The Official "Dragon Dynasty" Thread!

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oldeschool17
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Re: The Official "Dragon Dynasty" Thread!

Post by oldeschool17 »

RickyTheDragonSteamboat wrote:Updated BD artwork for Fist of Legend
You can tell they put a lot of thought into that generic sky background. If they put a halo on top it woulda made Jet Li look like a biblical figure.
chenlung
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Re: The Official "Dragon Dynasty" Thread!

Post by chenlung »

bradavon wrote:"Good HD picture" is so open to subjective opinion. There's no way you (or Romero) will ever be happy. Perfection taking literally, simply isn't possible for these films and to expect so, is expecting too much. There's nothing "really" wrong with the DD DVDs (save for cuts maybe) but bitch you will still.

It just gets so dull to hear "all I expect is decent", when frankly that's bollocks. It's not as if we're talking Hollywood movies here. These films have been kept in such low quality and made on such low budgets. To expect perfection, is simply unrealistic. I don't mean just you Mark, Romero and others are just as far stuck up their own arses when it comes to expectations.
What I've been longing for is better in-sight into why distributors maybe limited, because it would be easier to be appreciative and understanding. Generally, there shouldn't really have to be intervention on quality issues (especially when there's supposed to be professionals there), but I've made contact with a number of them, because I'm concerned about the perception of the (usually misrepresented) genre, and want for there to be an improvement on quality (benefiting all parties involved - distributor/customer, etc).

The reviews and reports are out there about problematic DVDs, but people (either unaware or don't care) ignore them and claim the misconstrued criticisms to be "nit-picky" or "bitchy", but actually, it's a case of professionalism concerning usually frequent and blatant problems. The '5 Fingers Of Death' trailer (DD's 'King Boxer') on a standard PAL60 CRT TV set-up has a horrible strobe-light effect (I don't know why exactly, but I think it's to do with interlacing - a subject that has arisen in my posts).

To prove people can be happy, HKL's 'New Police Story' is an excellent DVD that I have no issue with (I don't think anyone else has either). There are a good number of other acceptable DVDs as well. DD's 'SPL' DVD was excellent and I would recommend it - it could have benefited a little from a translation check (as opposed to just remastering the current set for better legibility, which didn't seem too bad). Sadly, their Shaw DVDs were plagued with subtitle problems. Generally speaking about the main feature on the DD discs, there seems to have been no re-translation carried out - just either correcting existing sets or nothing (we're at the mercy of how good the previous ones are). I believe the intention was to re-translate them, but there was a problem.

We all rely on subtitles, and the poorer the quality, we won't be able to comprehend what's properly going on (especially if it's an elaborate film) and could misinterpret instead - not many people realise that (I didn't at first). Saltysam said 'Once Upon A Time In China And America' was better than the last time he remembered watching it (this was on the German DVD), and I believe that was most likely the result of better subtitles that not only re-launch its appeal, but represent the film properly, as intended. Talking about subtitles (http://www.flubtitles.com) - see gems from 'Righting Wrongs' such as "Quiet! I make." (...no sense - http://www.stomptokyo.com/img-m3/righting-wrongs-c.jpg). I'm told it should be "Quiet! I have a full house!"

From 'The Sword' (re-translation available on the double-feature German DVD with 'Last Hurrah For Chivalry'):

Original:

4
00:00:32,881 --> 00:00:36,647
You're excellent!

5
00:00:36,985 --> 00:00:38,145
No wonder...

6
00:00:38,319 --> 00:00:41,015
you're the best

Re-translation:

3
00:00:32,090 --> 00:00:36,214
Brother Wong, with your
extraordinary skill in the sword,

4
00:00:36,239 --> 00:00:37,773
it's no wonder that
in the underworld, they say:

5
00:00:37,818 --> 00:00:40,559
"There's the ten royal knights,
all wielding well-known swords."

It's heavily simplified and it goes largely out of sync too (it increases to about 35 seconds as we reach the end). That's no way for a highly regarded film (or any film really). That is just one example.
Take HKL's FOF PE for example. You bitched for years about FOF should be in Mandarin. The HKL PE gave us this but oh no, it was then suddenly too pink. Ignoring the fact, otherwise it looks fantastic. Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Yawn. Your expectations are so boringly OTT, I don't believe you'll ever be 100% happy.
It was brilliant they included the Mandarin soundtrack! Unfortunately, the modulation of the tint didn't look very good. It's certainly not dreadful, but it is noticeable for a number of people and a valid complaint all the same.

