Mark's Questions on HD!

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 02 Dec 2007, 17:58

Hypothetical question, guys:

Say I have a combo player, and say I want to buy Enter the Dragon (UK disc), which is available on both HD and BR, and say they were the exact same price, same contents, etc... which would YOU buy and why?

BTW. The UK DVD of Kung Fu Hustle was uncut.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 02 Dec 2007, 18:17

Markgway wrote:Say I have a combo player, and say I want to buy Enter the Dragon (UK disc), which is available on both HD and BR, and say they were the exact same price, same contents, etc... which would YOU buy and why?

I'd personally pick the BD as I reckon if I had to pick BD has the edge to win BUT in reality it's only got a minute edge. BD has much more hardware support, it's still really only Toshiba releasing HD-DVD Players (Pioneer, Panasonic, Philips, Samsung are all BD exclusive, except for Samsung's Combo of course). Software support is about equal.

Frankly I'm only using that reason as there is no other. In reality if you look around price almost always comes into it, that could swing the HD-DVD for me.

Warner don't support BD Regional Coding so in the case of Enter the Dragon a UK BD will work in a Region A USA Player just fine. Other studios I may pick up the HD-DVD as they may have employed Region B regional coding, if you consider I plan to import a Region A Player from America.

A better example would be New Line who also support both formats but are using Regional Coding on BD. It's precisely why they've delayed many HD-DVD versions until the film has been released more worldwide. As I am planning to buy a Region A Player I'm still getting the BD of Pan's Labyrinth though.

Like I previously explained I cannot think of any examples where BD Regional Coding has stumped someone though. For example EIV use BD Regional coding but all their films are available elsewhere on HD-DVD or USA Region A BD anyway. In most cases if you cannot playback a BD because of Regional Coding there will be a HD-DVD somewhere else in the world.

Even then if you get a Region A Player you'll already be fine for importing from America, Canada, Japan, Hong Kong and South Korea. That only leaves the UK and Australia and they tend to be the same studio that has released in America anyway (such as Fox). With the exception of Tartan (whose BDs are Region Free) most independent lables are supporting HD-DVD anyway.

EIV are the only company I can think of who don't support HD-DVD but do use Region B encoding on their BDs. I can live without EIV discs

Optimum UK are supporting both HD-DVD and BD but they too are not using Regional Coding on their BDs. Their recent Pan's Labyrinth BD is Region Free!

In the case of Warner the discs are identical, they're the same discs. The UK versions have the same FBI warnings and they use the same extras and HD Master for both BD and HD-DVD. Some have complained this reduces the bitrate at the expense of BD (considering it has 20Gb more to play with on DL discs) but there is absolutely no evidence to back this up.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 02 Dec 2007, 20:16

Thanks for trying to explain... it's appreciated.

Warner don't support BD Regional Coding so in the case of Enter the Dragon a UK BD will work in a Region A USA Player just fine

...and this works vice-versa with an American ETD BR playing on a UK/Reg-A machine...right?

I'd love the Samsung-combi because it cuts down on choosing between BR and HD which to me isn't an option (otherwise I'd have to buy two players: one for each format).

A hypothetical example of a potential problem:

I have a Reg-B BR player. I want to buy Die Hard (Reg-coded) but find that the American version is better than the UK version (let's pretend it's censored...) and due to exclusivity there's no HD release. What do I do?

Inevitibly situations like this will arise. Maybe not often, but sometimes...

As I am planning to buy a Region A Player I'm still getting the BD of Pan's Labyrinth though.

Would you have to get some kind of voltage adapter? Isn't importing electronics a bit dodgy safety-wise?

Another Q: What would you say is the minimum size TV to make HD worth it?

romerojpg · Post by **romerojpg** » 02 Dec 2007, 20:31

Markgway wrote: Another Q: What would you say is the minimum size TV to make HD worth it?

32 inches you will see a difference, no compression blocking etc.. and it will look a lot better. If you sit close to that 32 incher that is. If you sit 15 foota away, then its pointless.

