What general film/series have you just seen.. marks out of 5

Killer Meteor · Post by **Killer Meteor** » 24 Feb 2009, 11:34

Markgway wrote:
bradavon wrote:I thought you own the Mohicans UK DVD?
Sold it.

Mohicans has loads of heart, particularly in the Native America speeches etc..
Platitudes.

I wasn't really saying Manhunter has heart, just that it's brilliantly executed.
Which is largely what I'm saying...

Heat doesn't but again it's not really supposed to.
I disagree. You are supposed to care about these characters. Pacino's troubled family life and DeNiro's "principled" villain most noteably. It just didn't make me feel anything. HEAT was meticulous but cold.

Ali has heart too.
Must confess I haven't seen that one. Nothing to do with Mann, I just don't have any interest in Ali - the person. And I suspect it's a hero-worship whitewash job, which glosses over the fact that its subject was a racist, arrogant dickhead. Am I wrong?

Am I right in thinking that Apollo Creed was based on the more negative aspects of Ali?

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 24 Feb 2009, 11:53

Apolla was boasting and arrogant, cause he WAS arrogant. Ali was boasting and arrogant AT TIMES, just so he would draw HUGE interest onto him and his fights, and to intimidate his opponents. Much of Ali's behaviour before a fight was tongue-in-cheek.

Also Apollo was arrogant and lazy, and thus took his success for granted. Ali ALWAYS worked very hard at it, and was humble in his private life, open to everyone, walking the streets on his own, having neighbourhood kids over and playing with them and showing them the fights and magic tricks.

Apollo is a man on the top, only surrounded by a small entourage that all are HIS. Ali was just among the people, always reached out to those who had less, spoke out for his beliefs, etc etc.

Ali the Biopic is a nice movie, but it doesnt really show Ali as we know and love him. Also, Will Smith's acting is good, but he isn't Ali. He can impersonate Ali in a few scenes, but he never IS Ali. He is never convincing in a way that we think :'It's Ali!'.

I love Will Smith, and think he's a great actor, but Muhammad Ali, even in his very quiet moments, where he would just give you a small stare with a shy smile and that famous twinkle in his eye, just has an amazing 'charisma' and 'love' radiating from within. That's hard to impersonate or fake.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 24 Feb 2009, 13:59

EvaUnit02 wrote:Ali is good film on a technical level, but it fall apart because of Will Smith's piss poor performance.

What! He was brilliant. Way better than Washington from the same period.

HungFist wrote:Thankfully Miami Vice improved on this. Although it still suffered from the same "black woman tries to sink the film" syndrome

Only you Hung would consider Miami Vice one of Mann's best

(which I happen to like).

I don't get your spoiler tag at all. What? Huh?

HungFist · Post by **HungFist** » 24 Feb 2009, 14:08

bradavon wrote: I don't get your spoiler tag at all. What? Huh?

What it means, or why it's a spoiler?

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 24 Feb 2009, 16:54

Shingster wrote:Manhunter, The Insider, and Thief have a lot of heart and passion. The fact Manhunter has a narrative that dissects the pyschological state of its cop and killer then draws parallels between each other gives it tremendous depth. Ultimately all of Mann's films are about outsiders, and I genuinely believe he's put a lot of himself into many of his films.

I've seen all three and I don't get where you're coming from but to each his own.

Yes you are.

Fair enough.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 24 Feb 2009, 16:57

HungFist wrote:What it means, or why it's a spoiler?

What it means.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 24 Feb 2009, 16:58

Yi-Long wrote:How can anyone NOT have any interest in Muhammad Ali the man!? He's one of the most interesting and important figures of the last century.

Because he's a racist, arrogant dickhead. But I'll grant you he's an interesting subject. I just don't get the hero worship.

That said, you are much better off watching some great documentaries about the guy, instead of watching Michael Mann's biopic. The real deal is just so much more interesting than Smith's portrayal.

I am basing my views on some of the docs I've seen. I don't trust Hollywood to tell the truth about Ali.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 24 Feb 2009, 16:58

I get where Shing. Shing. is coming from with Manhunter, to contradict myself

. I've never seen The Thief.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 24 Feb 2009, 17:01

Ivan Drago wrote:Am I right in thinking that Apollo Creed was based on the more negative aspects of Ali?

I believe so. At least his arrogance. His racism and sick religious beliefs are rarely talked about outside of docs.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 24 Feb 2009, 17:01

Ali was definitely racist, just listen to him on Parky.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 24 Feb 2009, 17:15

I'd be amazed if Will Smith's Ali comes off as racist (or at least as racist as the real deal).

HungFist · Post by **HungFist** » 24 Feb 2009, 17:25

bradavon wrote:
HungFist wrote:What it means, or why it's a spoiler?
What it means.

Collateral crashes when a black girl gets into trouble and the main character has to go save her.

Miami Vice takes a dive when a back girl gets herself kidnapped and the main characters have to go save her.

Mann's films would be better if he just left that character out.

