Boy in Liverpool shot, aged 11.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 06 Sep 2007, 15:02

With today's funeral of young Rhys aged 11 I was thinking a discussion was in order. For those who don't know he was shot in the head a few weeks ago by some Liverpool Gang. It's thought the gang shot the wrong target as it's said Rhys wasn't in a gang.

While it's good the police are arresting so many people to try and find his killer I cannot help thinking it's too little.

When an 11 year old kid gets shot by gang warfare why is there no zero tolerance policy? Why are the policy not raiding all the known homes of gang members? Even if they're not connected they'll all probably be housing illegal weapons. Instead of fire fighting for once do something serious to break up gangs.

Why is the government not making a bold statement that gang culture will not be tolerated. From another perspective why is the government doing nothing to give these young people something to do so they don't turn to violence?

Your thoughts?

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 06 Sep 2007, 15:23

I dont know.

I think youth who get involved into gangs are usually a result of poverty and local goverments not caring about those poor people. Plus schools in poor areas are usually also not all that great. So if you dont want this crap happening, you should fight poverty, and make sure communities are not left to their own devices.

Now that it's too late though, I agree with you. Gangs and gangmembers should be hunted down and raided etc. I dont know how the police works in England, but here in Holland the majority of the police are pussies who care more about speeding and traffic tickets, than they do about actually taking action against scummy bastards.

Sorry to hear about the kid. I heard about it 2 weeks orso ago? Late funeral.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 06 Sep 2007, 15:59

I would guess the police need to do checks on the body before it can be released. The police are often the same here, unless something so great happens it touches the public nationally.

I do wonder why the government (in any country) never seems capable of stopping poverty. Sure it's not easy but as you say that's the root cause.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 06 Sep 2007, 19:37

They should execute the killers.

Would send a simple message: you take a life you lose yours.

That's the only language these scumbags understand.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 06 Sep 2007, 22:52

I wouldn't go that far, where would it end?

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 06 Sep 2007, 23:30

bradavon wrote:I wouldn't go that far, where would it end?

Probably with all bastards shot dead. Personally, I wouldnt miss them. But obviously, the plan isnt gonna happen.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 06 Sep 2007, 23:55

bradavon wrote:I wouldn't go that far, where would it end?

With less scum out there willing to kill people at random.

If you thought stabbing someone to death for a laugh would see you with a noose around your neck would you still do it?

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 07 Sep 2007, 00:48

The problem MIGHT be that these guys aren't thinking.

But yeah, treating these criminals so softly as they are being treated nowadays (in Holland it's a joke), isnt gonna help matters either.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 07 Sep 2007, 00:50

Obviously they do that in some countries but what about miscarriages of justice? It's a bit late when the innocent person is dead.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 07 Sep 2007, 02:50

Yi-Long wrote:The problem MIGHT be that these guys aren't thinking.

They know what they're doing and they know they can get away with it.

You can murder someone in the street and get a few years, less if you're under 18.

If you knew taking a life meant giving up your own I gurantee you these incidents would drop by a staggering amount in a short space of time.

Also make carrying an unpackage knife an offence immediately punishable by a minimum of five years.

Would you carry a knife if you knew a random stop and search could see you behind bars for half a decade?

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 07 Sep 2007, 09:24

Tragic

Yeah all right Mark, they won't murder anymore if they're dead, but I do find the idea of punishing murder with what is, in effect, another form of murder, hypocritical. As Brad says what about miscarriges of justice? As you've said yourself, to execute someone who may be innocent is far worse than allowing a guilty person to live.
And what about scum like the suicide bombers who committ mass murder? Should they be killed too? I certainly wouldn't miss them, except death is probably what those guys want as they think they're getting into paradise

I do agree though 1) There should be much harsher punishments 2) Look into the person's state of mind, why would they do this? Wouldn't this stop it happening again?

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 07 Sep 2007, 18:46

grim_tales wrote:Yeah all right Mark, they won't murder anymore if they're dead, but I do find the idea of punishing murder with what is, in effect, another form of murder, hypocritical.

Doesn't The Bible say "an eye for an eye"? Our justice system is based on Christian law.

Surely the only acceptable punishment for murder is murder (officially: execution)?

Anything less means that no matter what you do you deserve to live and I don't agree with that.

If some scum bludgeons a granny to death and then rapes her corpse (and yes this HAS happened) should the worst that happens to him be a "life" sentence (life usually meaning around 10-12 years before a bunch of bleeding hearts give them parole).

