September 11th Aftermath - Poll inside...

Shen · Post by **Shen** » 12 Feb 2006, 16:21

atleast i actually research my idas and form them myself!

also did i actually say i support the actions of religious murderers? i think you will find that i did not, i do not support murder in any form at all..its abhorrent.

and neither do i believe in god, however i do not condemn those who do...so the hell part well if i go there atleast its warm...(sorry to any religious people here but yeah)

as for *facts* you only need to search *9/11* and get up a multitude of articles by prestigious Americans, Brits, Arabs. Germans, French etc... who hjave conducted their own research into the 9/11 events.. i'd rather take the ideas of people who think for themselves and have an IQ higher than 75, than the word of the president of the USA...

and as a last note, i speak no more on this subject, since i joined like 2 days ago and already plunged into a debate that could get nasty, i'd rather keep it nice..

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 12 Feb 2006, 16:24

romerojpg wrote:Good, others obviously do and they are the ones I am aiming my comments at. Too many people are saying they are doing the right thing, when killing is not good at all, its sick and Evil.

If killing in your opinion is "not good at all", why vote for the first option?

People still suport Sadamme Husain for fucks sake! the amount of innocents he wiped from the face oft he earh and religious fools still follow him show how messed up over there is.

The majority of the people know that and have always been against Saddam. But his followers do not follow him due to religious beliefs. How did you come up with that? My best friend's uncle was killed by Saddam in the 1980's, but my friend and his whole family support the same opinions as I do. Saddam has always been evil, but also with the support of the UN. And even though I always wanted the fucker to be thrown over, I wasn't really happy that the US did it. I would rather have had it that Iraqis attacked the palace and killed the guy with hundreds of knives or so.
So the guys in Iraq who are fighting imperialists and Western soldiers are not necessarily Saddam-fans.

The only way its ever gonna end is when everyones dead...

So you are basically supporting the holocaust-idea of killing everybody?

fucks as in they marry theri own relatives and get defective children, maybe thats something to do with it!

Uhm... the only relatives one is allowed to marry in Islam are cousins, which by the way is also allowed in the West, so where is your problem? Defective children are really rare in this matter, though. A lot of married people I know are cousins and the only state of a defective child I know of to be honest is one that was born blind. It was argued that it was due to the same blood type of the married cousins, but it could also have been due to genetical transfer. Well, I am engaged to my cousin as well and I am happy that the likeliness of getting a defective child is not as high as in certain areas of Vietnam where the USA has used napalm.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 12 Feb 2006, 16:28

Tom2681 wrote:If a real war happens, I know I'll be fighting at Bin Laden's side.
(I remain unaffected by evil american propaganda).

Was that a sarcastic joke? Or are you mentally ill?

I'm hoping option A.

1. Were America right to go after Bin Laden? Yes, a terrorist attack has the right and duty to be avenged. But that's not a green light to just bomb anyone you feel like and kill civilians.
2. Were America right to go after Saddam? No, his threat was, I think, not great, and moreover the war wasn't officially sanctioned.
3. Will America be right to go after Iran? Depends on what the U.N verdict is and how serious the threat is deemed?
4. Is the torture of prisoners wrong? Unless lives are at stake, it is wrong to randomly torture suspects that maybe innocent. If you catch a suspect with bomb-making equipment and know his friend is due to set off a large explosion, that would be an example where torture is necessary.
5. Should America force democracy on the Middle East? No, that's their business. If Iraq wanted democracy they should've received help from other Arab countries. When America is perfection, then they can Police the world.
6. Is Geroge Bush an asshole? Yes, obviously.
7. Is Bin Laden a murderous piece of shit? Yes, obviously.

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 12 Feb 2006, 16:32

Markgway wrote:1. Were America right to go after Bin Laden? Yes, a terrorist attack has the right and duty to be avenged. But that's not a green light to just bomb anyone you feel like and kill civilians.
2. Were America right to go after Saddam? No, his threat was, I think, not great, and moreover the war wasn't officially sanctioned.
3. Will America be right to go after Iran? Depends on what the U.N verdict is and how serious the threat is deemed?
4. Is the torture of prisoners wrong? Unless lives are at stake, it is wrong to randomly torture suspects that maybe innocent. If you catch a suspect with bomb-making equipment and know his friend is due to set off a large explosion, that would be an example where torture is necessary.
5. Should America force democracy on the Middle East? No, that's their business. If Iraq wanted democracy they should've received help from other Arab countries. When America is perfection, then they can Police the world.
6. Is Geroge Bush an asshole? Yes, obviously.
7. Is Bin Laden a murderous piece of shit? Yes, obviously.

