BBFC strikes again: Grotesque banned

[HungFist]

Still protecting people from evil movies.


The cover art is ready, but the dvd ain't coming out. It's illeagal to sell or own this film in the UK.

- http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20090819/tu ... 23e80.html
- http://www.avmaniacs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39603
- http://www.bbfc.co.uk/website/Classifie ... enDocument

Reminds me of how people were arrested and sent to court for owing Guinea Pig films in the 80's / 90's.

Maybe they should really look in the mirror and try to figure out what the real problem is.

Japan's got the sickest, most violent and sexist entertainment industry in the world. Japanese video games are censored for the western market (Ninja Gaiden being a famous example). Cannibal Holocaus was a video rental hit that beat Spielberg's ET. Rapeman is their superhero. A lot of Japanese manga can't be released outside the country because it would be illeagal.

And you know what? Japan's got some of the lowest crime statistics in the world? You can go to Tokyo and walk around in the middle of the night alone and be perfectly safe.

Isn't it time to realize a normal adult doesn't turn into a psychopath while watching a 90 minute movie. No doubt someone saw Commando and went out killing people after it. But he was already insane. If he had not seen Commando, he would have seen The Roadrunner on TV and then start killing people with a sledge hammer. Or he read a poem he couldn't understand and stated killing people out of frustration. Perhaps he heard a christian song and all the love started pissing him off. Maybe he didn't like Mona Lisa's face and decided to kill the museum staff.

Lets ban Commando. Let's ban The Roadrunner. Lets ban poetry and christianity. Lets burn Mona Lisa. The world will finally be safe.

[Markgway]

I'm not saying that these torture porn films should be banned... but why would anyone want to watch them? I have no probs with graphic violence or torture in a movie if it serves a narrative or moral purpose... but if that's the film's raison d'etre you have to ask yourself what kind of pleasure or thrill you're getting watching (usually) innocent people suffer horribly?

[HungFist]

In some other topic we had this conversation already. Some people like scary movies. It's that simple. They may not care about ghost films because they think ghosts are childish. They've seen so many violent films that Friday the 13th feels like a children's movie. So they watch Guinea Pig or Grotesque to get the ultimate, gripping horror movie experience that will churn their stomach and scare the shit out of them.

Just like with action films. One guy thinks James Bond is disgustingly violent. But the other guy says Bond is nothing, he's watching Schwarzenegger. And then there's a third guy who says Schwarzenegger is light weight stuff, he's watching Hard Boiled. And the Bond fan tries to watch Hard Boiled and he can't see anything good about it; it's so disgustingly violent and brutal in his eyes that he can feel no enjoyment watching it. Or he thinks such violent films are ridiculous. He's a pg-13 action guy. That's ok. People are different, and with different limits.

Another reason to watch films like Grotesque is simply the technical aspect. I, too, am interested in seeing how believable and well done the special effects are? Have they come up with something I've never seen before? Something that makes me go "Holy shit, how did they do that? It looks so real". Or does it look real at all. Is there a making of documentary on the dvd?

[Shingster]

The cover art is ready, but the dvd ain't coming out. It's illeagal to sell or own this film in the UK.

It's illegal to sell the film in stores, but it should be ok to import it.

[romerojpg]

Illegal makes it sound like they will lock you up you would not even get a slap on the hands for owning it.

[bradavon]

Japanese society makes it safe, their respect for elders, respect for family etc... not movies. Japan is an odd example they. They consider normal, many, many things pretty much every other country certainly does not.

I hate it when films are banned. Slap an 18 rating on it and be done with it. Any idea why it's been banned? Nothing here:

http://www.bbfc.org.uk/website/Classifi ... enDocument

Why do you really care btw? You live in Finland.

Illegal makes it sound like they will lock you up you would not even get a slap on the hands for owning it.

Not importing it maybe but if you managed to get hold of a UK DVD you would. It's an illegal product, that they're not allowed to sell.

Isn't it time to realize a normal adult doesn't turn into a psychopath while watching a 90 minute movie.

This won't be the primary reason it's banned. The BBFC have very little control stopping minors watching 15/18 rated movies. We've all watched movies, we're not supposed to as kids.

[Markgway]

In some other topic we had this conversation already.