But anything above 32 inches and it will be better. 37 inches + and your getting better. I sit 3 foot away from my 40 incher while watching HD, its like being in the cinema

I want a biger TV, but hell; I aint made of money

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 02 Dec 2007, 21:13

Thanks. You're TV has to be in proportion to the size of room and distance from viewing position so.... I was thinking a min of "37 and a max of "40 for us.

saltysam · Post by **saltysam** » 02 Dec 2007, 21:54

bradavon wrote: BD has much more hardware support, it's still really only Toshiba releasing HD-DVD Players (Pioneer, Panasonic, Philips, Samsung are all BD exclusive, except for Samsung's Combo of course). Software support is about equal.

take away the ps3 which is a console and toshiba sell more standalone players than the others sell blu-ray machines combined.no doubt due to the price differential. there always seems to be issues with standalone BD players and some discs,the latest being the Die Hard set.

bradavon wrote:Like I previously explained I cannot think of any examples where BD Regional Coding has stumped someone though.

where can i buy The Crow to play in my region A blu-ray/hd-dvd player then

House of a 1000 Corpses is another catalogue title region locked A. it's true though,an awful lot of usa blu-ray exclusives are appearing on hd-dvd elsewhere often with superior transfers (underworld evolution,silent hill for example) downside is the imports are often expensive.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 02 Dec 2007, 23:03

Markgway wrote:Thanks for trying to explain... it's appreciated.

No worries. I've been doing HD research for the past 6 months. It's a minefield. Don't get me started on HD Audio, that's really complicated

Markgway wrote:...and this works vice-versa with an American ETD BR playing on a UK/Reg-A machine...right?

Yep. Like I said it's the same disc and has no regional coding either. HD is HD!

The UK is Region B

There are three different compression types used (MPEG2 and two types of MPEG4) but ALL Players it being HD-DVD or BD support them but otherwise they're all the same. They're all 1080x1920p at 24fps, unlike DVD there is only one Video standard ever used.

Actually some early HD Discs maybe in a slightly different format but Players still play those fine.

Markgway wrote:I'd love the Samsung-combi because it cuts down on choosing between BR and HD which to me isn't an option (otherwise I'd have to buy two players: one for each format).

Exactly! Hence why I'm waiting patiently.

LG's BH100 released earlier this year didn't support HD-DVD properly but their BH200 does. That is also due around January but it's otherwise not as good as the Samsung Player. Prices look to be about the same. Denon have also said they're releasing a Combo Player but other than that nothing.

Markgway wrote:I have a Reg-B BR player. I want to buy Die Hard (Reg-coded) but find that the American version is better than the UK version (let's pretend it's censored...) and due to exclusivity there's no HD release. What do I do?

Sulk and hope a HD-DVD version comes! I never said the situation was perfect. Thankfully that in reality is few and far between. I can't think of any real world examples.

You've picked a good example as Fox do use Regional Coding and don't support HD-DVD. Thankfully in this case Die Hard isn't cut on UK DVD so you could just pick up the UK BD but I take your point.

It's not like you have any choice. BD Regional Coding is by all accounts considerably stronger than DVD. There is absolutely nothing on the horizon about breaking it.

Markgway wrote:Inevitibly situations like this will arise. Maybe not often, but sometimes...

The alternative wait for 2, 5, 10 years on the off chance just so you can play the odd title. They are very few and far between and as such as soon as the Samsung Combo comes out I'll be buying one.

It ticks 99% of the boxes for me, especially as it can play both HD-DD and BD. Get a USA Player and in most cases you'll be fine. Taking your cut example it's much more likely to be cut in the UK to America. If a Far East studio decides to release a Region A BD you'll be fine with a USA Player too.

Markgway wrote:Would you have to get some kind of voltage adapter? Isn't importing electronics a bit dodgy safety-wise?

Yes but they're not expensive on eBay. Why would it be dodgy? Only a fool would ever plug it in without a converter, thankfully as they use different types of plugs in America it's not like you could ever do it by accident.

It's likely MovieTyme will stock the Samsung. Many people on this forum and others have imported their HD Player form them without problem.

If BDs weren't regional coded I'd not be considering importing a USA Player but as they are and Region A is by far the widest spread region I am. You can forget Region C (the last one) as it's places like India and Africa.

Markgway wrote:Another Q: What would you say is the minimum size TV to make HD worth it?

You can get a HD Ready TV as low as 22". Don't DVDs look better on a very small TV? Why would HD be any different?

I'd say the "sweet spot" is 32" though. They're not MEGA HUGE but aren't also Tiny too. If you do buy a new TV try and make sure it's FULL HD so it supports the full 1920x1080 resolution (instead of HD Ready which support HD's 1270x720).