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 24 Feb 2009, 17:39

Ali was never racist on an individual level. He talked openly about 'The White Man', and considering the time-period, where they were at that time in America regarding to equality, it wasnt all that offensive. Obviously, white people never like being told that they've done something wrong or evil, cause 'it wasn't ME who did that, was it'!?

Ali's soundbites were 'racist', and there was a short period when he joined 'the Nation of Islam' were he was echoing Eliah Muhammad a bit too much. Those who knew him personally, or dared to question beyond the soundbites, got a more realistic and nuanced answer.
But obviously, in that era, 'the white man' was indeed 'the devil', so to speak.

I certainly don't agree with all his views (he was upset that black men were marrying white women, and that white dudes were fucking black women in sleazy hotels etc... ), but he has also always been about 'love'. I'd love to be less lazy, grab one of my Ali books, and make a huge posts full of quotes, but obviously I won't.

The man is loved by many many MANY people for very good reasons. It's absolutely worth checking out about the man and his actions and thoughts, but not everyone will be interested in doing so.

For me, Ali is a bigger and better man and legend than Bruce Lee ever was. And I absolutely love Bruce Lee. One of the greatest of all time, in each and every regard.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 24 Feb 2009, 17:45

Would you be so quick to dismiss his racism (and that's what it is no matter how you dress it up) if he were white and instead of the Nation of Islam he joined the Ku Klux Klan (whose ideals he confessed to sharing)? He would be vilified for it and rightly so. I don't care how outstanding an athlete is I apply the same moral criteria to them as I would anyone else. Being a celebrity isn't (or shouldn't be) a get of jail free card. Ali was even racist toward his own people. The things he said about Joe Frazier were a disgrace but it's OK because he's Ali.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 24 Feb 2009, 18:30

HungFist wrote:Collateral crashes when a black girl gets into trouble and the main character has to go save her.

Miami Vice takes a dive when a back girl gets herself kidnapped and the main characters have to go save her.

Mann's films would be better if he just left that character out.

What on earth does her skin colour have to do with anything? Your comments sound pretty racist, even if you didn't intend them that way. No black woman is sinking anything, you just dislike how Mann has decided to have a "female to save element", besides he hardly does it all the time.

The scene in Collateral is especially crucial to the film, given that he met her at the start. The character in Miami Vice is his girlfriend and I thought it played out well, including some great gun fights. It's at this point it gets stronger, the second half is definitely better than the first.

I completely disagree.

Markgway wrote:I'd be amazed if Will Smith's Ali comes off as racist (or at least as racist as the real deal).

He does a little but it's more about what Ali achieved in a positive light. It's still a brilliant film, from a very good actor. I did find it a bit long though, one or two of the fights could be chopped.

Yi-Long wrote:Ali was never racist on an individual level.

He so was, it's just that was black so got away with it.

Yi-Long wrote:The man is loved by many many MANY people for very good reasons. It's absolutely worth checking out about the man and his actions and thoughts, but not everyone will be interested in doing so.

No one is disagreeing with that. I have nothing but respect for the man. Everyone says or do things at times they wish they hadn't or shouldn't have.

romerojpg · Post by **romerojpg** » 24 Feb 2009, 18:49

Ali the film was not good at all, for me all that film did for me was make me dislike the real Ali a load, yup a racist, dickheaded, big headed, cheating twat by the end, not worth knowing about at all.

Anyone who respects the man after that films an idiot. If it is true that is.

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 24 Feb 2009, 19:10

Markgway wrote:Would you be so quick to dismiss his racism (and that's what it is no matter how you dress it up) if he were white and instead of the Nation of Islam he joined the Ku Klux Klan (whose ideals he confessed to sharing)? He would be vilified for it and rightly so. I don't care how outstanding an athlete is I apply the same moral criteria to them as I would anyone else. Being a celebrity isn't (or shouldn't be) a get of jail free card. Ali was even racist toward his own people. The things he said about Joe Frazier were a disgrace but it's OK because he's Ali.

I don't know. Like I said, I see those things in the context it was in, at that time of his life, in that era in American history.
Also, like I said, I certainly don't agree with all his statements at the time (when he was a bit more outspoken and radical).

I don't think he gets away with it 'cause he's black', but because there's a very real truth behind his accusations and fears and anger, that especially at that time wasn't being acknowledged enough by the main public. HE was the person (or at least one of the most important and outspoken persons) who MADE it into a subject that was going to be adressed and talked about.

Sometimes, if you want people to listen to what you have to say, you need to raise your voice or slam your hand on the table, to get everyone's attention.

HungFist · Post by **HungFist** » 24 Feb 2009, 19:14

bradavon wrote:
HungFist wrote:Collateral crashes when a black girl gets into trouble and the main character has to go save her.

Miami Vice takes a dive when a back girl gets herself kidnapped and the main characters have to go save her.