Can't believe I'm agreeing with all your points, Mark.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 12 Feb 2006, 16:33

P.S. I didn't vote because I didn't feel the options quite captured my feelings...

As for marrying your cousin... who cares as long as she's hot?

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 12 Feb 2006, 16:34

I think she is, so that's cool with me.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 12 Feb 2006, 16:41

It sounded as if Tom was saying 9/11 was "okay" which frankly disturbs me.

As you said Mark, it is within a country's remit to defend an attack/avenge it. Doesn't mean you can kill civilians (whether you have the "intention" or not) and bomb the shit out of random buildings however.

tom2681 · Post by **tom2681** » 12 Feb 2006, 16:53

I guess I need to reply to some of that.
Here goes...

Mark wrote:-I'll be fighting at Bin Laden's side.
-Was that a sarcastic joke? Or are you mentally ill?

Neither I'm afraid. Although that depends on your point of view.

Have you ever stopped to think about the grand scheme of things ?
We (as in the US/UK/"West") are terrorists too. In many ways we are much much worse than Bin Laden and his friends.
Our media is naturally trying to make us look like the good guys, but that's just not true.
BTW Mark, I happen to agree with most of your points (except N°7 of course).

Grim Tales wrote:It sounded as if Tom was saying 9/11 was "okay" which frankly disturbs me

"Okay" is not how I would put it.
But after everything that has been done to them over the years (what's left of Afghanistan and Iraq now ?), I'd say that "it's only fair".

Killing innocents is wrong, sure. But in this conflict our side (or should I say "the West") has killed more innocents than the terrorists have.
People make a big deal over 9/11, but they don't seem to realize that, in the Middle-East, 9/11 happens every fucking day.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 12 Feb 2006, 17:23

AFAIK in Afghanistan while Kabul (sp?) is better off and has elections, the real "power" is still in the hands of warlords, this is exactly the setup that allowed the Taliban (sp?) to thrive.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 12 Feb 2006, 17:26

Tom2681 wrote:Neither I'm afraid. Although that depends on your point of view.

Then it's B.

Have you ever stopped to think about the grand scheme of things ?
We (as in the US/UK/"West") are terrorists too. In many ways we are much much worse than Bin Laden and his friends.

Huh? Bin Laden purposely slaughtered innocent civilians, Americans do it out of incompetance and error. He is evil, Bush is an idiot. If Bin Laden set off a terrorist explosion in France and your parents were killed (and your cats!) would you still say the same?

BTW Mark, I happen to agree with most of your points (except N°7 of course).

I've argued many political points on this forum, many over terrorism and Iraq, many with Lost Dragon, but here I'm just stunned by your words. I think it's sheer shock that's stopping me from letting rip.

"Okay" is not how I would put it. But after everything that has been done to them over the years (what's left of Afghanistan and Iraq now ?), I'd say that "it's only fair".

FAIR???

<<HOLDING BACK>>

Killing innocents is wrong, sure.

But "FAIR" right??

People make a big deal over 9/11, but they don't seem to realize that, in the Middle-East, 9/11 happens every fucking day.

That's a gross exaggeration. When has America ever PURPOSELY murdered thousands of INNOCENT Arabs? We aren't talking about casualties of war here, but deliberate terrorist acts. You say you've not been caught up in western propaganda... but do you subscribe to Al Jazeera perchance? So if ANY French person does harm to me or my family I'll just take it out on you. That's FAIR isn't it?

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 12 Feb 2006, 17:35

Tom2681 wrote:I guess I need to reply to some of that.
Here goes...

Mark wrote:-I'll be fighting at Bin Laden's side.
-Was that a sarcastic joke? Or are you mentally ill?
Neither I'm afraid. Although that depends on your point of view.

Have you ever stopped to think about the grand scheme of things ?
We (as in the US/UK/"West") are terrorists too. In many ways we are much much worse than Bin Laden and his friends.
Our media is naturally trying to make us look like the good guys, but that's just not true.
BTW Mark, I happen to agree with most of your points (except N°7 of course).

Grim Tales wrote:It sounded as if Tom was saying 9/11 was "okay" which frankly disturbs me
"Okay" is not how I would put it.
But after everything that has been done to them over the years (what's left of Afghanistan and Iraq now ?), I'd say that "it's only fair".

Killing innocents is wrong, sure. But in this conflict our side (or should I say "the West") has killed more innocents than the terrorists have.
People make a big deal over 9/11, but they don't seem to realize that, in the Middle-East, 9/11 happens every fucking day.

