More Argento Blu-Rays coming from Arrow...

Discuss High-Definition Technology & Releases
User avatar
HungFist
Bruce Lee's Fist
Posts: 11932
Joined: 14 Dec 2005, 15:50
Location: Japan

Re: More Argento Blu-Rays coming from Arrow...

Post by HungFist »

Markgway wrote:
HungFist wrote:Why is English somehow preferrable? Subtitle phobia?
Yes, that's it. You've figured me all out. I have a fear of subtitles. That's why I've watched almost 2,000 subtitled movies in my life - my inate FEAR of subtitles. Congrats, Dr. Freud. :thumbs:
Just tested if I'd get that "lost visual information" argument.
Markgway wrote:Why would English language for an English language movie be preferable to dubbed Italian with English subtitles? Gee, I dunno. Give me a hint...
Because someone likes the Italian track more. Is it that difficult to understand?

The situation here is pretty similar to if John Woo had decided to dub A Better Tomorrow in Mandarin and call that the correct language. It would still have played in HK in Cantonese, and I wouldn't be surprised if many fans would also prefer to see it that way.

You said that the latter is a pretentious argument. That sounds like something Disney executives would say. To me it's very understandable that if you're interested in a certain country's culture, you also like to see their films as they played in that country, rather than the foreigner friendly export version.
User avatar
Markgway
Bruce Lee's Fist
Posts: 20194
Joined: 18 Feb 2005, 02:04

Re: More Argento Blu-Rays coming from Arrow...

Post by Markgway »

HungFist wrote:Because someone likes the Italian track more. Is it that difficult to understand?
If they don't speak Italian? Yes.

Would I prefer to watch Rush Hour 2 in Cantonese because of Chris Tucker's annoying voice? No. It's an English film. Doesn't really matter where it was filmed.
The situation here is pretty similar to if John Woo had decided to dub A Better Tomorrow in Mandarin and call that the correct language. It would still have played in HK in Cantonese, and I wouldn't be surprised if many fans would also prefer to see it that way.
The chances of Woo shooting any movie in Cantonese then post-dubbing it into Mandarin as "original language" are so remote that it's a point not even worth addressing.

Unless you speak fluent Cantonese I can't imagine why you would prefer to watch a Mandarin film that way. But that's just me.
You said that the latter is a pretentious argument. That sounds like something Disney executives would say. To me it's very understandable that if you're interested in a certain country's culture, you also like to see their films as they played in that country, rather than the foreigner friendly export version.
That argument doesn't hold water. If you were talking about an Italian production spoken in Italian I would agree 100%. But with Argento that's simply not the case. He intended those movies to be in English. If you feel that's a betrayal of his culture so be it. But it doesn't change fact. I'm interested in Hong Kong Cinema and culture but would I prefer to watch Who Am I? in Cantonese simply because it's a Hong Kong production? Nope.

You can keep arguing here... but you're wrong.
Image
User avatar
HungFist
Bruce Lee's Fist
Posts: 11932
Joined: 14 Dec 2005, 15:50
Location: Japan

Re: More Argento Blu-Rays coming from Arrow...

Post by HungFist »

Markgway wrote:
HungFist wrote:Because someone likes the Italian track more. Is it that difficult to understand?
If they don't speak Italian? Yes.
Now, this makes no sense at all. You say that it's understandable that people who speak Italian would prefer to watch these movies in the wrong language, but people who speak English would always prefer to watch them in the correct language. Italians stupid or what? Or is it, after all, that you do actually prefer audio over subtitles, and this factor affects on your preference* for English audio (aka your native language)?
Markgway wrote:Would I prefer to watch Rush Hour 2 in Cantonese because of Chris Tucker's annoying voice? No. It's an English film. Doesn't really matter where it was filmed.
Yes, but I believe everyone in Rush Hour 2 actually spoke English, spoke their own lines, and if I'm not completely mistaken, the film even played in English in it's native country.

My comparisons are not the best, but yours are seriously far off.
Markgway wrote:
HungFist wrote:You said that the latter is a pretentious argument. That sounds like something Disney executives would say. To me it's very understandable that if you're interested in a certain country's culture, you also like to see their films as they played in that country, rather than the foreigner friendly export version.
That argument doesn't hold water. If you were talking about an Italian production spoken in Italian I would agree 100%. But with Argento that's simply not the case. He intended those movies to be in English. If you feel that's a betrayal of his culture so be it. But it doesn't change fact. I'm interested in Hong Kong Cinema and culture but would I prefer to watch Who Am I? in Cantonese simply because it's a Hong Kong production? Nope.