Right, about Martyrs. But if the BBFC have banned this one, it's clearly very sick shit indeed (as they've hardly banned anything in the last decade).

Some people like scary movies. It's that simple.

These films are not the slightest bit scary. They're designed to disgust and repel. Hacking off a woman's nipples is not scary it's disgusting.

They may not care about ghost films because they think ghosts are childish.

Are films like The Changeling, The Haunting, The Orphanage, Poltergeist, etc childish? I never thought so. There's nothing "grown up" about torture.

They've seen so many violent films that Friday the 13th feels like a children's movie.

Which is absurd. And if anyone thinks Friday the 13th is for children they seriously need to question their judgement. It is easy to become desensitised to violence. If it wasn't we wouldn't watch half the R-rated films we do. But I'm not talking about exploding zombies or blood-sucking vampires... the whole point of films such as Grotesque is that it's human characters suffering and in the most realistic manner possible (often sexualised for added perversion). Every scream of pain, every peel of flesh, is supposed to give the viewer a cheap thrill. I honestly don't get it. And unlinke many nay-sayers I've seen this type of movie myself.

So they watch Guinea Pig or Grotesque to get the ultimate, gripping horror movie experience that will churn their stomach and scare the shit out of them.

We've established they aren't scary... Gripping? Debatable. Stomach-churning? Certainly. Do you subscribe to this view HungFist or are you playing Devil's Advocate?

Just like with action films...

Action films can be violent as fuck. You mention Hard-Boiled. But as graphic as they are they never dwell on the pain and suffering of innocents and actively encourage the audience to "enjoy" this. When innocents suffer or are killed we're meant to feel bad not exhilirated. It's a springboard so that the morally righteous hero (or anti-hero if he's a criminal dealing with worse than himself) can seek out justice and make the bad guys pay for what they've done. This kind of morality is never present in torture porn films because they either cannot mutually co-exist or no filmmaker has cared enough to bother trying.

Another reason to watch films like Grotesque is simply the technical aspect. I, too, am interested in seeing how believable and well done the special effects are? Have they come up with something I've never seen before? Something that makes me go "Holy shit, how did they do that? It looks so real". Or does it look real at all. Is there a making of documentary on the dvd?

Seems an awfully high price to pay just to see some gruesome make-up effects. If I cared that much about horror makeup I'd skip the film and just watch the documentary. Sometimes it's not about what you can do but whether you should do? At what point when I'm watching a woman be skinned or eviscerated do I say ENOUGH?

[gasteropod]

I thought the BBFC was an independent organisation, so how can it be illegal?

[bradavon]

I've got to completely agree with Mark here. He's put it very well.

The idea of ever wanting to watch a women's tits get cut off just disgusts me. There are several films I've not seen because they "linger" on rape. I had real trouble sitting through Straw Dogs. I've not even mentioned all the other disgusting aspects of "this sort" of movie.

I don't understand why you'd want to watch such films? You must be really desensitised to violence. Not that it should be banned mind you, release it uncut at 18. As stated.

I thought the BBFC was an independent organisation, so how can it be illegal?

Because it's a illegal to sell DVDs/Videos/BDs without any certificate period (which includes E). They're independent but the government puts them in control of administering certificates. No certificate, it's illegal.

[Markgway]

I thought the BBFC was an independent organisation, so how can it be illegal?

The Video Recordings Act of 1984, brought in the wake of the Video Nasties scandal, makes it illegal to supply any film not granted a BBFC certificate. There was a time when this was a big deal and you could land in jail, but very unlikely now. At worst any supplier would get a fine or a caution.

[bradavon]

I said just that 4 minutes earlier .

[Markgway]

The rape scene in Straw Dogs isn't particularly graphic or disturbing... it was problematic because Susan George is shown to begin enjoying it (the first rapist is an ex-boyfriend) and the censors originally felt that this endorsed the "myth" that women secretly enjoyed being raped. I say "myth" because I've no idea if a woman can feel turned on during a rape under certain circumstances. Does the nature of force automatically remove any sexual gratification on the part of the victim? Complex subject and worthy of debate.

[romerojpg]

Illegal makes it sound like they will lock you up you would not even get a slap on the hands for owning it.

Not importing it maybe but if you managed to get hold of a UK DVD you would. It's an illegal product, that they're not allowed to sell.