Do "we" INTENTIONALLY wipe out innocents and blow up buses full of schoolchildren in the middle east??? No. Its' not even in the same ballpark.

romerojpg · Post by **romerojpg** » 12 Feb 2006, 17:42

thelostdragon wrote:
romerojpg wrote:Good, others obviously do and they are the ones I am aiming my comments at. Too many people are saying they are doing the right thing, when killing is not good at all, its sick and Evil.
If killing in your opinion is "not good at all", why vote for the first option?

The only way its ever gonna end is when everyones dead...
So you are basically supporting the holocaust-idea of killing everybody?

fucks as in they marry theri own relatives and get defective children, maybe thats something to do with it!
Uhm... the only relatives one is allowed to marry in Islam are cousins, which by the way is also allowed in the West, so where is your problem? Defective children are really rare in this matter, though. A lot of married people I know are cousins and the only state of a defective child I know of to be honest is one that was born blind. It was argued that it was due to the same blood type of the married cousins, but it could also have been due to genetical transfer. Well, I am engaged to my cousin as well and I am happy that the likeliness of getting a defective child is not as high as in certain areas of Vietnam where the USA has used napalm.

Well the 1st part

I didnt read that part right then, I misunderstood some parts of some peoples comments, thats why I went a bit mental re-reading some comments now from others they make more sense.

2nd coment
Nope, just that when evereyones dead on both sides then there will be no one to fight and argue with not saying any side deserves that awfull holocaust type disaster on them.

and as for tha marrying of cousins, yes its legal (it should not be to me) and sorry to say the cases are rare that you state is very inaurate from the things I have seen on it, I have seen many documentaries on this subject. I wont go into details, but its very, very serious and very far from rare.

The amount of problematic defects and general interbreeding problems that occur from marrying relations is a big problem. I dont know exactly how I can proove this to you as I dont exactly have the facts at hand, but its up to you to beleve or think I am full of bullshit what I have seen on cousin marrages is really sick that the children of these people have a large rate of deformaty, thats a big enuff reason not to do it and in the UK alone it was such a shocking figure of abnormality in babies That it shocked me senseless that its legal anywhere. I dont know what kind of figures they have whereyou are, and it was said in one of the documentaries that most cases are not even reported sadly, but just in the UK alone the figures were an abomonation. Relation breeding is known to have side effects, and for me thats one reason not to do it, think of the children, not of your self.

Shen,
dont feel bad or anything you may have just joined, but I dont mind what you say to me, or what you want to call me. Political subjects on this forum do get very heated and many peoples opinions get out of control, mine and others. But for me I dont find any problem at all, as its not as if we are killing each other or breaking the law to back up our opinions, its only a set of words on a forum. One look at the real news in real life shows us plenty of bad things, a forum just helps discus them, no matter how out opf control it gets I am sure we would not resort to killing etc..

I just find some of the conspiracy theorys about 9/11 insulting to me and millions of others as some are so bad natured and crafty thats its a bit of a joke. America did it to themselves to create a war? just sounds insane to me and many experts.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 12 Feb 2006, 18:53

I actually find that quite wierd too Romero (the bit about 9/11 conspiracies), I think its' insulting to the people who died

However Shen's article was interesting to read.

romerojpg · Post by **romerojpg** » 12 Feb 2006, 19:07

Well some of the theories are insane, Shens at least has some back up so to say.

Some of the more mental ones are just crazy, like the people who stole the planes were brainwashed opratives programmed to do all this on the same day just to kill certain key people who were in the towers! and the thing is some people beleve the conspiracies, and refuse to accept what really is a simple thing. Religious people wanted to kill as many americans in one go as they could, and they did, but thats just to simple for many people to get.

Its like looking past the truth for something more that isnt there. I am sure many of the more extrreme types would love to crash planes into buildings if they had the chance (hell some would love to use nukes I am sure, and one day someone will), as that way they can kill as many as they can with their sad pathetic lives and then become some sort of god like person for all the other mentalists to look up to and hope to acchive what they did. Its a dangerous game these types play and one day they will bring down the end of the world, or some very nasty payback from a country who gets a bit too angy and want to test Nukes, even if they kill millions of innocents in the process.

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 12 Feb 2006, 20:39

Not really planning into getting into a huge debate, as usually my comments are taken out of context or are being misunderstood by some, which cause unnessesary friction...

but...

'We' really have no business in the East. So why are 'we' posting our troops there and clusterbombing the shit out of certain areas!?

Saddam was an evil guy, no question about it... but there would have been better way to get him out of power, such as financially supporting Iraqi opposition. Now we're in an unjust war, which has caused thousands and thousands of innocent people to lose their lifes. Yes, their life wasnt very good under Saddams regime either (depending on their location and political views ofcourse), but that doesnt mean we can just blow them up as well.