You can keep arguing here... but you're wrong.
Again, Who Am I probably played in English in HK, but in case it played in Cantonese, then the comparison would be accurate. Yes, I was referring to such case. And no, I wouldn't watch it in Cantonese myself. As I stated before, the Argento films discussed here I also wouldn't watch in Italian. I'm discussing from a neutral perspective here.

* The reason why I always get into this discussion with you is that, no matter if it's dubs or movie violence, you have a habit of considering your personal opinion the general truth, and deny all other views or call them wrong, even declare other people violent maniacs just because their opinions of movies differ from yours.

Speaking of movie violence, I finally did watch Grotesque tonight and will be writing my review as soon as I find time.
romerojpg
Bruce Lee's Fist
Posts: 8520
Joined: 26 Oct 2004, 13:12
Location: CLOSE TO YOUR MAMMA

Re: More Argento Blu-Rays coming from Arrow...

Post by romerojpg »

Well done :lol:
User avatar
Markgway
Bruce Lee's Fist
Posts: 20194
Joined: 18 Feb 2005, 02:04

Re: More Argento Blu-Rays coming from Arrow...

Post by Markgway »

HungFist wrote:Now, this makes no sense at all. You say that it's understandable that people who speak Italian would prefer to watch these movies in the wrong language, but people who speak English would always prefer to watch them in the correct language. Italians stupid or what? Or is it, after all, that you do actually prefer audio over subtitles, and this factor affects on your preference* for English audio (aka your native language)?
I don't have much clue what you're talking about. But I'll take a stab at answering regardless...

I prefer to watch movies in Original language with English subtitles. In the case of A Better Tomorrow that would be Cantonese. For Argento films that would be English so I've no need for subs. Many filmgoers prefer to watch films in their own language even if that means dubbing - obviously I'm not one of them. Therefore an English speaker may want to see an English dubbed version of A Better Tomorrow and an Italian might want to see an Italian dubbed version of Tenebre. These fans don't care what the original language is. However -- what I've rarely heard of is an English native who doesn't speak Italian wanting to watch an English language film in Italian. It makes no sense whatsoever. I don't think I can be any clearer than that.
Yes, but I believe everyone in Rush Hour 2 actually spoke English, spoke their own lines, and if I'm not completely mistaken, the film even played in English in it's native country.
The majority of the cast in Argento films spoke English (the ones who didn't were in the minority). The films were shot silent (ala Hong Kong) and so professional dubbers were used to get rid of those pesky Italian accents. This is what gives them a stilted quality. Italian dubs were created in the studio at the same time exclusively for local audiences because the producers cared about this market not because the Italian language was more important to the film. Take Suspiria - Jesscia Harper, Joan Bennett, and Alida Valli all spoke English and dubbed their own voices (some scenes were actually shot sync). Why would you possibly want to see it in Italian? Answers on a postcard... I don't know how Rush Hour 2 played in HK but it was probably English with Chinese subs.
My comparisons are not the best, but yours are seriously far off.
At least I'm trying to find genuine examples rather than making up rubbish about John Woo dubbing Cantonese into Mandarin(!)
Again, Who Am I probably played in English in HK, but in case it played in Cantonese, then the comparison would be accurate.
I think it played primarily in English with the Tribal scenes (oddly) redubbed into Cantonese.
I'm discussing from a neutral perspective here.
Nothing wrong with a bit of devil's advocate but I'm doing my best to explain here and it's not working... lol
The reason why I always get into this discussion with you is that, no matter if it's dubs or movie violence, you have a habit of considering your personal opinion the general truth, and deny all other views or call them wrong, even declare other people violent maniacs just because their opinions of movies differ from yours.
My opinions are true to me. Just as yours are to you. If I didn't believe in what I was saying why would I say it? If Podboy wants to watch Argento in Italian he can go right ahead. I'm just explaining why I think he's wrong to do so. Actually in this case - unlike the more subjective case of torture porn - I'm dealing with facts. It's not my opinion about what language these films were shot in. It's fact. You can either choose to believe me or think I'm lying - there's only so much I can say. If you're unsure do your own research.
Speaking of movie violence, I finally did watch Grotesque tonight and will be writing my review as soon as I find time.
Rather you than me. :dontknow:
Image
gasteropod
Bruce Lee's Fist
Posts: 6868
Joined: 03 Nov 2004, 18:16

Re: More Argento Blu-Rays coming from Arrow...