As Brad says what about miscarriges of justice? As you've said yourself, to execute someone who may be innocent is far worse than allowing a guilty person to live.

Guilt in a case where execution is punishment should have to be 100% certain, anything less would mean LIFE (as in your 75 of whatever years) behind bars. The evidence would have to be beyond compelling.

And what about scum like the suicide bombers who committ mass murder? Should they be killed too?

I'm sorry, I shouldn't laugh, it's a serious subject, but did you actually READ that sentence before posting???

Look into the person's state of mind, why would they do this? Wouldn't this stop it happening again?

Once you've taken someone's life you can't "become good" and give it back. There is no second chance. You've taken all someone had and all they'll ever have. I someone murdered me it wouldn't matter if the killer spent the next 60 years as a missionary in Ethiopia, because I wouldn't be alive to know about it. My precious life would be gone. Many people who argue for leniency seem to forget that. They seem to think that victims are always "someone else" or that crimes happen to "other people".

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 07 Sep 2007, 19:30

Markgway wrote:Would you carry a knife if you knew a random stop and search could see you behind bars for half a decade?

Somebody's been watching to many 1984esque movies

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 07 Sep 2007, 19:31

Mark, yes I read that sentence. Now I look back at it, it reads badly. Of course they should die, but what I meant (look further down) was FOR THEM death isn't a punishment. Theyre not afraid to die, they even WANT to die in some cases as they think they get into paradise. What then?
You wouldn't be alive, but your family would be, depends what they believe.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 07 Sep 2007, 22:24

bradavon wrote:Somebody's been watching to many 1984esque movies

Why because I believe the public should be protected from knife-carrying hooligans? I suppose you'd give them a trip to the zoo.

grim_tales wrote:Mark, yes I read that sentence. Now I look back at it, it reads badly. Of course they should die, but what I meant (look further down) was FOR THEM death isn't a punishment. Theyre not afraid to die, they even WANT to die in some cases as they think they get into paradise. What then? You wouldn't be alive, but your family would be, depends what they believe.

Hmm... no I don't think you get it yet.

Try again.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 08 Sep 2007, 09:01

So good you've made it your sig

For someone so anti religious I'm surprised you believe what the Bible says on this issue. I absolutely agree with the need for harsher punishment for someone who commits crime, depending on the severity of the crime, the age of the person etc. No disputing that. I just don't think I agree with the death penalty.
What about if the person commits manslaughter?
Those bastards who killed a grandfather should be punished also, they should be imprisoned for life (so that it means it) and made to think of what they've done.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 08 Sep 2007, 12:58

Markgway wrote:Why because I believe the public should be protected from knife-carrying hooligans? I suppose you'd give them a trip to the zoo.

Please I suppose you've not bothered to read my initial post?

The Zoo? That's the polar opposite of sending someone to jail for 5 years. I thought we only had one whacko on this forum (Romero) . I guess not

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 08 Sep 2007, 13:29

grim_tales wrote:For someone so anti religious I'm surprised you believe what the Bible says on this issue.

I couldn't care less what The Bible or any other "God book" says. I just threw that in for argument's sake as UK law is based on Christian law.

I just don't think I agree with the death penalty.

Which is your right... I just happen to disagree.

What about if the person commits manslaughter?

No, not for manslaughter. Should only be if the intent was to kill. If you stab someone (in the stomach, say) that to me would count as intent.

Those bastards who killed a grandfather should be punished also, they should be imprisoned for life (so that it means it) and made to think of what they've done.

As much as I hate those little bastards I wouldn't execute children. They deliberately acted in a way that was reckless and dangerous and must be severly punished. They'll probably spend a few years in a holiday camp (sorry, young offenders institution) but I would see them behind bars at least until they're 21. We must set an example and send a message that violence and thugish behaviour will not be tolerated from anyone. That's the ONLY way society will improve for decent people.

saltysam · Post by **saltysam** » 08 Sep 2007, 16:50

This happened a few miles from where i live,i know the area well.it's always been plagued by gangs and this has been a tragedy that's been waiting to happen for years. the poor lad was sadly in the wrong place at the wrong time.from what i hear the bullet richoched off a car then hit rhys.

i was the liverpool football match the other week when his parents came on the pitch and LFC played the everton theme song.very moving and so sad

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 08 Sep 2007, 17:48

That is indeed sad and interesting to hear a different take, you don't hear in the news. I didn't know about the car bit.