The Pope - Islam speech

slasher13 · Post by **slasher13** » 17 Sep 2006, 17:16

Markgway wrote:That was quite recent, but yes, it wasn't just Muslims. I'm not saying that ONLY Muslims protest, just that they do it a lot more than anyone else, and are often quite hypocritical in doing so. When Muslims protest over cartoons "we must listen and respect or else..." when Christians protest over Jerry Springer's blasphemy we laugh and ignore them for the cranks they are.

Agreed, it should'nt be a one way thing, if it offends christian, then it will offend us, and shouldn't laugh at.

I have just today read quotes that refute that claim.

"Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate."

"(fight against those who are not of the true faith) until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued"

Now either what you say is incorrect or these quotes DO NOT come direct from the Quoran... which?

Translation can be very tricky..

Okay the first and third bit I can't find... yet!, but am working on it, didn't want to show people that i didn't want to answer

The 2nd bit:
"Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends."

Taken from Sụrah al- Ma’idah, the full verse is:
O ye who believe, take not the Jews and Christians as patrons—some of them are patrons of others. And whoso among ye is patronised by them—indeed he is of them; indeed Allah guides not the wrongful tribe.
(51)

Lets break it down:

O ye who believe, take not the Jews and Christians as patrons… The Muslims are not to befriend them to the extent that the relationship is as one between a patron and his protégé, or that their friendship be such that they be intimate friends.

…—some of them are patrons of others…. Some of them patronise and assist and succour others—against the Muslims. The truth of this has become apparent in the real world over fourteen centuries, for the Jews and Christians have consistently supported each other against the Muslims, despite all the enmity and hostility between themselves.

…And whoso among ye is patronised by them… Whoso befriends them to the extent that they are as patrons and supporters instead of fellow Muslims,

…—indeed he is of them;… That is, by his actions he is a disbeliever, and bound for the fire, and a danger to the Muslims. And the truth of this has been witnessed over the past century as those Muslims who have taken patronage from the disbelievers have been the most dangerous of all to the Muslims, giving succour to the disbelievers and being succoured by them.

…indeed Allah guides not the tribe wrongful. Such as wrong themselves after their knowledge and recognition, for truly Allah, glorified be He, no longer graces them with His hidden grace.

Following upon this decisive ordinance which has been proven by the logic of the history of Islam, in that every protégé desires the good of his patron, rather than the good of the community, the matter is expounded upon:

To be honest, You could say this is true today, when you talking about Iraq, Lebanon, Palastine.

But lets add more, prior to this verse in Aal `Imran 3:84, there is the following

[Say: We believe in God, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the Prophets from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another.]

What does this mean:
Islam teaches the respect of all beliefs.

As is borne out by this command of God in the Qur’an, Muslims must believe in all the prophets of God previously sent to humanity. This means that they are not permitted to show any disrespect to any prophet or to the religion he taught to his followers. To a Muslim, religious belief must come out of a person’s free choice, as God has also commanded not to use any kind of coercion in the matter of religion:

[Let there be no compulsion in religion, truth stands out clear from error.] (Al-Baqarah 2:256)

It is the conviction of a religion’s adherents, not the compulsion they can impose on others, that establishes its moral force on earth. This was a principle evident in the life and practice of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be on him) as well as the Constitution of Madinah which he drew up with the multi-religious community of Madinah.

Muslims don't believe Jesus is God's son. Now wouldn't saying that be offensive to Christians as it's the backbone of their religion? Are you saying that Muslims shouldn't say that lest Christians are offended and protest? Burn down Mosques, perhaps?

Yes that is true Mark, we don't believe Jesus is the son of God. We believe that Jesus is a Prophet. Exactly as written in the bible as well, he will come down to fight the anti-christ (Da-jaal)

romerojpg · Post by **romerojpg** » 17 Sep 2006, 20:51

I will pay to watch that fight

I am sure they will have managers and be sponsered up to the eyes and will make a killing.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 17 Sep 2006, 23:57

Taken from Sụrah al- Ma’idah, the full verse is:
O ye who believe, take not the Jews and Christians as patrons—some of them are patrons of others. And whoso among ye is patronised by them—indeed he is of them; indeed Allah guides not the wrongful tribe.
(51)

Lets break it down:

O ye who believe, take not the Jews and Christians as patrons… The Muslims are not to befriend them to the extent that the relationship is as one between a patron and his protégé, or that their friendship be such that they be intimate friends.

Is that not saying then that a Muslim cannot disrespect a person from another religion, but still, shouldn't lower themselves to make friends with or trust them because they might someday present a danger? Am I reading into that rightly? Could I be your friend based on what's said in that passage? Is my worth less that than of a fellow Muslim?

Yes that is true Mark, we don't believe Jesus is the son of God. We believe that Jesus is a Prophet. Exactly as written in the bible as well, he will come down to fight the anti-christ (Da-jaal)

I could've sworn that Christians deemed Jesus the original son of God? Am I wrong? Any Christians out there to deny or confirm? Point is: would Muslims deny any of their beliefs so as not to offend another religion? Of course not. So why should The Pope be any different? If he wants to believe Muhammad was whatever it was he said -- so be it. He was quoting but I find that aspect irrelevant.

slasher13 · Post by **slasher13** » 18 Sep 2006, 08:07

but still, shouldn't lower themselves to make friends with or trust them because they might someday present a danger? Am I reading into that rightly? Could I be your friend based on what's said in that passage? Is my worth less that than of a fellow Muslim?

No on the less worth, there is nothing said, that a person is less worth than anyone else, everyone in Islam is equal, you cannot be worth less than a fellow muslim.
To answer the question thou, Notice the word patron and protege

Patron - (Roman History). the protector of a dependent or client, often the former master of a freedman still retaining certain rights over him.