There's another few things I would have liked for that disc:

1) Acquire the Cantonese and English soundtracks in mono.
2) Re-translate the English subtitles in accordance with the Mandarin soundtrack.
3) Correct the ratio problem on the original theatrical trailer (maybe re-acquire it in better quality from Fortune Star?).
As long as the FOL BD is an improvement over the French DVD (which is excellent), then I'd be happy. Personally I don't rate the film that highly. OUATIC 1-3 are much better.
The French DVD is OK, but not excellent as the colours look shit compared to Dimension (ignoring the non-anamorphic state).

The Blu-Ray is likely to be the same master used for the DVD (apparently sourced from Kung Fu HD). If they managed to source the HK version with improved levels and re-translate the subtitles, that would be brilliant.

I don't want to be complaining and repeating myself (as much as I enjoy the discussions about DVD - like everyone else here) - I'd be proud and pleased to have great, bought legit DVDs to support the release, etc :) ! It's just that there's many quality issues that sadly prevent me (and a few others) from buying and supporting distributors aiming at the niche market, myself among the potential buyers, and it frustrates me when there's (likely) avoidable faults. The reason I say "likely" is because I don't know what goes on behind-the-scenes in the production of the disc.

:)
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Re: The Official "Dragon Dynasty" Thread!

Post by grim_tales »

How come tne theatrical trailer for FOF only has Cantonese?
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Re: The Official "Dragon Dynasty" Thread!

Post by Markgway »

bradavon wrote:"Your expectations are so boringly OTT, I don't believe you'll ever be 100% happy.
My expectations are realistic and I'll be happy if they get it right. Simple as that. Why am I even arguing with an idiot who knows fuck all about anything to do with HK cinema?
I don't mean just you Mark, Romero and others are just as far stuck up their own arses when it comes to expectations.
Trust you to bring arses into it.
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Re: The Official "Dragon Dynasty" Thread!

Post by grim_tales »

Subtitles are important to get right. Eg the DD DVD of Come Drink With Me had very bad subs and so did a UK DVD of God of Gamblers, or A Better Tomorrow.
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Re: The Official "Dragon Dynasty" Thread!

Post by romerojpg »

Wow Brad, what a cock merchant you are. You have fuck all clue what others expect, you think you do as you are such a big headed idiot.
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Re: The Official "Dragon Dynasty" Thread!

Post by grim_tales »

Theyre not Hollywood movies but expecting good picture, original language, uncut, good subs is hardly excessive.
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Re: The Official "Dragon Dynasty" Thread!

Post by romerojpg »

Well Brad thinks so, as he knows better :lol:
I guess that is why he does really good quality reviews for websites, and actually does write ups on new discs from around the world and compares what is out there to find out whats what. Ahhh he doesnt....
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Re: The Official "Dragon Dynasty" Thread!

Post by bradavon »

Markgway wrote:My expectations are realistic and I'll be happy if they get it right. Simple as that. Why am I even arguing with an idiot who knows fuck all about anything to do with HK cinema?
That's completely irrelevance. It's all about expectations and yours (+ others) are ridiculously unrealistic. There are certain films that I've yet to ever see the majority happy with. Fist of Legend is one of those films people love so much, they'll never stop bitching about.

Besides your expectations literally cannot be realistic, because in all the releases Fist of Legend and other films, they've still not got right (in your eyes). It would be realistic to expect an improvement but not perfection, which is what you're asking for.
grim_tales wrote:Theyre not Hollywood movies but expecting good picture, original language, uncut, good subs is hardly excessive.
Obviously not, when you put it that way but "expecting good picture" is so wildly subjective it's almost pointless bringing up.

For example. I said the French Fist of Legend was excellent, Chenlung said it isn't. Where do you go from there?
romerojpg wrote:I guess that is why he does really good quality reviews for websites, and actually does write ups on new discs from around the world and compares what is out there to find out whats what. Ahhh he doesnt....
Neither do you. You just bullshit (a lot) and claim you do, but never manage to actually show us one.
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Re: The Official "Dragon Dynasty" Thread!

Post by Yi-Long »

bradavon wrote:
Yi-Long wrote:I actually do have the korean director's cut on DVD, but I'm keeping that sealed cause it's the pretty rare 3-disc Yupki Girl version (with heartshaped soundtrack).
That's the one I have. Decent PQ, Full-rate DTS, Director's Cut and English subs. Like I said the subtitles are perfectly fine. There are far worse DVDs that need fixing, than this one.
You have the same very limited edition? And you watched it!?!?? I'm keeping mine sealed :D

But I believe there isn't a new release out yet of the director's cut? It's never been released in the west I believe (even though there is an 'international version'(!)), and the Hong Kong version has an altered soundtrack.

