war and I shouldnt be punished for it, I don't however make any claims to taking part or believing in the value of the democratic system, mankind is simply incapable of abiding by such a system as we simply cannot handle the idea that right and wrong have nothing to do with how decisions are made in such a system.


rant over...

actually I have another one.... the concept of civilised war.

we like the idea of civilised war where only military are targeted, rules and principles on decent behaviour are recognised and respected. It's all the British' fault really as theyre the ones that spread the idea during their colonial days. We find it disgusting that the enemy should purposely target civilians, that they should resort to gorrilla warfare rather than open warfare and so forth. we dont understand why our enemies repeatedly use these tactics. But the answer to all this is painfully obvious, an enemies aim is to defeat us or damage us as much as possible. they cannot do this using traditional warfare as between us and the US and Europe we have a much greater fighting force than they could ever hope to beat. In the end the only tactics which are even vaguely successful are the ones that we count as below the belt.

We in the west have created ourselves a very high set of moral values by which we conduct ourself, and we assume that these are magic values that everyone in the entire world should have inherantly. The simple truth is we are not born with these values and rights, we are afforded them by the society /environment in which we grow up. The day we accept that our values are our own and noone elses unless we force them upon them is the the day when we can finally start moving forward and actually doing some good in the world.

the end

m.

[Markgway]

I aint making any excuses for terrorisme. I just explain that when your goverment is fighting an unjust war, you can't expect no-one to respond.

By deliberately murdering innocents? No, sorry I don't expect that. But maybe that's because I'm not a savage bastard obsessed with death? If a Muslim murdered one of my friends, would it be expected that I plant a bomb in a Mosque as revenge? Just wondering???

But I DO understand why terrorisme happens. Maybe it's time to learn the difference between those two things, Mark!?

Unlike you I don't understand terrorism - and unlike you nor do I care to. You can't as an intelligent, decent person try to get into the mindset of these killers, nor should you want to, unless you're a an anti-terrorist officer who HAS to do these things for public safety. I understand revenge. I understand pain. I understand hate. What I don't understand is indescriminate slaughter of communters who have nothing to do with anything that goes on in Iraq. And frankly I never will.

And I don't hate America. I hate the way the American goverment abuses it's power. Which are 2 seperate things. Again, try and understand the difference.

I may have bought that at one point... but anti-American, sorry Yankee, sentiment is evident in so many of your posts. Any opportunity to criticise or demonise Americans does not go untaken - or unnoticed. Like the terrorists you seem to equate the government with its people, forgetting that 49% DIDN'T vote for Bush, and probably significantly more are against the war, but voted for Bush for other reasons or they feel misguidedly that he is the best protector from backlash.

This ain't a case of black and white, or good and bad, or right and wrond... etc.

Yeah, it sometimes is...

[Markgway]

this is a common attitude which I love because it vindicates many of my rants about how flawed democracy is.

Democracy isn't a perfect system. Far from it. But it's the best we've got and the only one that could possibly work in the Western world. As it stands too much power is given to, taken and abused by politicians. There was no referdendum on the War. One man decided because his nose was stuck up a Bush. He persauded the rest of his Donkey's, I mean MPs, to follow suit, and 60million sat back in horror. Protest marches and stong opposition did nothing to reverse the tide. And you're going to tell me that this is my/our fault??? This isn't about democracy really. It's a smokescreen used as a means of aportioning blame on the British civilians who lost their lives in bomb blasts. Victims, but yeah, it's kind their own fault for being British, right??? Rant over. No wink required.

we like the idea of civilised war where only military are targeted, rules and principles on decent behaviour are recognised and respected. It's all the British' fault really as theyre the ones that spread the idea during their colonial days.

I never like the idea of any War. Nor do most, but I think there's a helluva lot to be said for trying to minimise casualties during one, no? Seems strange that Britain should be sneered at by one of its own for lofty morals that actually want to play as fair as it possibly can. Of course, that doesn't always happen. Misjudgements are made, mistakes too, but the idea is right. That's why the idea of dropping H-bombs is so abhorant to us, as it incurrs a maximum of human casualty. I'm sure these Islamic extremists just wish they had one.

we dont understand why our enemies repeatedly use these tactics. But the answer to all this is painfully obvious, an enemies aim is to defeat us or damage us as much as possible.