Comparing Bush Jr. and Bin Laden, I think I could have a more sophisticated conversation with Bin Laden. By all accounts, Bin Laden is considered a sweet and very smart man in private(who has obviously taken a very very wrong way to wage his war for what he beliefs in), while Bush is by most accounts a dumb, dishonest, and cowardly man who lacks social insight, compassion, etc etc. I'd rather spend a week with Bin Laden then with Dubya.
Both abuse religion to get people behind them though. Bin Laden has very little, if anything, to do with the true meaning of Islam, while Bush Jr. is a radical Christian (most 'new-borns' usually are) who preaches one thing while doing another. He isnt a decent person.

America is a sick nation, as far as I'm concerned, when you purely look at their history. It's BUILT on terrorisme and mass-murder. It's whole foundation is grounded in EVIL. After America was founded and formed, it's been war after war after war... and in most cases, America was wrong. We all think we 'owe' America for freeing us, but they only started medling with it when Hitler was threatening America, plus the USA was very scared that Russia/The Soviets, would get control over the whole of Europe if THEY would beat Hitler. So America's reasons for joining the war, were probably selfish. Which doesnt mean we shouldnt be thankfull, just that we shouldnt forget to always stay objective about judging their actions.

Ofcourse, most Americans are peace-loving people that just want a good, decent life. However, many of them seem very OK with killing and defeating other nations, to maintain that way of living. It's like violence and war is one of the first ways they can think of whenever a problem occurs. How many wars have the Canadians been involved in!?

I think our views of the Middle East, and it's people, are very skewed by the media, which is logical, as they only show the extremes on the news. They won't show the millions of peacefull muslims, as there isnt much news in that.

Same goes with our views of Americans obviously. We only get to see the crimes of the goverment, the spoiled people in Hollywood, and teh white trash on shows like Jerry Springer. We dont get to see the 'normal' people going around their daily routines, as it isnt very interesting to put on the news.
However, we get lots of comedies and sitcoms and movies with likeable american guys and girls, which complements the bad images we get from Americans.

We dont get that (shows, sitcoms, music, movies, etc) from the middle east, so perhaps that's why we tend to relate more with the western world. We ONLY know the Muslims from negative newsreports and actions.

Why do we think it's OK for Bush to kill tens or hundreds of thousands of innocent people (under false pretences), while we think it's pure evil if a couple of muslims fly a few planes in a few buildings just so they can get their point across and finally strike back at the USA and it's people for all the crimes they have suffered in the past!?

Ofcourse, it's ALWAYS wrong to kill innocent people, but why do many of us 'westerners' dont make such an uproar about it when the west does it to the east, as we do when the east does it to the west?

Ofcourse it's because WE are 'the west', and we're biased... but just view it from an objective point of view. As an outsider.

Why do we consider Bin Laden the most dangerous guy alive, while at the same time 'we' 'support' an obvious moron like Bush and his cronies, when they bomb many innocent people, while at the same time make a profit from the war with all the oil- and arms deals they have going on!?

Bin Laden should be punished for his crimes against innocent people... but so should Bush and his collegues be held responsible for all these crimes.

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 12 Feb 2006, 21:42

romerojpg wrote:(hell some would love to use nukes I am sure, and one day someone will), as that way they can kill as many as they can with their sad pathetic lives and then become some sort of god like person for all the other mentalists to look up to and hope to acchive what they did. Its a dangerous game these types play and one day they will bring down the end of the world, or some very nasty payback from a country who gets a bit too angy and want to test Nukes, even if they kill millions of innocents in the process.

Wow... sounds like you're talking about the USA and Hiroshima/Nagazaki.

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 12 Feb 2006, 22:03

Good read, Yi.

Just read that for the rest of the year after Sept. 11th 2001, the USA has spent 7.9 billion US Dollars on bombing Afghanistan. I'm wondering how much more of tax money they spent beyond the end of 2001 for killing hundreds of thousands of people. I'm talking just about the bombings here, not the expenses for troops, transport etc.

and as for tha marrying of cousins, yes its legal (it should not be to me) and sorry to say the cases are rare that you state is very inaurate from the things I have seen on it, I have seen many documentaries on this subject. I wont go into details, but its very, very serious and very far from rare.

Funny, can you tell me the names of the documentaries. Would love to watch them. I'm sure I'll be able to find them if there are so many that you have watched. Man, of course you saw many cases of that as it was a documentary dealing with that topic. If I watch a documentary about gold and diamonds, it doesn't mean I can find them burried in my front garden, just because I saw so much of it in "many" documentaries. I can only tell you what I have experienced in real life and it is very likely, that I know a lot of more married cousins than you do (in case you know ANY), because marriage between cousins is much more common where I am from. And so far I the only defective child I noticed is that blind kid, who by the way has healthy brothers and sisters.