I don't mind the subs. I watched the DC of the movie, with the 'HOH' subs, on a chinese bootleg when the movie was still very new, which made me order the korean LE back then.
p.s - You said DOBW had no decent version. I was just pointing out, it does. I've seen DOBW twice and both times I found it pretty good but no more. It's no CE, ITMFL or 2046 for sure. The latter two being fantastic.
It's my absolute favourite movie of all time. Flawless performance by Leslie in a very deep and layered role. The new Blu-ray is supposedly ok quality (HK BR), but it isn't region-free, so sadly I won't be picking that up.
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Re: The Official "Dragon Dynasty" Thread!

Post by Yi-Long »

bradavon wrote:
Markgway wrote:My expectations are realistic and I'll be happy if they get it right. Simple as that. Why am I even arguing with an idiot who knows fuck all about anything to do with HK cinema?
That's completely irrelevance. It's all about expectations and yours (+ others) are ridiculously unrealistic. There are certain films that I've yet to ever see the majority happy with. Fist of Legend is one of those films people love so much, they'll never stop bitching about.
That's because, despite the fact that this is one of the very best martial arts movies EVERRRRRrrrrrrr, it just has never gotten a good release.

That's not me being very demanding. It's me just wanting the uncut version, with good quality video (doesn't have to be 'great' or 'perfect', just good, and without needless altering/tweaking, like the recent and needless colour-tweaking of the UK release of Ip Man), and the original soundtrack. That's fucking ALL. How hard is that to just deliver!?

I don't even ask for a making-off, behind the scenes interviews, commentaries, extra trailers, or whatever. I just want the movie in proper condition, uncut and in the original language. I hardly think that's asking for 'perfection'. That's just asking for the basics!
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Re: The Official "Dragon Dynasty" Thread!

Post by romerojpg »

bradavon wrote:Neither do you. You just bullshit (a lot) and claim you do, but never manage to actually show us one.
:lol: The only thing anyone wants to show you, is the door. Fuck off this site, as pretty much everyone hates you.
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Re: The Official "Dragon Dynasty" Thread!

Post by gasteropod »

Don't be silly Romero, no one hates Brad, and you know you'd miss him really.
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Re: The Official "Dragon Dynasty" Thread!

Post by Shingster »

The simple fact of the matter is if a film has recieved a decent transfer on DVD then there's no reason why a decent Blu-ray transfer shouldn't be achievable. The French, German and old Dimension VHS releases of Fist of Legend proved that workable prints should be available for this film, so it is hardly "unrealistic" for fans to expect a solid representation on BD.
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Re: The Official "Dragon Dynasty" Thread!

Post by gasteropod »

Yi-Long wrote:and without needless altering/tweaking, like the recent and needless colour-tweaking of the UK release of Ip Man)
Could it be to do with scanning the master though, like if their software has different reference levels or something, rather than purposefully tweaking it.
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Re: The Official "Dragon Dynasty" Thread!

Post by grim_tales »

bradavon wrote:
Markgway wrote:My expectations are realistic and I'll be happy if they get it right. Simple as that. Why am I even arguing with an idiot who knows fuck all about anything to do with HK cinema?
That's completely irrelevance. It's all about expectations and yours (+ others) are ridiculously unrealistic. There are certain films that I've yet to ever see the majority happy with. Fist of Legend is one of those films people love so much, they'll never stop bitching about.

Besides your expectations literally cannot be realistic, because in all the releases Fist of Legend and other films, they've still not got right (in your eyes). It would be realistic to expect an improvement but not perfection, which is what you're asking for.
grim_tales wrote:Theyre not Hollywood movies but expecting good picture, original language, uncut, good subs is hardly excessive.
Obviously not, when you put it that way but "expecting good picture" is so wildly subjective it's almost pointless bringing up.

For example. I said the French Fist of Legend was excellent, Chenlung said it isn't. Where do you go from there?
romerojpg wrote:I guess that is why he does really good quality reviews for websites, and actually does write ups on new discs from around the world and compares what is out there to find out whats what. Ahhh he doesnt....
Neither do you. You just bullshit (a lot) and claim you do, but never manage to actually show us one.
Good point, I'd take the French transfer over any print that is non anamorphic.
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Re: The Official "Dragon Dynasty" Thread!

Post by Yi-Long »

gasteropod wrote:
Yi-Long wrote:and without needless altering/tweaking, like the recent and needless colour-tweaking of the UK release of Ip Man)
Could it be to do with scanning the master though, like if their software has different reference levels or something, rather than purposefully tweaking it.
I have no idea what caused it, and TBH, I don't care. It shouldn't have gotten past quality control, and it shouldn't have been released that way. However, given the fact that there's a difference in the colour between the first part of the movie and the rest, it seems like it was an intentional tweaking.
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Re: The Official "Dragon Dynasty" Thread!