Mann's films would be better if he just left that character out.
What on earth does her skin colour have to do with anything? Your comments sound pretty racist, even if you didn't intend them that way. No black woman is sinking anything, you just dislike how Mann has decided to have a "female to save element", besides he hardly does it all the time.

The scene in Collateral is especially crucial to the film, given that he met her at the start. The character in Miami Vice is his girlfriend and I thought it played out well, including some great gun fights. It's at this point it gets stronger, the second half is definitely better than the first.

lol, I love it how mentioning a person's skin color automatically makes you a racist. Exept if you're white and talking about white people. Or if you're black and talking about other black people. Then you can say whatever you want because it doesn't mean anything. But if you're white and talking about a black person, then people give the same words a different meaning. Which makes me wonder, who is the racist?

Actually, a friend of mine often calls me "nigga". I would probably get arrested if I called him that. So, now I just call him "Shaft".

Ok, lets rephrase the Mann problem. Collateral and Miami Vice suffer from the "helpless character that happens to represent the same sex and race in both movies always tries to sink the film" syndrome.

In Miami Vice it's only dull and cliche that a main character's girlfriend gets kidnapped. But in Collateral? There's 4 million people in LA. How likely is it that this cab driver gives a girl a ride, then later the same day he picks up an assassin that is meant to kill that same girl. And then the film really sinks when the main character suddenly turns into superman.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 24 Feb 2009, 19:20

HungFist wrote:lol, I love it how mentioning a person's skin color automatically makes you a racist.

It doesn't, how you say it does.

HungFist wrote:Exept if you're white and talking about white people. Or if you're black and talking about other black people.

I'd have said your comments were just as racist if you'd replaced black white white. Why? Because I fail to see how it's relevant. If you'd just said woman it would've made just as much sense.

HungFist wrote:Actually, a friend of mine often calls me "nigga". I would probably get arrested if I called him that. So, now I just call him "Shaft".

Yeah that one is weird. Certain sectors of black people use the N word far more than certain sectors of white people ever do.

HungFist wrote:Ok, lets rephrase the Mann problem. Collateral and Miami Vice suffer from the "helpless character that happens to represent the same sex and race in both movies always tries to sink the film" syndrome.

That's only two examples, out of all his movies though. I also disagree they try to sink the film or mann is trying to sink the film. You just dislike the choice made to include them. I disagree they sink the film at all.

HungFist wrote:In Miami Vice it's only dull and cliche that a main character's girlfriend gets kidnapped.

Miami Vice is chocker block with cliches and you reckon this is the worst one?

HungFist wrote:But in Collateral? There's 4 million people in LA. How likely is it that this cab driver gives a girl a ride,

It's a MOVIE

.

HungFist wrote:And then the film really sinks when the main character suddenly turns into superman.

I'll give you that one, it is contrived.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 24 Feb 2009, 19:21

romerojpg wrote:Ali the film was not good at all, for me all that film did for me was make me dislike the real Ali a load, yup a racist, dickheaded, big headed, cheating twat by the end, not worth knowing about at all. Anyone who respects the man after that films an idiot. If it is true that is.

Did you skip chapters or watch the entire movie?

HungFist · Post by **HungFist** » 24 Feb 2009, 19:35

bradavon wrote: If you'd just said woman it would've made just as much sense.

That would make me a sovinist

bradavon wrote:
HungFist wrote:In Miami Vice it's only dull and cliche that a main character's girlfriend gets kidnapped.
Miami Vice is chocker block with cliches and you reckon this is the worst one?

It's the unenjoyable one.

bradavon wrote:
HungFist wrote:But in Collateral? There's 4 million people in LA. How likely is it that this cab driver gives a girl a ride,
It's a MOVIE .

Yes, but I felt that there was certain attempt for realism. And I really liked that aspect. That's why the silly unbelievable consiquences didn't blend in well.

romerojpg · Post by **romerojpg** » 24 Feb 2009, 19:52

Always the entire film, even when I hate it.

Not that I hated Ali, its worth a watch and I was entertained for its rnning time (if you can call it entertaining), it just replused me for some reasons and by the end I just kind of came away a little angry at Ali the man, and then I reserched some of the things about him in a bit more detail and found the film was pretty right on in parts.

An Odd man is the way to describe Ali, so the film did highlight a lot of things I never knew about him.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 24 Feb 2009, 20:23

HungFist wrote:That would make me a sovinist

Yep, you're officially screwed.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 24 Feb 2009, 20:45

Ali was racist in a way (or derogatory at least) to George Foreman (I think?) - wasn't Ali accusing him of being a white guy's lackey?

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 24 Feb 2009, 21:43

grim_tales wrote:Ali was racist in a way (or derogatory at least) to George Foreman (I think?) - wasn't Ali accusing him of being a white guy's lackey?

Don't you mean Patterson!? Or maybe Joe Frazier?
Don't know about Ali insulting Foreman in that way, apart from calling him a 'mummy' and all kinds of juvenile things, which were mostly just for fun and to rile shit up.