I don't think that'll come as a surprise to, well, anyone. Britain naively believes that its enemy is as fair and moral as it is. But that's not the case. These terrorists have no morals, no code, no respect and no shread of human decency. The more dead the better. If innocents - BETTER YET!! That's so polarised to our way of thinking isn't it? Are you suggesting that Britain is wrong to have respect for human life? If the intent in Iraq was to maximise civilian casualties would that be understandable? After all: it is 21st century war. New rules, new goals.

We in the west have created ourselves a very high set of moral values by which we conduct ourself, and we assume that these are magic values that everyone in the entire world should have inherantly. The simple truth is we are not born with these values and rights, we are afforded them by the society /environment in which we grow up. The day we accept that our values are our own and noone elses unless we force them upon them is the the day when we can finally start moving forward and actually doing some good in the world.

You've completely lost me at the end there I'm afraid... From "the day we accept". Could you please explain how Britain is at fault for expecting human standards and decency around the world? Are we to just accept that non-Brits are a bunch of savage foreigners who should all be deported? Democracy is our political system and does not dictate our morality. The two issues are seperate. You make it sound as though Britain is wrong for developing such a progressive society. I think the West should leave the Middle East alone entirely. If they want democracy they can get it themselves. If not, then fine. But is too much to ask any country regardless of religion not to perpetrate or support acts of evil? Is that beyond the means of Muslims and we should expect them to be of lesser moral fibre that "Brits"? And before someone jumps on the idea that I'm saying Muslims aren't British as some kind of insult, don't; because those are not my words, but the words of Muslims, for whom religious identity comes first, second and third. If they do indeed in anyway consider themselves British, then it's a mere technicality of birth. But not something worth clinging to. Not like Allah. Does this represent the majority of British-born Muslims? Who knows? But it's hardly something I'm making up now is it? To return form digression: How do you suggest Britain deals with its enemies? Deals with the terrorists? Execution? Suicide bombings, perhaps? That's what they would do. Should we fight the same immoral, cold-blooded war as they? Or would that be terribly unbritish, old chap?

[Yi-Long]

Mark. how many bombs do you think 'we' have lobbed on the heads of innocent Afghanis and Iraqis!? I DO NOT approve of killing innocent people, anywhere in the world (DUH!... but just to be very very clear cause you seem to have a problem understanding this) , but what other means do these 'people' (extremists) have to fight against us? You really think they are gonna fight 'fair' cause we PRETEND we do!? They have some 20 year old Russian weapons, and we have all the most advanced fighting choppers and bombing-jets and long-distance missile etc etc. If they wanna have ANY chance of winning this, they MUST fight dirt. Yeah it ain't nice and civil, but neither is cowardly lobbing long-distance rockets at 'an area where we SUSPECT could be terrorist activity'.

About being anti-american. I usually only express those feelings when it's about them messing up DVD's and movies etc (and I also critisize anyone else doing that, be it HKL, dutch dvd companies, or R4 etc etc.) or when we're discussing world-politics...

You say 49% of the americans DIDN'T vote for Bush: I know. That still means there's about 50% of people that DID vote for that idiot. Many MANY americans are religious idiots, still condemning gays and abortion etc etc. Hell, I'm sure many Bush-voters would love a come back of segregation. I don't mind people being religious, but when it affects (in a bad way) OTHER people's lifes, it's wrong.

I might seem anti-american to you... perhaps I am. I know there are millions of great, lovely sweet americans. I also know there are A LOT of idiots there...
I'm sure it's a great place to live if you're not out of a job yet...

However, since we mostly discuss the troubles in the world, and movies, ofcourse I'll voice my discontent about the USA-way of doing things. Be it dumbing down movies so all the hicks can 'get it', or about their political leaders continually linking Saddam to what happened on 9/11.