Post by Shingster »

Yi-Long wrote:I have no idea what caused it, and TBH, I don't care. It shouldn't have gotten past quality control, and it shouldn't have been released that way. However, given the fact that there's a difference in the colour between the first part of the movie and the rest, it seems like it was an intentional tweaking.
Well you're coming to that conclusion based on comparisons to the HK release which is most likely deeply over saturated, the Mainland DVD seems like a much better balanced release and the UK release isn't too far off that.
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Re: The Official "Dragon Dynasty" Thread!

Post by Ivan Drago »

bradavon wrote:"Good HD picture" is so open to subjective opinion. There's no way you (or Romero) will ever be happy. Perfection taking literally, simply isn't possible for these films and to expect so, is expecting too much. There's nothing "really" wrong with the DD DVDs (save for cuts maybe) but bitch you will still.

Take HKL's FOF PE for example. You bitched for years about FOF should be in Mandarin. The HKL PE gave us this but oh no, it was then suddenly too pink. Ignoring the fact, otherwise it looks fantastic. Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Yawn. Your expectations are so boringly OTT, I don't believe you'll ever be 100% happy.

It just gets so dull to hear "all I expect is decent", when frankly that's bollocks. It's not as if we're talking Hollywood movies here. These films have been kept in such low quality and made on such low budgets. To expect perfection, is simply unrealistic. I don't mean just you Mark, Romero and others are just as far stuck up their own arses when it comes to expectations.

As long as the FOL BD is an improvement over the French DVD (which is excellent), then I'd be happy. Personally I don't rate the film that highly. OUATIC 1-3 are much better.
You're a total moron you know that.

The problem with FOF is not that they happened to have a print that pinkish (fair enough, given the Eastmancolor stocks of the time), but that they took an existing good transfer and MADE it pinker, which is unecessary.

A lot of the problems with HK films on DVD are down to pointless tampering. I don't the prints looking beat up because, you're right, they are old and poorly stored films. But the fact simple errors are constantly made on dvds of HK movies all over the world is rather wearying.

And I don't know why you come here. You have no knowledge and limited passion, yet dare to tell people off for caring more then you do.

No wonder DVD Times banned you. I'd prefer to see you banned here but, hey, I enjoy ripping you to shreds.
bradavon wrote:
but I guess you're more intelligence than me.
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Re: The Official "Dragon Dynasty" Thread!

Post by Markgway »

gasteropod wrote:Don't be silly Romero, no one hates Brad, and you know you'd miss him really.
Actually I was enjoying Bullets more whilst Brad was away. We didn't seem to have any arguments.
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Re: The Official "Dragon Dynasty" Thread!

Post by saltysam »

Brad can be a total cock but i would'nt advocate banning,that's plain daft. What's he done for that to be even mentioned :? He's been around for years and has an uncanny ability to piss people off but i i don't think he does it out of malice,i honestly believe he's extremely naive and pretty clueless and doesn't realise what he's saying half the time. My problem with him is he never takes heed of the regular abuse he receives on here and blunders on blindly until the next bust-up. It's not just here,look how he was banned from dvdforums and pissed of that site's owner,Colin. it's not just us who he cluelessly winds up. Besides he's a great source of entertainment,look at Mark's sig for example,or when he asked what happened at the end of TWBB,allegedly one of his favorite films :lol: it's clear when it comes to HK movies in particular he can't hold a candle knowledge-wise to most of you guys,neither can i but it's hardly a hanging offence :cool:
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Re: The Official "Dragon Dynasty" Thread!

Post by bradavon »

Yi-Long wrote:You have the same very limited edition? And you watched it!?!?? I'm keeping mine sealed :D
I sure have. I couldn't have seen the film otherwise. I even convinced my brother to see it with me.
Yi-Long wrote:But I believe there isn't a new release out yet of the director's cut? It's never been released in the west I believe
No no new release but it doesn't really need one. Hopefully the eventual Korean BD will fix the subs. It is damn annoying no Western distributor has picked it up. Sure it's "not action" but it's very popular. I love to see those deleted scenes with subs.
Yi-Long wrote:That's because, despite the fact that this is one of the very best martial arts movies EVERRRRRrrrrrrr, it just has never gotten a good release.
IMO wrong. The French DVD is excellent. I used to own it with fansubs added. Well a DVD-Rip which is pretty much the same. I say IMO because this is all so subjective.
Yi-Long wrote:That's not me being very demanding. It's me just wanting the uncut version, with good quality video (doesn't have to be 'great' or 'perfect', just good, and without needless altering/tweaking, like the recent and needless colour-tweaking of the UK release of Ip Man), and the original soundtrack. That's fucking ALL. How hard is that to just deliver!?
Did you forget English subs too? Because if not, the French DVD gave us this :).
Shingster wrote:The simple fact of the matter is if a film has recieved a decent transfer on DVD then there's no reason why a decent Blu-ray transfer shouldn't be achievable. The French, German and old Dimension VHS releases of Fist of Legend proved that workable prints should be available for this film, so it is hardly "unrealistic" for fans to expect a solid representation on BD.
Agreed.
Ivan Drago wrote:You're a total moron you know that.
You're most welcome. If you're calling me a moron because I don't go along with the lemming attitude of "we must bash the Fist of Legend" release, then I guess I must be a moron.