Post by gasteropod »

But if the Argento films were dubbed into both English and Italian, then why do you say that their original language is English? For a lot of his films on IMDb and Wikipedia it says both English and Italian as the film's language. So I'm just choosing Italian, I'm perfectly cool with agreeing that the films have two original languages.
gasteropod
Bruce Lee's Fist
Posts: 6868
Joined: 03 Nov 2004, 18:16

Re: More Argento Blu-Rays coming from Arrow...

Post by gasteropod »

And looking again now, it actually says Italian for some of them! (Not Italian/English)
User avatar
Shingster
Bruce Lee's Fist
Posts: 4140
Joined: 08 Sep 2006, 10:14

Re: More Argento Blu-Rays coming from Arrow...

Post by Shingster »

Most of these films were made as English films intended for an American audience, we all know this to be true so there's not THAT much difference to you saying "why watch Rush Hour in English, it was dubbed into German in Germany". Funnily enough though Argento films probably aren't the best examples for Mark to argue his case as he and Bava (another director who definitely targeted international audiences) were pretty much the only Horror directors who found success in their native land - even though that success was still fairly modest compared to their international success - so there is an argument to be made that these directors MAY (and I say that only as a theoretical "may") have been aiming at local audiences as well. At the end of the day though we should be treating these films as American films as that was how they were made.

Saying that I can see the logic in watching these films in an Italian dub because as you say Gastero the acting in these films was generally pretty awful (I blame Argento more than the performers), and it's certainly a lot harder to pick up on bad acting in a language you don't understand. I just don't believe you can complain massively when an English company puts out these films in English with no Italian dub, as they've satisfied their obligation to provide these films in the way they were originally made and released. Ideally any good and thorough release of Argento's films should have the Italian dub, but arguments for an Italian dub would be no different to a Frenchman complaining there's no French dub provided. It's a case of tough titty, wait for the French release as far as I'm concerned.
gasteropod
Bruce Lee's Fist
Posts: 6868
Joined: 03 Nov 2004, 18:16

Re: More Argento Blu-Rays coming from Arrow...

Post by gasteropod »

Nah I'm glad that Arrow include the Italian tracks when possible, I understand that these films are generally watched in English so I don't begrudge distributors for not including them, but I merely hope that releases do.
User avatar
HungFist
Bruce Lee's Fist
Posts: 11932
Joined: 14 Dec 2005, 15:50
Location: Japan

Re: More Argento Blu-Rays coming from Arrow...

Post by HungFist »

Markgway wrote:Rather you than me. :dontknow:
:D

Just what I've been trying to say here is that although English is the "correct" language for these films, the comparison between Italian and French dub is not fair, because:
- Argento's films were Italian movies
- Argento's films played in Italian in Italy
- They only became English language movies in the post production, rather than all the actors being English speakers who do their own voices.

Clearly those are factors to be taken into consideration. Maybe you could say that although English is the "correct" language, both Italian and English are "original languages". Clearly we have languages here in three groups, English in the first one (the right one), Italian in the second one (the kinda right one, or wrong according to some"), and everything else in the third one (the completely wrong ones).

I believe the whole discussion started when Mark thought it was elitism to choose IT track, and then me and gas tried to point out that, at least in our case, it's purely a personal decision... he wants to see some of these in Italian because he prerers the voice acting on those tracks. I prefer Suspiria in Italian because that's how I've always seen in (the reason being, when I first saw the film I had no English track available, the film was presented in Italian). Plus I do occasionally prefer to watch Italian movies in Italian just for the fact that Italian audio makes them feel more Italian (and I've always been interested in cultural experiences).

ok, probably enough about this topic as far as I'm concerned :)
User avatar
Markgway
Bruce Lee's Fist
Posts: 20194
Joined: 18 Feb 2005, 02:04

Re: More Argento Blu-Rays coming from Arrow...

Post by Markgway »

it's certainly a lot harder to pick up on bad acting in a language you don't understand
So what language should I watch Keanu Reeves films in then? :D
Maybe you could say that although English is the "correct" language, both Italian and English are "original languages".
Sorry, but I can't go along with that...