Terrorisme MUST be stopped. But our goverments are doing it the wrong way. Instead of taking away the basis of hate, we actually increase their hate against the west. It's like slapping a guy repeatedly in the face while shouting at him : 'Stop hating us you fucking worthless wanker!!!'
That's not going to work very well, is it!?

There are so many other things we can use to get rid of terrorisme, like working closely together with the goverments who have terrorists among them, build a good relationship, and get them on our side, against the terrorists.

[ICE-angel]

...

[Markgway]

Mark. how many bombs do you think 'we' have lobbed on the heads of innocent Afghanis and Iraqis!?

None. But "our" governments? Far too many. I seriously doubt, however, the intent was to cause death of innocent civilians, even though that proved to be the deeply unfortunate result. On the news yesterday Iraqi insurgants murdered countless children in an attempt to bomb coalition soldiers. The difference? The bomber knew the children were there and detonated anyway. Would the British have done the same (ie. bomb a house full of children on purpose?) No they wouldn't, and if they did then they would bring shame to my country.

I DO NOT approve of killing innocent people, anywhere in the world (DUH!... but just to be very very clear cause you seem to have a problem understanding this)

No, I get it alright. You're not a psycho. I know. I just don't appreciate your "ability" to understand the motives of terrorism. It's something I can't and won't do. That's what makes us different. You CARE what they think and feel. I just want them dead.

but what other means do these 'people' (extremists) have to fight against us? You really think they are gonna fight 'fair' cause we PRETEND we do!?

How can I put this? I know WHY they use these tactics. I just don't understand HOW they could bring themselves to do so. If I wanted to kill Muslims I could strab on a bomb and walk into a Mosque. But that's something I couldn't do - kill innocents. No matter my cause or grieveance. Nothing justifies terrorism. It's worth pointing out that the London bombers were all British-born - raised and nurtured by a country it so vehemently turned against.

Yeah it ain't nice and civil, but neither is cowardly lobbing long-distance rockets at 'an area where we SUSPECT could be terrorist activity'.

War isn't civil in reality. The notion of civility is an illusion. What I'm talking about here is intent. When Britain kills innocents in war it's not the direct purpose. Hell, you get soldiers shooting each other in so-called "friendly-fire". Humans makes mistakes, errors of judgement, and sometimes innocent people on both sides suffer. What these terrorists do is calculated to the nth degree and is no mistake. Innocent deaths is the goal.

About being anti-american. I usually only express those feelings when it's about them messing up DVD's and movies etc (and I also critisize anyone else doing that, be it HKL, dutch dvd companies, or R4 etc etc.) or when we're discussing world-politics...

Well, if you say you don't have a problem with Americans in general I won't call you out on it... but it just seems to me (and others) that your criticizism is disproportinate. You started MANY threads about American abuses, but not one about American sufferings. Intentional or not it comes across as biased.

You say 49% of the americans DIDN'T vote for Bush: I know. That still means there's about 50% of people that DID vote for that idiot. Many MANY americans are religious idiots, still condemning gays and abortion etc etc. Hell, I'm sure many Bush-voters would love a come back of segregation. I don't mind people being religious, but when it affects (in a bad way) OTHER people's lifes, it's wrong.

Can't argue with that. My point was that 49% still counts for over 100 million people who feel disenfranchised from what their country is doing and the direction it runs in. I feel the same about Labour in the UK. I voted minority to make a point. But Labour still won. I wonder what happened to all those millions of marchers and protestors come polling day? I can't be blamed for what Tony Blair did. Why should I now be at risk from terrorists because of him?

Terrorisme MUST be stopped. But our goverments are doing it the wrong way. Instead of taking away the basis of hate, we actually increase their hate against the west.