But thanks for your caring anyway. Maybe I should break with my fiancé and reason it by saying, "Sorry, dear! I love and all, but romero said he watched many documentaries about marriage between cousins and they all produced retarded kids."

BTW: could it be that you saw the kids of siblings?

It's right that when siblings with the same genes have a child, that the kids' genes become retrogressive, but cousins without the same blood type do not have much to fear about.

My case for example: My fiancé is the daughter of my father's half-brother and the woman he is married to (her mother) comes from a completely different family. I am half Jordanian (Palestinian) and half German. To be honest, I was afraid of the same thing you started started talking about (which I can't figure why you did). However, I researched about this matter a lot myself and I'm not scared at all to get retarded kids.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 13 Feb 2006, 01:27

If it can be proven that the Americans in command purposely executed civilians in Afghanistan and/or Iraq then they should be arrested and prosecuted. If the seniors knew about it - right up to President Chaney (you read that right) then he too should be impeached. Until we have proof we cannot compare Bush to Bin Laden. Bush is a moron and has undoubtedly caused the deaths of thousands through invasion... it does disgust me when innocents on any side die. But unless we can categorically state that Bush and his staff knew that they would be slaughtering non-terrorists and non-insurgants then the comparison of evil is inapt.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 13 Feb 2006, 11:41

Mark are you sure torture is necessary? If say I or you were under interrogation or torture wouldn't you say anything just to stop it? I bet some people would admit to anything here - so saying how do we know confessions are trustworthy?
Look at 24's Tony Almeida (sp?) - he winds up capitulating with Stephen Saunders just to stop the possible torture/killing of his wife.

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 13 Feb 2006, 11:53

Maybe we should torture Bush untill he admits he knowingly lied to the American people to invade Iraq so he could make a personal benefit from it!?

Shen · Post by **Shen** » 13 Feb 2006, 12:05

the bush administration have no concience when it comes to torture even going as far as to suggest that if needs be they will authorize the torture of th prisoners child, eve by crushing that childs nuts in order to make the prisoner parents speak...

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/ja ... ildren.htm

as far as i can tell there is no media coverage of this yet happening but its scary that they would authorize it if they wanted too...

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 13 Feb 2006, 15:53

grim_tales wrote:Mark are you sure torture is necessary? If say I or you were under interrogation or torture wouldn't you say anything just to stop it? I bet some people would admit to anything here - so saying how do we know confessions are trustworthy?

Only necessary when lives depend on it. If a terrorist is going to plant a bomb and you have his comrade in custody wouldn't you torture him for information in order to stop the explosion that will cause massive casualties? Or is it more important to be seen to maintain the status quo and not offend anyone? Of course the suspect could be lying... but that's a chance you have to take.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 13 Feb 2006, 16:34

Bin Laden is a sweet and nice guy in private?! I hope Yi was joking, I hear Hitler and Pol Pot were lovely guys to their mums as well.

Bush may be a coward, ignorant and as thick as pigshit, but he's not a tyrant.

If it was irony (and I didnt get it), I apologise.

That was a good read. I agree America probably joined WWII for "selfish" reasons - you're right it was after Hitler declared War on America - BUT there was lots of propaganda going around before then, to try and get America to join.
You're right also there are plenty of reasons to also like America (and Americans). Does every American deserve to be tarred with the same brush? No

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 13 Feb 2006, 17:22

Markgway wrote:
grim_tales wrote:Mark are you sure torture is necessary? If say I or you were under interrogation or torture wouldn't you say anything just to stop it? I bet some people would admit to anything here - so saying how do we know confessions are trustworthy?
Only necessary when lives depend on it. If a terrorist is going to plant a bomb and you have his comrade in custody wouldn't you torture him for information in order to stop the explosion that will cause massive casualties? Or is it more important to be seen to maintain the status quo and not offend anyone? Of course the suspect could be lying... but that's a chance you have to take.

But of many of these tortured guys we arent even sure if they are terrorists, let alone if they have ANY direct connections to Bin Laden.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 13 Feb 2006, 17:51

They shouldn't be tortured then under ANY cicumstances. Prisoners also cannot held without trial like in Guantanamo Bay and Abu Graib (sp?) - thats just wrong.

Bullets 'n' Babes

September 11th Aftermath - Poll inside...

Is the war in the Middle East still justifiable with the happenings of 9/11?