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
Image
User avatar
Shingster
Bruce Lee's Fist
Posts: 4140
Joined: 08 Sep 2006, 10:14

Re: More Argento Blu-Rays coming from Arrow...

Post by Shingster »

Markgway wrote:
it's certainly a lot harder to pick up on bad acting in a language you don't understand
So what language should I watch Keanu Reeves films in then? :D
In Dutch....played backwards just to make sure! :icon_suspect:
User avatar
HungFist
Bruce Lee's Fist
Posts: 11932
Joined: 14 Dec 2005, 15:50
Location: Japan

Re: More Argento Blu-Rays coming from Arrow...

Post by HungFist »

saltysam wrote:Is Inferno still cut these days?
Markgway wrote:Inferno is currently still BBFC cut.

Two cuts--
1. A Cat being bashed against a chair.
2. A Cat eating a mouse.
Inferno cut no more. People from the Cult Labs forum emailed BBFC and managed to convince them to pass Inferno uncut.

http://www.cult-labs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2995
http://www.dvdmaniacs.net/forums/showth ... post812261
User avatar
Markgway
Bruce Lee's Fist
Posts: 20194
Joined: 18 Feb 2005, 02:04

Re: More Argento Blu-Rays coming from Arrow...

Post by Markgway »

That's bizarre. Why would the BBFC change their mind just because members of a forum emailed them and said "oi, no!!"? Unless someone was able to provide evidence that there wasn't any actual cruelty present in the to-be-cut shot. Hopefully when this submission is posted by the BBFC they'll elaborate.
Image
gasteropod
Bruce Lee's Fist
Posts: 6868
Joined: 03 Nov 2004, 18:16

Re: More Argento Blu-Rays coming from Arrow...

Post by gasteropod »

Sweet!
User avatar
Markgway
Bruce Lee's Fist
Posts: 20194
Joined: 18 Feb 2005, 02:04

Re: More Argento Blu-Rays coming from Arrow...

Post by Markgway »

Doesn't even mention any reconsideration.

http://www.bbfc.co.uk/website/Classifie ... enDocument
Image
gasteropod
Bruce Lee's Fist
Posts: 6868
Joined: 03 Nov 2004, 18:16

Re: More Argento Blu-Rays coming from Arrow...

Post by gasteropod »

saltysam
Bruce Lee's Fist
Posts: 9357
Joined: 27 Oct 2004, 18:27

Re: More Argento Blu-Rays coming from Arrow...

Post by saltysam »

Should have my copy Monday.
working class blu-ray fan
User avatar
Markgway
Bruce Lee's Fist
Posts: 20194
Joined: 18 Feb 2005, 02:04

Re: More Argento Blu-Rays coming from Arrow...

Post by Markgway »

I believe Tenebre has been delayed.

Possibly until next year?
Image
gasteropod
Bruce Lee's Fist
Posts: 6868
Joined: 03 Nov 2004, 18:16

Re: More Argento Blu-Rays coming from Arrow...

Post by gasteropod »

I think Inferno's the only one that was officially due, the others are more like possible upcoming releases if this one sells well, but retailers listed them anyway.
gasteropod
Bruce Lee's Fist
Posts: 6868
Joined: 03 Nov 2004, 18:16

Re: More Argento Blu-Rays coming from Arrow...

Post by gasteropod »

saltysam wrote:Should have my copy Monday.
Checked it out yet?
saltysam
Bruce Lee's Fist
Posts: 9357
Joined: 27 Oct 2004, 18:27

Re: More Argento Blu-Rays coming from Arrow...

Post by saltysam »

nope,still hasn't arrived :|
working class blu-ray fan
gasteropod
Bruce Lee's Fist
Posts: 6868
Joined: 03 Nov 2004, 18:16

Re: More Argento Blu-Rays coming from Arrow...

Post by gasteropod »

Ahh OK, it seems to be getting good reviews but some people think it's too dark.
gasteropod
Bruce Lee's Fist
Posts: 6868
Joined: 03 Nov 2004, 18:16

Re: More Argento Blu-Rays coming from Arrow...

Post by gasteropod »

User avatar
Markgway
Bruce Lee's Fist
Posts: 20194
Joined: 18 Feb 2005, 02:04

Re: More Argento Blu-Rays coming from Arrow...

Post by Markgway »

Lol @ the naked ass on the new cover art.

Lol @ the bendy knife thru the guy's throat (see caps)
Image