Let's Discuss HD Combo Players!

romerojpg · Post by **romerojpg** » 23 Jul 2007, 17:09

One of them, bahhh! we souldnt have to update! bloody morons should be relasing perfect players, instead of silly hacks to get them working properly.

gasteropod · Post by **gasteropod** » 23 Jul 2007, 18:34

Right, I got a reply from Toshiba today, and there is a way to do it

I just did what he said, and it's worked! Judder-free panning! Yes!

If anyone wants to know, you have to hold the standby button on your PS3 so that it goes into HDMI detect mode, and then tell it to set the optimum settings for your screen, so THEN it knows that the screen can take 24fps. I am so pleased! :mrgreen:

IronMonkey · Post by **IronMonkey** » 23 Jul 2007, 19:30

romerojpg wrote:From what I understand its an odd thing, I thought my TV was future proofed, but its seems this magic 24 frames thing is the end thing to have which I just missed out on. I think most TV's try to "emulate" what signal they get (depending on the source I guess) and turn it somehow into 24 frames, even when its not, it creates a pulse on your screen sometimes apprently.
So 24 frames is apprently the best you can get, along with 1080p. But a lot of poeple say you either see your TV try to turn it into 24 FPS or you dont, some it bugs, some never see it, so the magic 24 frames may not be needed for most people This seems only to be on HD dvds mind you.

Pretty much all HD content is put onto the disc (BD and HD DVD) at 24 frames per second because that is how it was made for the cinema.

Most TVs operate at 50 or 60Hz, (effectively 50 or 60 frames per second) and the 24 frames of the HD feed need to fit into those 60 refreshes.

This is fine in the UK for things at 25 FPS (e.g. PAL DVDs) because the 25 frames are just shown twice each to fit into a 50Hz refresh rate. This means that 25 FPS content is smoothly played back.

The problem arises with 24 FPS sources such as BD & HD DVD. 24 FPS does not fit easily into 50 or 60Hz. A technique called 3:2 pulldown is used to get the frames to fit.

3:2 pulldown means that the first frame is shown 3 times, then the second frame twice, third frame 3 times, fourth frame twice, and so on. This means a 24 FPS signal can fit into a 60Hz refresh. The jitter problem is caused on panning shots whereby frames are repeated in an uneven manner.

This effect can be seen on NTSC DVDs as well as BD & HD DVD, so if you don't notice the jitter on your NTSC DVDs, you won't notice it on the HD formats either.

The only reason there's a lot of talk about it now is because our UK BD & HD DVD discs are from 24 FPS masters. It was either that or have 25 FPS transfers that have been sped up (just like PAL DVDs).

As for TVs supporting 24 FPS, as far as I'm aware, there are none that will play back at 24Hz. The few (and I mean very few) that will cope with a 24 FPS signal without 3:2 pulldown operate at 72Hz - each of the 24 frames is repeated 3 times to fit into the 72Hz signal.

I think only the Pioneer high-end plasma screens feature 72Hz refresh & I don't know of any LCD screens that have that feature.

In short, I wouldn't worry about it - as long as your HDTV features a good 3:2 pulldown processor you shouldn't really notice the judder. Most people never notice it on NTSC DVDs, & its no different to that.

That explanation is probably as clear as mud to most people but its quite hard to explain without going into a lot of detail...

gasteropod · Post by **gasteropod** » 23 Jul 2007, 19:47

LOL I just read that there's a PS3 firmware update coming tomorrow which features forcing 24Hz output

IronMonkey · Post by **IronMonkey** » 23 Jul 2007, 19:48

Are you sure its forcing 24Hz? Or could it be a multiple of 24Hz, like 72Hz? If a PS3 forces 24Hz to an HDTV which doesn't support it, it will either show no signal or damage the TV, so I don't think 24Hz is a good idea at all...

gasteropod · Post by **gasteropod** » 23 Jul 2007, 21:22

My TV does support 24Hz, therefore I will be telling my PS3 to force it.

Lourdes · Post by **Lourdes** » 23 Jul 2007, 21:38

Your TV doesn't display at 24Hz, it accepts the signal and displays it at a higher multiple.

IronMonkey · Post by **IronMonkey** » 24 Jul 2007, 13:41

Exactly Lourdes. My guess is your TV will display the 24 FPS signal at 72Hz gasteropod.

gasteropod · Post by **gasteropod** » 24 Jul 2007, 16:50

Is that any good? Will 72Hz get rid of juddering?

IronMonkey · Post by **IronMonkey** » 24 Jul 2007, 17:25

It won't "get rid" of it, it just won't introduce it. Did you not read my detailed post?!