FULL HD TVs start at 37"!

saltysam wrote:take away the ps3 which is a console and toshiba sell more standalone players than the others sell blu-ray machines combined.no doubt due to the price differential.

True. I was purely talking about it from a point of view of "how many support each format" than price or performance though.

saltysam wrote:where can i buy The Crow to play in my region A blu-ray/hd-dvd player then

I also said I can live without EIV

. They're a dreadful distributor who keep reusing their DVD soundtracks on their BDs instead of proper HD Audio. I only own a handful or their DVDs.

I then said only EIV use Regional coding on BD in the UK, unless I'm wrong? There simply aren't that many "independent studios" that use BD, the majority are opting to use HD-DVD. I guess a time could come when an Australian studio (they're also Region B) releases a killer title but it's not happened yet.

I also said it's not perfect. You know the examples you've picked are in the minority. Obviously it should be better but the point I'm making (as you know full well

) is that's not as bad as it could be, and certainly not a reason to wait (possibly forever).

I'm sure Miramax USA on BD Region A or some European studio we've never heard of will release it on HD-DVD at some point.

saltysam wrote:House of a 1000 Corpses is another catalogue title region locked A.

Well that would obviously work on a USA Player but I take your point.

saltysam wrote:It's true though,an awful lot of usa blu-ray exclusives are appearing on hd-dvd elsewhere often with superior transfers (underworld evolution, silent hill for example).

Exactly! That and most BD studios don't use Regional Coding anyway.

Mark: Bookmark this site - http://bluray.liesinc.net/

Just a cursory check down that list will see a lot more saying YES than NO. It's updated regularly and will tell you if any title is Region Locked or not. The majority of the BD titles I'm interested in are Region Free, and the ones that aren't are Region A anyway.

I don't know about you but I only plan to get HD Discs of titles I really want. They're just to expensive to buy as many as I did DVD. I like you don't need hundreds of discs any more too.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 03 Dec 2007, 11:50

bradavon wrote:LG's BH100 released earlier this year didn't support HD-DVD properly but their BH200 does. That is also due around January but it's otherwise not as good as the Samsung Player. Prices look to be about the same. Denon have also said they're releasing a Combo Player but other than that nothing.

I wonder why so few companies are doing combi players? Surely it makes sense for the companies with non-exclusive deals to take advantage of the market gap?

It's not like you have any choice. BD Regional Coding is by all accounts considerably stronger than DVD. There is absolutely nothing on the horizon about breaking it.

It'll happen eventually...

It ticks 99% of the boxes for me, especially as it can play both HD-DD and BD. Get a USA Player and in most cases you'll be fine. Taking your cut example it's much more likely to be cut in the UK to America. If a Far East studio decides to release a Region A BD you'll be fine with a USA Player too.

Yeah, I woudn't even touch a Region C player. My concern about going with Reg-A is that it would cut off your own Region (there's bound to be some good shit that's UK only as is the case with DVD)

Only a fool would ever plug it in without a converter, thankfully as they use different types of plugs in America it's not like you could ever do it by accident.

Are convertors safe? I'm not up on electricals but it seems iffy messing about with voltage.

I'd say the "sweet spot" is 32" though. They're not MEGA HUGE but aren't also Tiny too. If you do buy a new TV try and make sure it's FULL HD so it supports the full 1920x1080 resolution (instead of HD Ready which support HD's 1270x720).

Cost is a factor though. The full HD TVs are near a £1,000 aren't they? I like the "37 Samsung (can't recall the model) but I don't think it's FULL HD. Not that I suspect the average Joe would notice.

I don't know about you but I only plan to get HD Discs of titles I really want. They're just to expensive to buy as many as I did DVD. I like you don't need hundreds of discs any more too.

Same here. I've slashed my DVD collection way down and what's left will be the titles that are worth owning on HD/BR.

gasteropod · Post by **gasteropod** » 03 Dec 2007, 13:18

Mark, full 1080p HD isn't important with such small screen sizes, you want to be going over 42 inches for that to have a benefit. So if you want 32" for instance, 'HD Ready' will definitely suffice.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 03 Dec 2007, 15:36

Markgway wrote:I wonder why so few companies are doing combi players? Surely it makes sense for the companies with non-exclusive deals to take advantage of the market gap?