That makes sense up to a point. But how do you negotiate with people who don't want to talk but only spill blood? It could be argued that many of these terrorists are using the war in Iraq as an excuse to further their racist, anti-western holy war. 9/11 was before Iraq. OK, so that was Palestine. But if it wasn't one of those, would it be something else? Anything else as justification? To me the only solution really is for western powers to get the fuck out of the Middle East and leave them to it. But, decades of medalling has left the region unstable, so how can they leave? Each time they interfere it gets worse... but they can't do nothing can they? It's a catch-22. If you have a solution better than that Yi-Long... please share.

There are so many other things we can use to get rid of terrorisme, like working closely together with the goverments who have terrorists among them, build a good relationship, and get them on our side, against the terrorists.

That sounds great. But isn't that what they're already doing? Most of Saddam's lot were arrested by Pakistani Police.

[grim_tales]

In an interview on BBC Breakfast today (I think) there was an interview with some Muslim men who said they were angry because of the people we'd killed in Iraq/Afghanistan. Didn't they feel angry when Saddam and the Taliban were killing their countrymen? (On purpose remember).

[romerojpg]

Hey I just get angry reading the crap about this pathetic shit!
basically the nutters who did the London Bomings deserve extereme pain and death and so does anyone who says anything like praise about them, which is happening still!! kill the lot of them and anyone who even thinks about it as a good thing.

I find it sick that people are allowed to spout the shit they are in our country after the deaths of over 50 people! people who speak this crap kick them the hell out of Our country and dont let tham back, or even better torture them till the die screaming.

As I said earlier, most of them are pig ignorant inbred fools who dont suport any god or any religion (and if they do most have been soooo brainwashed they are not normal in any way), they are loonies who like to kill and want to be remembered as Murdering bastards, may they all burn in eternal hell for what they do, have done and will do. As they will not be going to Heaven ever!

Legions of these nutters spout shit, but they know very little at all as they have been given soo much misinformation about everything there whole lives, Brainwashing is rampant and these people still think we(the armed forces) eat babies, maybe someone should do something about these fools who spout misinformation and lies!

These morons are such loosers they didnt even leave a message to say why they did it. they could have done it for free ice creams for all we know, as they have a better chance of getting free ice cream than stopping the USA and its many followers from killing murdering bastrds like themselves. I say bomb the shit out of the lot of them, no mercy at all for any of them.

[grim_tales]

Did anyone hear the speech by that Muslim cleric guy who said (in effect) Britain only has itself to blame for the London attacks and our actions in Iraq are behind the Al-Qaeda attacks on the people of London.

If so then what is behind Al-Qaeda attacks on - Bali, the US, and the current suicide attacks on the people of Baghdad and the rest of Iraq?

[Mordib]

this thread still going on??

bombing the shit out of people does not help stop the violence... its true in most areas of life, one person thinks they have been wronged by another takes revenge. that person feels the attack was unjustified so takes revenge. the other felt they were justified in the first place so take revenge for the revenge and so forth... its a vicious circle...

i have no problems this lot did it 'in revenge' for iraq... previous bombings, well just do some research, they always have a reason, something they are taking revenge for. it doesnt matter whether everyone else thinks its a stupid thing to take revenge for, its the people with the bombs youve got to convince, not the sane majority.

the day people en masse just start blowing other people up for the fun of it is the day when we've really got to worry, but luckily mankind doesnt seem to have got that far yet.



what needs to happen to stop atrocities like this happening are as follows.

1) talk to the muslim youth of the country, give them real facts and figures. let them vent their anger. make sure they are aware of the truth rather than a lot of gossip. one of the lads interviewed on the bbc the other day declared that the us and british had killed 120000 of his brothers in Iraq. even the most anti invasion figures put it at half that and i believe according to some reports today that the insurgents have just about managed to overtake the americans on their body count of iraqi civilians.

2) talk to bush, the entire of the far right and a whole bunch of other people from the west. use some kind of clockwork orange styledevice to drill into their heads the idea that not every shares the same beliefs and views as they do and to imagine how pissed off they would be if muslims came over and started preaching their ways to them...

1 is perfectly possible, 2 is sadly not and i dont think 1 will be very successful without 2 happening either