Don't get me wrong, obviously there's nothing wrong with expecting what Yi, Mark etc... is after. It's just that history of this title has shown us, it's simply very unlikely to ever going to happen. That and "good picture" is so ridiculously subjective.

Pink aside the Fist of Fury PE has a fantastic picture, the best I've ever seen it. Does the fact it's overly pink mean it's a disaster? Not at all.
Ivan Drago wrote:The problem with FOF is not that they happened to have a print that pinkish (fair enough, given the Eastmancolor stocks of the time), but that they took an existing good transfer and MADE it pinker, which is unecessary.
No one said it was perfect.
Ivan Drago wrote:A lot of the problems with HK films on DVD are down to pointless tampering. I don't the prints looking beat up because, you're right, they are old and poorly stored films.
Agreed. The Gladiator BD is easily the best the films ever looked (hence why I upgraded to it) but you just know it could've been so much more. The point being, I still bought it though, as to keep my inferior DVD in the hope it will be improved is just silly.
Ivan Drago wrote:And I don't know why you come here. You have no knowledge and limited passion, yet dare to tell people off for caring more then you do.
To give you something to get up for in the morning.
Ivan Drago wrote:No wonder DVD Times banned you. I'd prefer to see you banned here but, hey, I enjoy ripping you to shreds.
WTF! Get a life dude. That was about 4 years ago. Move on. I did.
Markgway wrote:Actually I was enjoying Bullets more whilst Brad was away. We didn't seem to have any arguments.
Where did I go? I had 3 weeks in India late last year but that was yonks ago.
saltysam wrote:Brad can be a total cock but i would'nt advocate banning,that's plain daft. What's he done for that to be even mentioned :?
It does make me laugh when members say I should get banned. Get a life guys. WTF! Seriously this is an Internet forum. I don't mean you Salty but those who actually get that bothered by it all. Besides, if you read what I said, it wasn't exactly heavy. Pretty tame really and just a differing opinion. One that goes against the grain, on Asian film forums, granted.
saltysam wrote:He's been around for years and has an uncanny ability to piss people off but i i don't think he does it out of malice
We agree on this much.
saltysam wrote:It's not just here,look how he was banned from dvdforums and pissed of that site's owner,Colin. it's not just us who he cluelessly winds up.
No offence but if that's your only other source of evidence, that's pretty weak. You forget all the other forums I post on and have never caused trouble. Most not regularly but even so.
saltysam wrote:Besides he's a great source of entertainment
You were only saying the other day, the forum was dull :D.
saltysam wrote:it's clear when it comes to HK movies in particular he can't hold a candle knowledge-wise to most of you guys,neither can i but it's hardly a hanging offence :cool:
I've never understood why it's a prerequisite for some members that you are, before being allowed to post. I've never proclaimed to be any HK expert and don't want to be. A hell of lot of it is excellent but a hell of a lot is crud.

If I had to pick (and thankfully I don't) French and Spanish cinema holds more interest than HK cinema. Next probably Japanese.
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Re: The Official "Dragon Dynasty" Thread!

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I never said Brad should be banned. Just that his constant winding up of posters can be tiresome. Yes, it CAN also be entertaining and without Brad I'd have no sigs. But I find it hard to believe one person could possibly be THAT annoying and ignorant without it being intentional. Be honest, Brad, are you a troll?
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Re: The Official "Dragon Dynasty" Thread!

Post by bradavon »

Re-reading I'm not sure anyone did. Romero just wishes I'd "fuck off".
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Re: The Official "Dragon Dynasty" Thread!

Post by saltysam »

bradavon wrote:Re-reading I'm not sure anyone did. Romero just wishes I'd "fuck off".
Ivan said he'd prefer to see you banned,however he enjoys "ripping you to shreds" :)
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