They cannot do anything to you at all as a person (if you are a company thats different), unless it's kiddie porn or really sicko porn they do not do anything to anyone ever, even to make an example of someone.
Even pirates no one does anything to you for owning, unless you are selling hundreds of thousands of copies, even then you can get away with nothing more than a slap on the wrist.

Basically anything is game, within reason. This is a little film, not one cop in the country gives a crap about such things and never will.

All this media attention is doing the film FREE ADVERTSIING on an epic scale. It will now sell loads becuase of this ban, which is a shame as it is obviously a total load of shit, yes I have not seen it, but hey normal folk would spit in you in the street for watching it. As they should.

Next up The Bests of Rape, all your fave rape scenes from the classics editid into one. Vile.

[Markgway]

I said just that 4 minutes earlier .

Yes, but your comment was vague in comparison to mine. So I thought I'd clarify with detail.

[bradavon]

Of course they can get you Romero. They just wouldn't bother, like you say, as you're an individual.

Do we know why it was banned?

Yes, but your comment was vague in comparison to mine. So I thought I'd clarify with detail.

I say different things to you, so yours is just as vague .

[romerojpg]

Of course they can get you Romero. They just wouldn't bother, like you say, as you're an individual.

They would not bother as they know they would loose anything they did.

You have more chance of winning the lottery then getting done for owning an unrated film, so are they going to get everyone who imports an american DVD? not a chance in hell ever

If they took your to court, they would be laffed at by the law.

[HungFist]

I wrote a long post explaining the same thing 17 times in two paragraphs and Mark didn't understand a word. And Brad says he completely agrees.

The whole point was that people are different. You may feel disgusted watching something like Groteque, but the guy next door is laughing all along. He think it's so silly these guys are playing with fake blood and creating hilarious gore effects. To him, there isn't anything offending about the film. It's as far off as The Roadrunner.

And then there is the other guy who thinks Groteque is the scaries horror film ever made. I know you don't think like that, but please try to understand people are different and find different things scary, funny, enjoyable. Some people don't even like scary movies because they've got enough misery in their real life. But the other guy is a rich spoiled kid living in the most safe country in the world and he enjoys a fictional horror experience.

I haven't seen Gretesque or Guinea Pigs myself. I'm not interested in seeing them, appart from slight interest for the technical aspect.

[bradavon]

@ Hung: And I said twice it should be released uncut and not banned, remember.

I still don't get why you care so much? These are British not Finish laws.

You have more chance of winning the lottery then getting done for owning an unrated film, so are they going to get everyone who imports an american DVD? not a chance in hell ever

You could get it stopped by customs, not fined or anything, just not allowed to keep it.

[gasteropod]

Do we know why it was banned?

Distributors of Japanese movie Grotesque had hoped to be given an 18 certificate for the film, which involves torture such as amputation and eye-gouging.

But the British Board of Film Classification said the film featured sexual sadism for its own sake. It said that giving the film a rating would involve a "risk of harm" to those viewing it.

Selling or supplying the film would now be illegal.

The BBFC rejects films only rarely, preferring to give advice about how appropriate cuts would achieve the preferred certificate.

The decision was taken by BBFC director, David Cooke and senior colleagues.

The board said the majority of the film focused on the assault, humiliation and torture of two victims. The main character takes them prisoner, restrains, strips and sexually assaults them before inflicting horrific injuries until they die.

Mr Cooke said: "Unlike other recent 'torture'-themed horror works, such as the Saw and Hostel series, Grotesque features minimal narrative or character development and presents the audience with little more than an unrelenting and escalating scenario of humiliation, brutality and sadism. The chief pleasure on offer seems to be in the spectacle of sadism (including sexual sadism) for its own sake."

The BBFC rates around 10,000 films for DVD release each year.

The last film which the BBFC rejected for an 18 certificate was the 2004 movie Murder Set Pieces, which was turned down last year. Until that, it had not refused an 18 rating since 2005 when the film Terrorists, Killers And Other Wackos - made up of real clips of execution and torture - was turned down.

[HungFist]

Japanese society makes it safe, their respect for elders, respect for family etc... not movies.