Protégé - a person under the patronage, protection, or care of someone interested in his or her career or welfare.

intimate friends AKA confidant - Also be known as a close friend or associate to whom secrets are confided or with whom private matters and problems are discussed. Private matters could be to do with husband/wife relationship, but before you say something

, it is also mentioned in the Qu'ran, you cannot talk about this to another muslim as well (Husband/Wife issues).

I could've sworn that Christians deemed Jesus the original son of God? Am I wrong? Any Christians out there to deny or confirm? Point is: would Muslims deny any of their beliefs so as not to offend another religion? Of course not. So why should The Pope be any different? If he wants to believe Muhammad was whatever it was he said -- so be it. He was quoting but I find that aspect irrelevant.

Sorry, should have written it more clearly, yes the Christian believe Jesus (PBUH) was the son of God, but Muslim believe he was a prophet. What I meant to say, is that both Christians and Muslim believe he will come back. However a fellow muslim can never say due to him being a prophet that he brought evil into this world, which the Pope quoted. That what I was suggesting. Yes of course, Christians and Muslim disagree with one aspect, but overall they believe in the same - There is no god but allah. Also again like I had mentioned before, a muslim should respect a fellow christian and his belief, therefore they can talk about religion, but in no way would he say anything against Jesus (PBUH), as basically Jesus (PBUH) is apart of Islam as well. He is mentioned in the Qu'ran.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 18 Sep 2006, 14:18

Thanks for taking the time to respond...

No more questions...

I still think all religion is fundamentally crazy...

They deserve each other...

slasher13 · Post by **slasher13** » 18 Sep 2006, 14:39

Hey Mark, Thanks for actually making time and putting in points (thought provoking) and sources as well

Many people I know don't take the time to do this, when talking about such subjects

LOL, yes I respect your beliefs, and to be honest each to their own beliefs, life is too short to make war, a nice peaceful life I think we all agree is what everyone in the world wants...

.... By the way hope I haven't offended anyone be they religious or not.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 18 Sep 2006, 15:20

I think the thing with the speech/passage is extremists have taken it out of context.. I mean he was taking to students at a lecture... as I said why did he single out Islam specifically, other religions have (minority of, I hope) violent followers, and why did the media choose to focus on that one passage and ONLY that passage, and nothing he said before or after?

slasher13 · Post by **slasher13** » 18 Sep 2006, 15:52

Today on Reuters, there is a picture of an "An man burns an effigy of Pope Benedict and a German flag during a demonstration in Basra city, south of Iraq September 18, 2006". So yes I condone this, and cannot give any reason why.

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - Al Qaeda militants in Iraq vowed war on "worshippers of the cross" and protesters burned a papal effigy on Monday over Pope Benedict's comments on Islam, while Western churchmen and statesmen tried to calm passions.

Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei joined a chorus of Muslim criticism of the head of the world's 1.1 billion Roman Catholics, calling the Pope's remarks "the latest chain of the crusade against Islam started by America's (George W.) Bush".

The Pontiff said on Sunday he was deeply sorry Muslims had been offended by his use of a medieval quotation on Islam and holy war. But he stopped short of retracting a speech seen as portraying Islam as a religion tainted by violence.

One thing is that Pope should see what the crusades was about, but the following:

"We shall break the cross and spill the wine ... God will (help) Muslims to conquer Rome ... (May) God enable us to slit their throats, and make their money and descendants the bounty of the mujahideen," said the statement, posted on Sunday on an Internet site often used by al Qaeda and other militant groups.

Al-Qaeda does not speak for Islam, to be honest, they have their own agenda, because think about it, if Al-Qaeda really cared for Muslims, why haven't they talked about Muslims in Kashmir???!!!. Whoops, yes we forgot about that!!!!, funny how no one really talks about that. There is alot of tragic around in this world, especially now with Dafur, which my heart goes out to.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 18 Sep 2006, 16:32

slasher13 wrote:Today on Reuters, there is a picture of an "An man burns an effigy of Pope Benedict and a German flag during a demonstration in Basra city, south of Iraq September 18, 2006". So yes I condone this, and cannot give any reason why.

Lol, I think you mean condemn?

Al Qaeda militants...Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei

Yeah, those are the guys Muslims should be listening to..........

The Pontiff said on Sunday he was deeply sorry Muslims had been offended by his use of a medieval quotation on Islam and holy war. But he stopped short of retracting a speech seen as portraying Islam as a religion tainted by violence.

If it's what he believes there's no reason for him to retract it. Disagree by all means... but what's the point in protesting? It's not going to change Catholicism nor should it anymore than the Pope's words should change Islam. Freedom of speech and thought has to be equal for everyone.

"We shall break the cross and spill the wine ... God will (help) Muslims to conquer Rome ... (May) God enable us to slit their throats, and make their money and descendants the bounty of the mujahideen," said the statement, posted on Sunday on an Internet site often used by al Qaeda and other militant groups.

Nice.

Al-Qaeda does not speak for Islam, to be honest, they have their own agenda, because think about it, if Al-Qaeda really cared for Muslims, why haven't they talked about Muslims in Kashmir???!!!. Whoops, yes we forgot about that!!!!, funny how no one really talks about that. There is alot of tragic around in this world, especially now with Dafur, which my heart goes out to.

Absolutely. The problem is not enough Muslims see it this way and honestly believe that Al Qadea and the like are defending Islam. They're not. They're trying to destory western civilization. And if Islam is demonized in the process and civilian Muslims lose their lives -- so be it. The more destruction and death brought upon the west (and anyone who sympathises) the better.