The trouble is almost all of them have exclusive deals with one of the two companies.

I read Samsung got in some trouble with the BDA (Blu-ray Disc Association) and that's why their Combo has been delayed. I've not seen any evidence of that but it could explain for the delays.

Markgway wrote:It'll happen eventually...

Correct but how long? DVD regional coding was broken almost at launch. My feeling is if it was "simple" it would've been broken yonks ago. I do know hackers have managed to extract the film from both BD and HD-DVD to play back on a PC but that's obviously not the honey pot we all want.

That and BD has another level of protection which has yet to be used on BDs themselves but if it where it would mean users would have to install a new key so the disc will play. I "think" that's how it works I've not read up on it.

I remember buying a Samsung 709 6 months after DVD was launched it had several remote control regional hacks. Why has this not happened for BD? I've no idea but it hasn't.

Markgway wrote:Yeah, I woudn't even touch a Region C player. My concern about going with Reg-A is that it would cut off your own Region (there's bound to be some good shit that's UK only as is the case with DVD)

Possibly but in the case of DVD there is just DVD, with the exception of EIV all independent labels are using HD-DVD or both. I feel I've waited long enough and as soon as the Samsung Combo is out (and assuming it doesn't turn out to have a glaring fault, it's looking good) I'll be getting one.

If we had even an inkling to BD Regional Coding being broken I'd wait but we have nothing!

Markgway wrote:Are convertors safe? I'm not up on electricals but it seems iffy messing about with voltage.

I believe so. They do the job they're designed to do after all, you're not messing with voltage they're designed for this job in mind.

I know Cooey for example over at Imports Forum imported both his HD-DVD and BD Players from MovieTyme and has used a Voltage Convertor from eBay without any problems. He's sold his BD Player but still uses the same HD-DVD Player. I think he imported them as they were cheaper, oh and he could get them much earlier.

All you do is plug in the USA plug to the USA socket on the converter then the UK plug on it to the wall. I believe that's it. It's not as if it's new technology.

If you think about it that's all devices with multi voltage do, except obviously they support both voltages.

Markgway wrote:Cost is a factor though. The full HD TVs are near a £1,000 aren't they? I like the "37 Samsung (can't recall the model) but I don't think it's FULL HD.

I believe they are but as I'm happy for now with my 32" I've not looked. I was just saying if you can afford it FULL HD is better, and more futureproof.

Oh and make sure whatever you buy it has at least 2 HDMI ports (3 if possible) and Freeview. My TV only has one HDMI and I wish it had more. HDMI will eventually completely replace Scart. It's the future connection type and more and more things are using it all the time. You can even get cheap Freeview boxes with HDMI now.

Agreed Samsung are a great value vs. quality make.

Markgway wrote:Not that I suspect the average Joe would notice.

I reckon they would 1280x720 is some jump from 720x576 (PAL DVD) but 1920x1080 is jump again. Plus if you can afford it don't you want the best out of your HD Discs?

saltysam · Post by **saltysam** » 03 Dec 2007, 16:59

It's not really essential for a tv to have more than one hdmi port nowadays as switchboxes have become so cheap. my set is a 40' 1080i set, i suspect 1080p would be minimally better but it'd be very hard to tell. as for region coding it's in our interests for both formats to survive,if sony wins they'll region-code everything to hell imo.

gasteropod · Post by **gasteropod** » 03 Dec 2007, 17:18

saltysam wrote:my set is a 40' 1080i set, i suspect 1080p would be minimally better but it'd be very hard to tell.

Put it this way: 720p is preferable to 1080i.

saltysam · Post by **saltysam** » 03 Dec 2007, 18:30

gasteropod wrote:
saltysam wrote:my set is a 40' 1080i set, i suspect 1080p would be minimally better but it'd be very hard to tell.
Put it this way: 720p is preferable to 1080i.

not to my eyes.can't see the difference myself.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 03 Dec 2007, 18:59

I'd likely go for a "37 so you guys think an HD Ready would be good enough? Unfortunately money is an issue since spending near a thousand quid for a TV alone isn't an option. This was one that caught my eye: Samsung LE37R88BD. Any comments?

saltysam · Post by **saltysam** » 03 Dec 2007, 19:01

mine's a samsung and it's been pretty decent over the 18 months i've had it. they are known to be on the most reliable makers of lcd tellies

if i were to ugrade mine it'd only because i want even bigger

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 03 Dec 2007, 20:05

saltysam wrote:It's not really essential for a tv to have more than one hdmi port nowadays as switchboxes have become so cheap.