The 24 frames will be shown 3 times each, so there will be no judder.

gasteropod · Post by **gasteropod** » 24 Jul 2007, 17:35

I've tested juderry bits, and they seem the same. Perhaps it's LCD response time, but it looks more like judder to me.

gasteropod · Post by **gasteropod** » 24 Jul 2007, 18:15

I'm pretty sure that most LCD screens with 24Hz support simply take the 24Hz, and use 3:2 pulldown to convert it into 60Hz. That is why I am seeing no improvement, *sigh*.

IronMonkey · Post by **IronMonkey** » 25 Jul 2007, 14:15

You didn't read my post at all did you?!

All LCD & plasma screens have to be able to use 3:2 pulldown to convert the 24 FPS source into 60Hz! That is, unless they support a multiple of 24 (usually 72Hz), whereby they use 3:3 pulldown which eliminates the judder because every frame is shown 3 times each (smooth motion).

I would be very surprised if your LCD TV supports 72Hz. To my knowledge very few LCD / plasma TVs support 72Hz. In fact, the only ones that spring to mind are the stupidly expensive (and burn-prone) Pioneer plasmas support 72Hz...

gasteropod · Post by **gasteropod** » 25 Jul 2007, 14:40

What I'm saying is, mine accepts a 24Hz signal, and then uses 3:2 pulldown to output it at 60Hz. Normal LCDs don't accept a 24Hz signal, they accept a 60Hz signal outputted by the player. Yes, I did read your post.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 20 Aug 2007, 18:28

WOW the Samsung Combo has an RRP of only £375 but has been delayed in Europe to October:

http://www.pocket-lint.co.uk/news/news. ... nced.phtml

£375 for an BD + HD-DVD + Full BD-Java (hopefully) Player - WOW!

Some screenshots, even confirming 7.1 Analogue output:

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/bd_up5000/

Fingers crossed it does support BD-Java properly, it does have the Java logo on the back after all.

You do have to wonder why they bother to put Composite and S-Video outputs. I guess so you can play DVDs using it on a standard TV.

saltysam · Post by **saltysam** » 21 Aug 2007, 21:46

surely the usa version of the samsung would be the one to get,given the vastly superior choice of usa blu-ray discs.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 22 Aug 2007, 03:21

Oh agreed for sure. I just meant at that price it's worth pointing out but Tom says it's wrong:

https://www.bulletsnbabesdvd.com/forums/ ... 9151#89151

Are there that many more USA to UK discs then?

EvaUnit02 · Post by **EvaUnit02** » 22 Aug 2007, 09:33

bradavon wrote:Are there that many more USA to UK discs then?

Yes, the Lionsgate releases. Region A also includes all of East Asia (all the countries of relevance anyway).

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 02 Sep 2007, 13:41

Lots of info on the upcoming Samsung Combo Player:

Now locked but 10 pages - http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=508200
Current thread confirming the initial BD profile will only be 1.0 - http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=612513

It's suspected Samsung will soon be confirming a 1.1 profile playing player (1.1 is the minimum profile that support BD-Java). It's also suspected all the BD hardware makers are rushing players out before the October deadline.

The UK version is up for pre-order at Amazon for £529.99 - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Samsung-BD-UP50 ... B000VBKVOI

I'm waiting until Samsung releases a version that supports at least 1.1. I've waited this long I can wait a while longer.

saltysam · Post by **saltysam** » 02 Sep 2007, 18:16

Venturer are releasing the first budget HD-DVD player soon,around $150 i believe.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 05 Sep 2007, 16:15

It's getting hotter with news that LG this October will be launching their second attempt at a Combo Player, this time with HDi support:

http://www.electronichouse.com/article/ ... next_month
http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=616791

It better bloody be BD 1.1! I hope it has 5.1 Analogue too. The price looks good (enough).

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 22 Sep 2007, 20:15

According to this the Samsung Combo will support BD Java and is out in October in America, and November in Europe:

http://www.samsungexhibition.com/ifa200 ... 5&select=5

It will also support 1080/24 too. Not long now!

saltysam · Post by **saltysam** » 24 Sep 2007, 22:00

multiplayer £600

http://www.richersounds.co.uk/showprodu ... 91b0311bcf

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 24 Sep 2007, 22:56

That's the Mark 1 as I'm calling it. Richer Sounds lie it doesn't support BD-Java or at least not full BD-Java.

Thanks though.

saltysam · Post by **saltysam** » 28 Sep 2007, 19:46

wow this is a good deal-might buy it for the bedroom

7 free hd-dvds

or flog my E-1

http://www.av-sales.co.uk/DVD-20/HD-DVD ... 0-369-.htm