That was my point exactly. BBFC isn't changing anything by banning movies. The problem is elsewhere. You don't prevent people from commiting murders by banning knives. You prevent people from commiting murders by having a healthier society where people don't feel the need to kill each others (ironically, Japan's got the opposite problem. Their citizens are overly anctious to throw their own life away. And yes, they do have a fair share of other problems).

Of course, at this point it's not exactly an easy task to heal a society. I don't even know if it is possible.

Why do you really care btw? You live in Finland.

As a European I have to be ashamed of British stupidity

But the reason for starting this topic was the have some conversation. I don't really care what happens or doesn't happen in the UK.

Isn't it time to realize a normal adult doesn't turn into a psychopath while watching a 90 minute movie.

This won't be the primary reason it's banned. The BBFC have very little control stopping minors watching 15/18 rated movies. We've all watched movies, we're not supposed to as kids.

So BBFC need to ban the film from adults as well? They could ban alcohol and tocacco as well then.

[bradavon]

Thanks Gas. Interesting reasons there. At least we know why, unlike the rubbish MPAA. They're far, far worse in my book.

That was my point exactly.

I know. I'm largely agreeing with you.

So BBFC need to ban the film from adults as well? They could ban alcohol and tocacco as well then.

Sadly they have no choice. Adults are the ones who let children see under age films.

That's an unfair comparison. A fair comparison would be to ban all film. Which like banning all alcohol and tobacco wouldn't work. This is one film, not the entire industry, taking your example.

[grim_tales]

I think I agree with Mark too. I havent seen the movie of course, but the idea of some of those things sounds disgusting. I doubt I could watch. But ergo, I wouldn't watch. Should the film be banned? I don't think so.
As Mark said, if it was banned it must be REALLY bad/sick shit.

[bradavon]

As Mark said, if it was banned it must be REALLY bad/sick shit.

The text Gas. posted doesn't make it sound much worse than other passed titles but the point here (for the BBFC) is they had narrative and context. This apparently has neither.

[Shingster]

Because it's a illegal to sell DVDs/Videos/BDs without any certificate period (which includes E). They're independent but the government puts them in control of administering certificates. No certificate, it's illegal.

It's illegal for a UK Merchant to sell the product, it's not illegal for you the individual to order the title from a foreign e-tailer. The BBFC are just a censor board, they have no legal jurisdiction!

I don't understand why you'd want to watch such films?

Well in Grotesque's case I'll give you the main reason people will now want to watch it: Because the BBFC banned it! Notoriety is reason enough for many curious filmgoers.

[Shingster]

I thought the BBFC was an independent organisation, so how can it be illegal?

The Video Recordings Act of 1984, brought in the wake of the Video Nasties scandal, makes it illegal to supply any film not granted a BBFC certificate. There was a time when this was a big deal and you could land in jail, but very unlikely now. At worst any supplier would get a fine or a caution.

Repeating myself here, but it's worth reiterating for emphasis: Illegal for a UK Merchant to sell any film not granted a BBFC certificate. Some UK stores/e-tailers get round this loophole by acting as a personal import service, Play.com would be regularly fined up the Ying-Yang otherwise.

These films are not the slightest bit scary. They're designed to disgust and repel. Hacking off a woman's nipples is not scary it's disgusting.

I know I'm reiterating what Hung has already said here, but in fairness Mark you are making a subjective statement based on what you yourself find scary. I personally aggree that torture porn has no scare factor but it doesn't mean Mrs. Blogs down the road from me won't be frightened by the same content. For a lot of people the mere threat or act of violence is terrifying in itself, which is at least something these torture porn films can manage to tap into if done well.

It's a springboard so that the morally righteous hero (or anti-hero if he's a criminal dealing with worse than himself) can seek out justice and make the bad guys pay for what they've done. This kind of morality is never present in torture porn films because they either cannot mutually co-exist or no filmmaker has cared enough to bother trying.

Torture Porn was first used to describe the glut of new wave exploitation films that came with the success of films like Hostel, so I present Hostel as an example of torture porn that does show that kind of morality. To say there is no morality in any torture porn films is to suggest that you've seen and know every torture porn film out there - you may have an idea about their content and execution, but you don't know until you've watched the film. A good example is the recent palava over Antichrist with that Daily Mail critic who called for it to be banned without actually watching the film!