If you're buying a new TV anyway I'd definitely say it is. It's obviously more hassle you can avoid by having to use a switch box. I agreed they're not a reason to buy a new TV alone though.

saltysam wrote:My set is a 40' 1080i set, i suspect 1080p would be minimally better but it'd be very hard to tell.

I hear not. Why do you say that? It's some increase jump in resolution.

A 1080i image is interlaced and has to be downconverted to 1368x768 or whatever resolution of HD Ready TVs is too.

gasteropod wrote:Put it this way: 720p is preferable to 1080i.

Not always. For SD DVD Upscaling yes but for a HD Player to output to 720p it has use it's scaler to down scale and many HD Players have inferior scalers. So outputting it at full resolution and letting your TV do the work can be better. In short try both and see for yourself.

Personally I cannot tell any difference between 720p and 1080i on DVDs so use 1080i as it sounds better

. Rubbish reason I know but when they both look the same anyway.

Then again DVD Upscaling is part trickery and part a tweak. It's certainly nothing HUGE!

Markgway wrote:I'd likely go for a "37 so you guys think an HD Ready would be good enough?

You'll definitely see a big improvement so I guess it all depends whether you want to go the extra mile and fork out the cash.

Markgway wrote:Unfortunately money is an issue since spending near a thousand quid for a TV alone isn't an option.

You've answered your own question

. FULL HD TVs do cost a fortune. I too would have to seriously consider if I wanted to spend that much.

Thankfully HD Ready TVs with Freeview and 2+ HDMI ports don't cost any more. Both even if you don't need them future proof it.

Markgway wrote:This was one that caught my eye: Samsung LE37R88BD. Any comments?

It looks just the job! Here are some nice real world pictures of it, scroll down:

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=505294

And here is an amazing post all about Samsung LCDs, everything you ever want to know but were afraid to ask:

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=513376

It includes 3 reviews too! The R87, R87 and R88 all look to be essentially the same model depending where you buy it.

I'd definitely have a good read of that thread and also the three reviews!

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 03 Dec 2007, 22:59

Markgway wrote:Hypothetical question, guys:

Say I have a combo player, and say I want to buy Enter the Dragon (UK disc), which is available on both HD and BR, and say they were the exact same price, same contents, etc... which would YOU buy and why?.

Does anyone else care to answer Mark's original question?

I'd also be interested to hear answers too.

gasteropod · Post by **gasteropod** » 04 Dec 2007, 02:08

I'd buy blu-ray because at the moment it's winning, lol.

saltysam · Post by **saltysam** » 04 Dec 2007, 13:33

gasteropod wrote:I'd buy blu-ray because at the moment it's winning, lol.

both formats are going to be around for ages.hd-dvd have some fantastic exclusives.why tie yourself to one region locked format when a combo player that seems to tick all the boxes is on the way?

EvaUnit02 · Post by **EvaUnit02** » 04 Dec 2007, 14:11

Because he's a Sony fanboy.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 04 Dec 2007, 18:20

I believe Gasteropod was answering Mark's question not which format overall he prefers.

gasteropod · Post by **gasteropod** » 04 Dec 2007, 18:41

EvaUnit02 wrote:Because he's a Sony fanboy.

Am I fuck, I think they're an evil company.

saltysam · Post by **saltysam** » 04 Dec 2007, 20:10

bradavon wrote:I believe Gasteropod was answering Mark's question not which format overall he prefers.

i'll say again,why would anyone in their right mind buy into one region locked format when you can have the best of both worlds for little more cost

gasteropod · Post by **gasteropod** » 04 Dec 2007, 20:56

The question was which disc would you buy IF YOU OWNED A COMBO PLAYER!!!

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 04 Dec 2007, 21:00

Well you know I already agree with that

but Mark's question was over which you'd choose "already being to play both".

It's a good question actually.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There's talk of a Swedish Region A and Region B BD Player here:

https://www.bulletsnbabesdvd.com/forums/ ... 7748#97748

I'm posting it in the HD Thread to try and bring this one back on topic, it's probably about time we did. I'd merge the two if it were possible.